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I don't play the tabletop anymore, so I can't say which faction is popular and which is not, but the current line-up of Warhammer 40k games feels like pandering. To the wrong demographic: the super hardcore 40k fans instead of the normal sci-fi lovers. Without a wide audience, these games aren't going to sell very well, even if they are good.

3 common points:

+ Not including a clear-cut narrative, protagonists, and antagonists.

+ Including a single-player campaign for every featured faction.

+ Not featuring "evil" factions like Chaos, Drukhari, and Tyranids.

I am talking about Total War: Warhammer 40k, Dawn of War 4, and Mechanicus 2.

I love Orks, Chaos, and Nids. But I love them as antagonists to be fought against rather than as playable factions. Having good villains is a good selling point. Here is a quote: It's not hate that is important, it's the desire to annihilate. These 40k factions make good villains. I love to fight the Covenant in Halo. And I love to fight against Nazis in WW2 games.

But now we are getting narratives where every faction is treated the same. And it feels very stale. The stake is low because I don't care about who is winning or what will happen if somebody wins. None of the factions endear me. Like, I love Gabriel Angelos and Cyrus from Dawn of War 2. Angelos in Dawn of War 3 is a joke, and I fear Cyrus in Dawn of War 4 will be super forgettable due to how the campaign works and the fact that Lion El Johnson is going to be in the game.

Warhammer 40k developers need to look at normie games like Boltgun, Battlesector, Chaos Gate, and Space Marines 2. These games are uncomplicated fun, and they sold very well. Their campaigns aren't deep and only give an excuse for players to live in their power fantasy of defending humanity from aliens and heretics.

bibotot wrote:
+ Not including a clear-cut narrative, protagonists, and antagonists.

+ Not featuring "evil" factions like Chaos, Drukhari, and Tyranids.

Stopped reading here
You clearly missed the point of 40k. There are no antagonists or protagonists, everyone is committing atrocious acts for their own reasons, no one is "good".
40k is being extremely successful in a time where sci-fi classics like Star Trek and Star Wars a struggling to stay relevant, precisely because 40k is what it is. There is no need to cater to a "wide audience" when you are already one of the most successful IPs.

But on a more serious note, these games are made by separate studios and separate publishers. They pay a ton of money to GW to be allowed to use a clearly defined fraction of their IP and they need to run any story they tell by GW. Obviously they are not taking financial chances by catering to a niche audience like Drukhari. No offense to the passionate players here on dakka, but on other platforms the drukhari communities tend to be somewhere in size between imperial knights and league of votan.
I personally would absolutely love a game where you play as drukhari archon with a mix of raids, assassinations and intrigue games.

In addition, there are over 40 Warhammer 40k games available on steam right now plus a bunch of mobile games and you merely played three of them. Almost every army in the game has a game dedicated to them. Tyranids naturally make bad protagonists because they are more or less a single entity, the individual organisms have no stories to tell. It's more or less the same for demons, both factions are more or less a natural disaster.
There are quite a few games where you play characters falling to chaos. However, once someone has fallen to chaos, it's super difficult make them relatable anymore, plus there is a lot of horror involved which limits audience.

Traditional antagonist factions like orks, necrons or the inquisition have successful games dedicated to them, so it's not the general problem you make it out to be.

There is no need to cater to a "wide audience" when you are already one of the most successful IPs.

This is true for GW. But the game studios that lease the IP to make the video games also need to use marketing to generate revenue from people buying the game. GW isn't going to cover their asses. Having a clear-cut narrative simply appeals more to casual players who don't need to understand the lore too deeply to have fun.

Wait….pandering to whom exactly?

Faction can matter a bit, but tbh I think its more about "the game".

Dawn of War 4 is perhaps the question mark for me. Partly because of how badly Dawn of War 3 did. But factionwise that was SM/Orks/Eldar - which is about as "standard" as you get. The game though just wasn't very fun - especially compared to previous Dawn of Wars. Space Marines, Orks, Necrons and Ad Mech.... This might be (tech) heresy - but to my mind Necrons and Ad Mech are kind of similar. This juxtaposition arguably works narratively - and for say Mechanicus - but I'm not sure about it in Dawn of War.

I didn't play Mechanicus - but I think that's because its just not the game for me. If you somehow reskinned it so it was DE fighting GSC or something, that wouldn't change. Ditto for Marines vs CSM. Of the three this is by far the most niche, but I think "if you like this" Mechanicus was a very well received game. So I hope it does well.

I think 40k Total War will be a massive success unless its a buggy mess. I mean I can criticise Empire Total War and a system with a lot more shooting tends to break their traditional game engine. But there's huge enthusiasm, and I'm going to buy it unless its completely dead on arrival. I suspect millions of other people will do the same.

I guess the only game I've not got due to "faction" would be the newer Chaos Gate. Screw Grey Knights. But arguably this is petty. Really its that I'm not a huge X Com style game fan. So not sure why I'd like this one - even with the 40k aesthetic.

I don't play a lot of video games at all- not twitchy, so shooters are rough for me. I played a bit of the Dawn of War that was DE vs Sisters.

But my main concern is always the "wrong headedness" that people have from licensed content (be that video games or BL books) when it leads them to the actual miniatures game.

"Wow. Five space Marines can't liberate an entire planet by themselves? This isn't at all like the book I read/ video game I played."

Which is why I see all non-miniature game content as a bit of a threat to the actual "Grandfather" game, from which all of this content was supposed to flow.

SO Jidmah's post pretty much said it better than I can say it myself. The whole Protagonist/ antogonist dichotomy ideally isn't supposed to apply in the "Grandfather" game. My Tyranids AREN'T NPCs for your Marines to kick around, just as your Marines are more than mere food for my Nids.

And I think that when people talk about the recent tendency for the Imperium to increasingly be portrayed more as protagonists more often than merely another faction... Well, some of this liscensed content may bear a share of the responsibility for that.

Licensed content is important for bringing new players to the game- I don't want it to end... I just think that it should be consistent with what the "Grandfather" game is in order to avoid disappointing those who it attracts.

You're talking in part about a Total War game. Do they have clear narratives? Defined protagonists and antagonists?

Plus: the factions available on launch, if it goes anything like the Warhammer Fantasy TW games, will only be the very start. By the time you factor in the sequels and the DLCs for Warhammer TW, there's pretty much every faction you could ever want. I literally couldn't tell you what, if anything, is missing.

bibotot wrote:

I am talking about Total War: Warhammer 40k, Dawn of War 4, and Mechanicus 2.
.

You should've led with that bit of info.

bibotot wrote:
I don't play the tabletop anymore, so I can't say which faction is popular and which is not, but the current line-up of Warhammer 40k games feels like pandering. To the wrong demographic: the super hardcore 40k fans instead of the normal sci-fi lovers. Without a wide audience, these games aren't going to sell very well, even if they are good.

3 common points:

+ Not including a clear-cut narrative, protagonists, and antagonists.

+ Including a single-player campaign for every featured faction.

+ Not featuring "evil" factions like Chaos, Drukhari, and Tyranids.

I am talking about Total War: Warhammer 40k, Dawn of War 4, and Mechanicus 2.

I love Orks, Chaos, and Nids. But I love them as antagonists to be fought against rather than as playable factions. Having good villains is a good selling point. Here is a quote: It's not hate that is important, it's the desire to annihilate. These 40k factions make good villains. I love to fight the Covenant in Halo. And I love to fight against Nazis in WW2 games.

But now we are getting narratives where every faction is treated the same. And it feels very stale. The stake is low because I don't care about who is winning or what will happen if somebody wins. None of the factions endear me. Like, I love Gabriel Angelos and Cyrus from Dawn of War 2. Angelos in Dawn of War 3 is a joke, and I fear Cyrus in Dawn of War 4 will be super forgettable due to how the campaign works and the fact that Lion El Johnson is going to be in the game.

Warhammer 40k developers need to look at normie games like Boltgun, Battlesector, Chaos Gate, and Space Marines 2. These games are uncomplicated fun, and they sold very well. Their campaigns aren't deep and only give an excuse for players to live in their power fantasy of defending humanity from aliens and heretics.

You do realize that the Imperium is evil?
And it's not (or at least, shouldn't be!) subtle about it. It's openly fascist, xenophobic, and all-around terrible.

Space Marines aren't (or at least, shouldn't be!) noble defenders of humanity. They're weapons of war, monstrous killing machines that will happily purge civilians if ordered to.

Shouldn't this thread be in the "video games" subforum if the topic is more about 40K licenced video games than actual 40K tabletop wargame though?

I'm not typically even interested in most 40K licenced videogames myself. Rogue Trader was the first one of them which I felt did actual justice to the setting and its nuances.

What personally grinds my gears the most about peeps who get into 40K through the videogames is, they claim its a sci-fi setting, when its actually been "fantasy in space" from the very beginnning. Get this important distinction wrong,and you are already setting your expectations "wrong" IMHO. Its a world full of magic, monsters, bigotry, macchiavellism, ignorance, everybody is pretty horrible, the only ones having fun are the royal/rich and the psychopaths. Protagonists?

I must say I chuckled a little when "Boltgun" of all things was described as a more "normie" game than Total War...
And even Space Marine 2 makes it quite clear that the Imperium is quite a terrible place to be, even if SM are portrayed as cool killing machines.
Also I seem to lack Information about those announced games to understand the point OP os making.

OP reads like "I only want a Space Marine power fantasy kthxbye."

The OG Dawn of War was an excellent and fairly popular game that also happened to feature every faction as playable with it's own campaign.

The irony of saying sci-fi fans won't appreciate a game where you can play multiple factions when that's every single RTS in existence.

Yeah if anything giving RTS players factions they can't play as is typically one of the things that kills an RTS/interest in an RTS.

Or at least is indicative of the game having some serious flaws and its just one of a litany of them.

Unless, of course, its in early access or such and just waiting to develop those features.

We found a true unicorn : someone who thinks 40K doesn't have, somehow, enough Space Marines.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wait….pandering to whom exactly?

To the ultra hardcore fans. Which I know is the majority in DakaDakka, but only the minority of gamers.

bibotot wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wait….pandering to whom exactly?

To the ultra hardcore fans. Which I know is the majority in DakaDakka, but only the minority of gamers.

It is a basic conceit of the setting that no faction is good.

Like… that’s not an “ultra hardcore fan” thing.
It’s a core part of the setting.

I don’t want to call anyone who likes 40k not a true fan, but to any fans who think Marines or the Imperium are the good guys, I’d recommend thinking more critically.

 JNAProductions wrote:

bibotot wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wait….pandering to whom exactly?

To the ultra hardcore fans. Which I know is the majority in DakaDakka, but only the minority of gamers.

It is a basic conceit of the setting that no faction is good.

Like… that’s not an “ultra hardcore fan” thing.
It’s a core part of the setting.

I don’t want to call anyone who likes 40k not a true fan, but to any fans who think Marines or the Imperium are the good guys, I’d recommend thinking more critically.

Agreed. And also, just glancing at the DoW 4 faction roster:

Space Marines: Mandatory include in almost every 40k game.
Orks: Very different from marines in terms of playstyle, loadouts, etc. Also one of the most iconic and beloved/memed factions. Smells like broad appeal to me.
Necrons: Again, very different from both orks and marines. A good third pick if you want your factions to feel different. Comfortably one of the "more evil" factions just short of chaos and drukhari?
Ad Mech: Very meme-able/internet popular. Broad appeal.

Not trying to be a jerk here, bibotot, but this sounds like nonsense to me.

bibotot wrote:

+ Not featuring "evil" factions like Chaos, Drukhari, and Tyranids.

Just about every IP turned into game, especially an RPG allows you to play "evil". Heck even the ones that aren't. You can play a Dark Jedi in KOTOR. You can side with a Devil in Baldur's Gate. You can play as Nazi Germany and/or Imperial Japan in Axis and Allies. You can become a Vampire or a Werewolf in Skyrim etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Space Marines aren't (or at least, shouldn't be!) noble defenders of humanity. They're weapons of war, monstrous killing machines that will happily purge civilians if ordered to.

Despite all the times they were told to and didn't.

Lets also keep in mind that Warhammer has a LOT of factions which are very visually distinct. Video games have limited budgets.

Heck most RTS games have 2 or 3 factions and that's it; the ones you see like Total War Warhammer are often the result of lots of DLC and a long development window (even then that game is a huge exception to the normal for RTS).

Dawn of War 1 was the same - DLC/expansions and so forth were how they got the army count up. DoW 3 would likely have done the same if they'd had a solid good game experience that reviewed well and was popular.


TW Warhammer 40K and the upcoming Dawn of War 4 will likely be the same. X number of factions at the start and then expanding with more and more choice if they do well

 Overread wrote:
Lets also keep in mind that Warhammer has a LOT of factions which are very visually distinct. Video games have limited budgets.

This is part of why TWW 1/2/3 is so extraordinary, not only the amount of modelling but the rigging and animation of so many varied species and weapons is ludicrous.

I think OP just didn't communicate what they meant effectively.

But claiming that games sell less well because they're not just "play one campaign as a human type character and slay the ones painted with VERY BAD GUY paint" on them is baffling.

 RustyNumber wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Lets also keep in mind that Warhammer has a LOT of factions which are very visually distinct. Video games have limited budgets.

This is part of why TWW 1/2/3 is so extraordinary, not only the amount of modelling but the rigging and animation of so many varied species and weapons is ludicrous.

Indeed, until TW Warhammer most of the TW games were the same handful of human and mounted rigs. Different factions were more a case of clothing variation. They didn't have to go back to the foundations to do an entire new animation to add a new faction meanwhile for Warhammer you've things like Slaanesh fiends in the 3rd game where there's nothing else comparable before so its an entire ground up start over. Even where you've got humanoids the motions of a skaven, an ogre and human are very different to animate.


And honestly with RTS where it is in the world right now; esp fantasy RTS; its very unlikely we will ever get a game to stand next to or compete with TW Warhammer at least until such time as GW lets them do an AoS game

Well quite! I had the very first Shogun: Total War, where you could be one of about 7 different factions of Japanese and that was it. Pretty much the only distinction between them was uniform colour, and minor tweaks along the lines of 'this one has a bit better cavalry', 'this one has stronger warrior monks' etc.

Now with a fully-loaded W:TW1+2+3 a grand campaign starts out with something like 320 different factions, with all different fantasy races, monsters, war machines etc... It's insane how much detail is there.

Yeah and whilst the game has sold really well, you can tell a big part of the reason its so deep and diverse is that the team behind it just really love the setting and wanted to make that game.

Heck for many of us who grew up with TW; the idea of an official TW Warhammer game is a "dream come true" type situation.

bibotot wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wait….pandering to whom exactly?

To the ultra hardcore fans. Which I know is the majority in DakaDakka, but only the minority of gamers.

Dakka is mostly nostalgia these days. For hardcore fans you would have to look elsewhere.

Ah, yes. "pandering" to fans of non-SM factions.