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 Da Boss wrote:
In my head a lasgun shot that hits a marine has a 1 in 9 chance of scoring a disabling wound on said marine. Probably a significantly lower chance of actually killing them, but 1 in 9 chance of putting them out of the fight.

Lasguns are designed to solve a logistical problem more than a tactical one, and I think that's my favourite thing about them.

Could a guardsman snap off 10 shots before a beserker got to them across the battlefield? If so I’d say CSM wouldn’t stand a chance against the IG considering the numbers on either side

Fire ten times? Probably. With any measure of useful accuracy? Not necessarily.

I mean, anyone charging a gun line across open ground is gonna have a bad time regardless. Even Terminators.

But I’d wager those in Power Armour are going to have something of a less worse time.

I think the main benefit of Power Armour there is less “ahahaha, I am completely immune”, and more that it takes a certain volume to defeat your armour, and then a second certain volume (linked to the first, natch) to do useful, debilitating injury to the warrior beneath it.

Though one imagines just from relative resistant properties flesh is gonna have a far worse time against Lasfire than any metal armour, as it takes more of the flesh to fully dissipate the energy.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I mean, anyone charging a gun line across open ground is gonna have a bad time regardless. Even Terminators.

That is their job, though. You quoted Nightbringer earlier and Titus uses a squad of them for exactly that job, to crack open a dug-in position he had to get past, and they handle it with excellence.

It’s one of their uses, yes.

But just because you can, doesn’t mean it’s recommended. We see their use in Space Hulks and other boarding actions where it’s hard for the foe to present them with overwhelming firepower.

They’re also solid in an urban environment for much the same reason.

Sure they can literally tank lots of small arms fire. But over open ground? You’re tempting fate against heavier weapons. So unless you’re confident in your intel on what the enemy has? You still don’t want them crossing open ground if you and your overall strategy can possibly avoid it. Not only is each suit a rare, precious commodity and Chapter Relic, but the occupant is equally rare as a Space Marine Veteran.

No one wants to charge over open ground if it can be avoided, unless you are the right kind of fanatic or mindless (Orks, Tyranids, etc).

But it's still a Terminator job, and one they do well. I just disagreed with saying they -will- have a bad time. They evidently won't necessarily!

You’re still taking a risk. A calculated one, yes. Certainly if they’re Storm Bolter and Powerfist equipped they’re going to give far better than they get. And it’s still not the best use Terminators.

Been years since I read Nightbringer so forgive me not recalling the overall context of it. It’s more I recall the description of flash melted Power Armour because it stuck in my mind. I think it’s the same scene where Uriel’s sword is shattered (Heavy Bolter round?), and he then massacres the occupants of a pillbox by ripping their own Heavy Bolter off its mounting and turning it on them.

All those things happen, I’m just not sure on the exact order and timing.

Regardless of what GW staffers/authors come up with, I don't think a one individual charging over truly open ground would be a common scenario.

Marines condense a lot of combat power into a pretty small package. They also have extreme mobility at their disposal. As this means the Marines will tend to be choosing their battlefields more often than not (certainly against human traitors), it makes it unlikely that 50 lascannon could ever be arrayed against an individual squad.

If we are talking about dug-in emplacements, then a single marine squad can condense down to a really sharp point so a limited length of the line, and therefore a limited number of opfor would be able to draw a bead on them. Autosenses means that the Marines know how many troops face them, and where they are to a good level of accuracy. Taking even very old school tactics, half the squad takes firing positions to cover the advance of an assault party. Any opfor that poke their heads out over a parapet, or into a firing slit get a bolt round to the aforesaid head.

Boosted physiology and power armour gets the assault party across the open ground pretty quickly, and then it gets all up close, personal and very messy. Power armour also basically prevents any lucky shots from making much of an impact.

So even in this kind of engagement its hard to get enough firepower focussed down to where it can do much good. Basically we end up at Astartes

This is using fluff marines where all the space-magic abilities of marines can be used to their full, rather than tabletop marines where casualty rates on all sides are rather higher, and there is no real morale and psychology in evidence that terror troops can take advantage of.

Provided you have a choice.

If you’re attacking a long time fixed position? Especially if it’s on a normally Imperial World, you can reasonably expect prepared kill zones, interlocking AA fire etc. And so wherever your mobility is coming from? You’re still facing some form of open ground or sky to cover before you get to the really fun part.

Yes. Marines can absolutely do it better than pretty much anyone. That’s been their role for the last 10,000 years. And on Imperial Worlds, one can certainly argue they’ve an advantage of familiarity, if not access to design schematics - especially if it’s STC designed and real relic of olden times.

For longer campaigns, that’s where the Scout Companies come in. Sabotage, destruction of stockpiles, recon, poisoning of wells, assassination and generally being a lethal nuisance to help soften it up.

I’m pretty sure that by the time an Aspirant is in the Scout Company, the only organ they lack is the Black Carapace. So in terms of endurance, feats of strength and that they’ve the same advantage as a fully fledged Marine. And so where regular smelly Hoomans might only be able to fight effectively for an hour or two? The Scouts can fight for hours on end. Or do longer forced marches and still be ready for a punch up at the end of it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You’re still taking a risk. A calculated one, yes. Certainly if they’re Storm Bolter and Powerfist equipped they’re going to give far better than they get. And it’s still not the best use Terminators.

Been years since I read Nightbringer so forgive me not recalling the overall context of it. It’s more I recall the description of flash melted Power Armour because it stuck in my mind. I think it’s the same scene where Uriel’s sword is shattered (Heavy Bolter round?), and he then massacres the occupants of a pillbox by ripping their own Heavy Bolter off its mounting and turning it on them.

All those things happen, I’m just not sure on the exact order and timing.

It's also been some years since I read it, but I can dig it out if you are curious for a quote.

IIRC the rebels had fortified a mine entrance and Ventris needed to get in. There wasn't really any room to sneak around, so he sent in the Terminators to brute force a breach, which they dutifully did.

I’ve got it upstairs somewhere. I think. I should have. Probably due a re-read!

But yeah. In that context? Terminators are just the ticket, as they’ve the highest chance of success and survival. So when you’ve limited resources, why risk anyone else?

Agreed! I just wanted to contest the idea that "anyone charging over open ground will have a bad time, even Terminators". There are too many potential factors to make such a sweeping statement!

I always thought it was highly dumb that Guardsmen officers had 3!!! wounds. A nameless generic guardsman officer has more wounds than a Space Marine captain...

Sure at the time instant death was a thing and str6 was pretty common, but it was still extremely dumb.

i've always liked the way they depict PA resilience in AOD


"The most important element in the construction of a suit of Space Marine power armour is the large ceramite armour plates, which provide the main form of protection against enemy attack. Individual plates of armour can be up to an inch thick, and have a special "honeycomb" design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium."