Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

⚫ DARK APOSTLE IN TERMINATOR ARMOUR

Points: 90

Keywords

Infantry, Character, Terminator, Dark Apostle, Heretic Astartes, Word Bearers

Characteristics

M T Sv W Ld OC
5" 5 2+ 5 5+ 1

Leader

This model can be attached to:

Terminators
Gal Vorbak Reborn
Wargear

Daemon-Bound Crozius Arcanum
Combi-bolter

Weapons

Daemon-Bound Crozius Arcanum

Range A WS S AP D
Melee 5 2+ 6 -2 2

Combi-bolter

Range A BS S AP D
24"(rapid fire 2) 2 2+ 4 0 1

Faction Ability

Dark Pacts

Abilities

Dark Faith

While this model is leading a unit:

Each time a model in that unit makes a melee attack, you may re-roll Wound rolls of 1.

Voice of Lorgar (Control Aura)

At the start of your Command phase, select one enemy unit within 6". Until the start of your next Command phase, worsen that unit's Leadership characteristic by 1 and subtract 1 from Battle-shock tests taken for that unit.

Gal Vorbak (reborn) — (0‑1 Unit)

250 points • 5 models

Unit Profile
Code
M T Sv W Ld OC
6" 6 2+ 3 6+ 1

Unit Composition
5 Gal Vorbak
Each model is equipped with:

Possessed Claws

Warp‑Fused Power Weapon

Daemon‑Fused Terminator Armour

No ranged weapons

Leader Options

The following characters can be attached to this unit:

Dark Apostle in Terminator Armour

Chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armour

Wargear

Possessed Claws (Primary Weapon)
Melee • A5 WS 3+ • S6 • AP‑2 • D2 • Anti‑Infantry 4+


Warp‑Fused Power Weapon (Extra Attacks 1)
Melee • WS 3+ • S8 • AP‑2 • D2

Abilities
Core Abilities

Deep Strike

Unit Abilities

Warp‑Born Resilience:
Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit, subtract 1 from the Damage characteristic (to a minimum of 1).

Terminator Armour:
This unit has a 4+ invulnerable save.

Faction Ability
Dark Pacts

Keywords
Faction Keywords
Chaos, Heretic Astartes, Word Bearers

Unit Keywords
Infantry, Terminator, Daemon, Possessed, Gal Vorbak

ASHEN CIRCLE

Unit Size 0-1

Points: 130

Keywords

Infantry, Jump Pack, Heretic Astartes, Ashen Circle, Word Bearers

Characteristics

M T Sv W Ld OC
12" 4 3+ 2 6+ 1
Wargear

Jump Packs
Meteor Hammers
Hand Flamers
Krak Grenades

Weapons

Meteor Hammers

Range A WS S AP D
Melee 5 3+ 5 -2 2

Hand Flamers

Range A BS S AP D
12" D6 Auto 4 0. 1

Abilities:

Pistol

Torrent

Faction Ability

Dark Pacts

ABILITIES

Ashen Descent:

Each time this unit is set up using the Deep Strike ability, it can be set up within 6" of one or more enemy units.
This unit cannot declare a charge in the same turn it is set up this way.

Iconoclasts

Each time this unit targets an enemy unit that controls an objective marker:
Improve the AP characteristic of this unit’s Hand Flamers by 1
If that enemy unit is Battle-shocked, improve the Damage characteristic of this unit’s Hand Flamers by 1

Why does the Terminator have a move of 6”?
Why does the Combi Bolter have 4 shots instead of 2 with RF2?

Why are Gal Vorbak more durable than Deathshroud Terminators? And by a huge margin to boot?

Edit: about the only weapons that might be better into Gal Vorbak than Deathshroud are Meltas, due to AP-4, and stuff that’s low strength and AP0, which just sucks at killing either of them.

Moreover, the Dark Apostle in Terminator Armour doesn't really fit the existing design language for other equivalent units.

- As stated above, Terminators have 5" move. Why is this different?
- Terminator armour also only gives +1 W over the power armoured equivalent character, in this case, it should be 5W. Why is this one different?
- The combi-bolter should be A2 Rapid Fire 2, not A4.
- With the Space Marine Chaplain and Terminator Chaplain, they use the same Crozius profile. While minor, it does feel a little unorthodox for the Terminator Dark Apostle to have a better Crozius than their power armoured equivalent. But, that's a minor point.
- Again, in the loyalist Chaplains, they both use the same rule for their Litany of Hatred, which is the same as the Dark Apostle (+1 to the Wound roll) - it would feel more infitting if the Terminator Dark Apostle had the same ability, instead of reroll Wound of 1. Is there a reason it is different?
- The Voice of Lorgar ability is a little unusual. -1 to Leadership AND Battleshock seperately, am I to take that to mean a unit would need to take Battleshock at -2? Perhaps it could changed to something more akin to the Raptors' Terrifying Assault rule (every enemy unit in Engagement range must take a Battleshock test)? The equivalent on the loyalist Terminator Chaplain is 4+ FNP against mortals, but this feels more fitting.
- The units it can join is just not congruent with what units Terminator characters can join. This model should, according to current rule philosophies, only be able to join Chaos Terminators, or other Terminator armoured units. Not even the *normal* Dark Apostle can join Possessed. Even if we ignored what Terminators can normally join, then it's weirder still that it can't then join units like Nemesis Claw or Red Corsair Raiders.
- With all that then said, the Terminator Dark Apostle shouldn't then cost 105 points. The difference between the loyalist Chaplains is 15 points, but the Terminator Dark Apostle actually loses the Dark Disciples which the normal Dark Apostle has (which appear to be "worth" 5 points more than the loyalist equivalent, despite the rest being the same) - so I'd argue the Terminator Dark Apostle, with my proposed changes to bring it in line with existing unit expectations, shouldn't be far from 75 points?

Forgot to change few things when I reduced his stats. As for M6” it’s to keep pace with gal vorbak just like MoP with possessed.
The Dark Apostle in Terminator armor would have Daemon‑bound Warp‑reactive Partially alive armor Often lighter or faster than loyalist equivalents. Simple terms Chaos blessed armor

The DA in Terminator armor is a more elite version of a DA. Weapon increase a bit and add in the +1 M" and the Voice of Lorgar also increased. Give the +1 to wound for attached unit would make the cost go up drastically and when you add in the detachment and gal vorbak would overpower the unit. This version also takes away the 2 disciples space for vehicles. NO need to copy the DA +1 Wound but to give something new and different. The Voice adds to what a DA does. PREACH Litany.

If you read lore. DA's were part of leading Possessed and Gal Vorbak. Gal Vorbak were able to tear apart terminators.

As for Gal Vorbak. It is a very powerful unit. That is why its limited to 1 only. Lorgar has recreated them but they are limited. Cannot fall back is very bad for the until as a whole.

changed the devestating wounds to re roll wound rolls of 1 for the DA with the Gal Vorbak. This brings the option of choosing the DA or the Mop close to a 50/50

Is there an in-universe reason a Dark Apostle moves extra fast when in heavier armor?
Or is it just “I want him to be stronger?”

The thread says these are meant "for the new detachment." So I'm going to assume the "new detachment" is what you posted in the other thread. That being the case, I agree with the feedback provided by others so far.

 IwinUlose wrote:

Each time a model in that unit makes a melee attack, you may re-roll Wound rolls of 1.

Some slight "double-dipping" here with your detachment. The detachment has multiple ways to buff your to-wound rolls. Not necessarily a problem, but something to keep an eye on.

Voice of Lorgar (Control Aura)

At the start of the Fight phase, select one enemy unit within 6" of this model. Until the end of the phase:

-1 Leadership
-1 to Battle-shock tests

Battleshock tests aren't normally being taken in the Fight phase. Is there a unit with a fight-phase battleshock ability that this is meant to synergize with? And has been pointed out, having -1 Ld on top of that is a bit odd.

GAL VORBAK REBORN

You mentioned something about these being a 0-1 option? I don't see that listed anywhere.

5+ Feel No Pain
Melee weapons gain (Reroll Wound rolls of 1)

You already mentioned the wound rerolls in the Terminator Apostle datasheet. No need to include that rule here as well.

Each time this unit is set up using Deep Strike, add 2 to Charge rolls this turn.

Combined with your litanies rules from the detachment, that functionally gives these guys +3 to charge coming out of reserves which means they'll be succeeding more than half the time. Pretty non-standard and likely to be feelsbad. For comparison, any unit with a rule that lets it deepstrike more than 6" away from enemies (rather than more than 9" or 8" in 11th) also has a restriction as part of that rule that states it can't charge the turn it arrives. If you arrive 9.1" away and have +3" to charge, you essentially have the same charge roll one of those "arrive 6 inches away" units would have if they were allowed to charge.

Also, I'd probably encourage you to reconsider making your terminator character faster/stronger than just because they're "more elite." While I get that it might make sense in the context of Word Bearers, there's also something to be said for stickign to conventions. Those conventions can help your homebrewed units feel like they fit in with non-homebrewed rules and also help reassure your opponent that you're just trying to put your cool idea on the table. Whereas some seemingly random bonuses that might not make sense to an opponent that isn't a huge WB fan might make opponents feel like you just made your guy more powerful because you wanted a stronger unit.

 IwinUlose wrote:
Forgot to change few things when I reduced his stats. As for M6” it’s to keep pace with gal vorbak just like MoP with possessed.

Yeah, no. The Master of Possession is "faster" because it's literally floating, and even then it's still slower than the Possessed it leads. If it's a Terminator leader, then it shoud have the same movement and defensive stats as other equivalent Terminator leaders. Move 5.

The Dark Apostle in Terminator armor would have Daemon‑bound Warp‑reactive Partially alive armor Often lighter or faster than loyalist equivalents. Simple terms Chaos blessed armor

And yet neither Chaos Lord or Sorcerors have this? No. I don't see why this should be an exception. As for "they would have this super special upltra elite armour that's better than loyalists and all other chaos lords" - no. Not only is this really backed up by lore (this is never explicitly said), it seems to be a blatant attempt for you to just get a more powerful unit.

The DA in Terminator armor is a more elite version of a DA.

And a Chaos Lord in Terminator armour or Sorceror in Terminator armour is the same. That eliteness means you get a 2+ save, 5+ invuln, an extra Wound and Toughness, at the cost of some movement. Look at what other equivalent upgrades are, instead of this power creep.

Sorry, but I can't get behind what feels like just wanting this unit to be Even More Super Special.

If you read lore. DA's were part of leading Possessed and Gal Vorbak.

If you read the rules of the game, Terminators don't lead non-Terminators in 10th/11th, unless you happen to be someone like Calgar or Abaddon. If you want a leader for the Gal Vorbak, then it should only be a Master of Possession, if the Gal Vorbak are just Possessed +1.

Gal Vorbak were able to tear apart terminators.

So can Genestealers. That doesn't mean it *automatically* happens. There's still dice to be rolled.

I already made the FNP change prior. I use to have the 0-1 for unit. I’ll re add it. I’ll recheck voice and ashes move +2. I was thinking of just copying inventors meteoric descent

As for DA terminator 6” move I understand but to benefit leading gal vorbak 5” would have too negative effect. And since MoP gets 8” and Space wolves basic terminators get 6”. It would be a simple cost plus modifier to better fit with simple lore.

Honestly I’m still not satisfied with gal vorbak reborn. At first I wanted possessed terminators as a more elite form of possessed unit, Which is also lore accurate. Then I was considering an hq elite bodyguard unit like they have in lore for dark apostles. So I decided to merge gal vorbak to be solo unit or if led by DA or MoP to get but extra plus bodyguard ability. Now I could just remove the FNP or even FNP and the +1 wound and +1 hit. For DA and MoP which would reduce the cost significantly. The issue would be DA woukd not be picked to go with GV.

Something to consider is that these units are very powerful. If you want to actually play with them, you really should tone them down-it's one thing for a neutral third party (GW) to make an OP unit. It's another thing when your own, homemade unit is (or even just feels) OP.

And again-the Gal Vorbak are more durable than Deathshroud Terminators. I missed that they were T6 and 5++, meaning the only weapon I can think of offhand that is better into Gal Vorbak than Deathsrhoud are AP0 weapons. And those don't kill either of them at anything even vaguely approaching a reasonable rate.

Actually writing this up NOT for home brew, but an attempt to give suggestions for a new GW detachment that is actually word bearer themed where pact bound failed. Take, change, add, subtract. It’s all for suggestion and to get their minds thinking

IwinUlose wrote:As for DA terminator 6” move I understand but to benefit leading gal vorbak 5” would have too negative effect.

I mean, again, as a Terminator, it probably *shouldn't* be leading a non-Terminator unit, because that's the design language of this edition. That negative effect is the consequence of taking a slow, heavy armoured leader, instead of a faster one like a Master of Possession.

And since MoP gets 8” and Space wolves basic terminators get 6”. It would be a simple cost plus modifier to better fit with simple lore.

Which more speaks of a feeling that the priority wasn't "what is the most inkeeping with existing design philosophy", but rather "how can I make the strongest character design".

Wolf Guard Terminators and their attendant named characters (Rockfist and Grimnar) are an exception to existing design language: no other Terminator unit gets 6" movement. Not even *Abaddon* gets 6". Space Wolves likely get the exception either because it's an oversight from GW, or because Wolf Wolf Wolfy McWolf. Why is this unit, a Dark Apostle (so, not even the beatstick leader of their army, or a psyker), considered to be faster than *Abaddon*?

This isn't "simple lore", it's purely so you get the most mechanical advantage.

IwinUlose wrote:Actually writing this up NOT for home brew, but an attempt to give suggestions for a new GW detachment that is actually word bearer themed where pact bound failed.

So, homebrew.

Take, change, add, subtract. It’s all for suggestion and to get their minds thinking

You know it's unlikely that GW read any of this, let alone would act on it seriously?

You won't get any feedback from them. You are getting feedback from other users here though. Your intent for it to only be seen by GW doesn't invalidate the critiques made here. In fact, if you *did* want GW to take it seriously, demonstrating a receptiveness to critique informed by knowledge of the current design paradigms would be far more helpful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and another thing: your Dark Apostle in Terminator Armour has krak grenades. What?

Krak grenades don't have a generic profile in 11th, you list no bespoke weapon profile for them, and, again, Terminators don't typically get grenades. Why is this one the exception?

Good spot on Krak. I’ll remove. However you just countered your own complaint. Space wolve terminators m6” is a mistake? Wglhat about a space marine on foot with move 8” like Mop. What makes him special or is it just do he can go with possessed? However I was thinking to make gal vorbak as a non attached unit which would make it easier.

IwinUlose wrote:However you just countered your own complaint. Space wolve terminators m6” is a mistake?

In my opinion, yes, it is. Every other Terminator in the game, with the exception of WG, Marneus Calgar, Arjac Rockfist, and Logan Grimnar are M5. Wolf Guard are the exception, likely because either GW stat inflation, or they wanted to emphasise that the Space Wolves are somehow faster. They are very much an exception to the rule of what Terminator statblocks are, and frankly, "Dark Apostle in Terminator Armour" is simply not special enough to have faster movement. It is more comparable to a Chaplain in Terminator armour, who has M5.

Wglhat about a space marine on foot with move 8” like Mop. What makes him special or is it just do he can go with possessed?

Because he's literally floating off the ground?? If it was *purely* so he could go with Possessed, then he'd have move 9", like the Possessed. Again, it is very much a unique unit - the Master of Possession has no direct analogue to other leaders, Chaos or Loyalist. Unlike this Terminator armoured Dark Apostle, which is literally just a Dark Apostle in Terminator Armour (as the name implies), and can be considered directly analogous to a Terminator Chaplain. We already know what the design philosophy for a Terminator Chaplain is, compared to its power armoured Chaplain. We also know what improvements Terminator armour gives within the Chaos arsenal, because we see it on the Chaos Lord to Terminator Lord, and Sorceror to Terminator Sorceror.

You giving this Dark Apostle in Terminator Armour an extra inch of movement is not congruent with the typical design philosophy of the faction, or of the wider game (Wolf Guard are an exception to the rule, and should not be used as justification). If you wanted a leader for the Gal Vorbak, what is wrong with a Master of Possession?

In addition, there is still the issue of the Terminator Dark Apostle being able to join a whole other bunch of power armoured units, which is also incongruent with other Terminator characters of its archetype. It should *only* be able to join Terminators, like how the Terminator Sorceror and Lord can likewise only join Terminators.

Smudge is right. It's a bad look to give your termie character extra Movement for seemingly little reason beyond wanting him to hang out with a faster unit or some hand-waivey line about how super special his version of terminator armor is.

Mildly conflicted about not letting the termie character join non-termies. Smudge is absolutely right that the language of 10th (and so far 11th) is that termie characters only get to join termie units. But on the other hand, the restrictive rules about which units characters can join in 10th were often very annoying, and part of me likes the mental image of terminators mixed into no-termie squads.

But Smudge is right. probably better to err on the side of convention here. Especially given that, if you want a dark apostle that hangs out with guys in power armor, there's already a dark apostle in power armor.

EDIT: I wonder if what you might actually want isn't the terminator armor itself but the status that you're trying to communicate with that termie armor. Maybe you wanted to design a super special "Master Apostle" instead? (Personally, I don't love when characters are just +1 versions of eachother, but it might fit your design goals better.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IwinUlose wrote:
Actually writing this up NOT for home brew, but an attempt to give suggestions for a new GW detachment that is actually word bearer themed where pact bound failed. Take, change, add, subtract. It’s all for suggestion and to get their minds thinking

Not trying to crush your dreams or yuck your yum or anything, but I do think it might be good to have some perspective on this. GW's game designers are almost certainly not coming to dakka looking for suggestions on how to do their jobs. And even if a designer did stumble upon our humble proposed rules section and like what he saw, it wouldn't really be his job to rush to the money guys and demand they start preparing the factories to crank out Word Bearer models.

So with that in mind, I think most of us are more likely to provide feedback under the assumption that rules written here are intended for use among you and your gaming group.

(If we were pretending to whisper into GW's ear here, I'd urge GW to please not use up production slots working on WB-specific CSM kits. Go show votann, harlequins, and drukhari more love.)

I can agree and disagree. In fact I’ll remove MoP from leading Gal Vorbak as they already can lead possessed. And gal Vorbak are more fanatical unit that fits with dark apostles over MoP. Also removed chosen and legionaries from Dark Apostle Terminator leaders.

In regards to home brew. Nope. I would never use homebrew because homebrew is usually far more powerful than even GW would do. My list is just to give hope that something sparks a person who might have an ear to GW. But then again maybe someone in the community might want to take something from this and make their own for homebrew.

You are willing to accept and justify GW making a MoP M8” and SWT M6” with nothing solid to back up doing so yet can’t accept the same thing like the DA version. I can appreciate suggestions and make changes and updates and errors. However I would agree I wanted to keep his move 5 and would had if I didn’t want him to be able to lead gal vorbak just like GW wanted MoP to lead possessed thus giving Mop 8” move which is 2” more compared to my 1”.

As a community you should hope and support ideas from the multiple people on here that might catch the attention of a GW worker who might find one thing someone suggested and take it back to work and throw it out there where they might say hmm let’s look into this.

GW is about creating new units and profit from doing so. And a Terminator Dark apostle figure along with a 40K Gal Vorbak reborn unit models would sell. Just like if someone made a suggestion regarding any other army.

As for the detachment, it’s pretty common that pact bound is a failure at representing WB like each of the other detachments in the Codex represents the theme of a legion. And as you can see, GW has been making newer addition detachments nightmare haunt over replacing old ones like Dread talons

 IwinUlose wrote:
I can agree and disagree. In fact I’ll remove MoP from leading Gal Vorbak as they already can lead possessed. And gal Vorbak are more fanatical unit that fits with dark apostles over MoP. Also removed chosen and legionaries from Dark Apostle Terminator leaders.

Again, this doesn't make much sense still. The MoP should be able to lead the Gal Vorbak, because Gal Vorbak are basically just enhanced Possessed. If there is *any* character which should be able to lead the Vorbak, it is the Master of Possession.

The Terminator Dark Apostle, according to the rules conventions of 11th, should not be able to lead a non-Terminator unit. The Gal Vorbak are not Terminators. The Terminator Dark Apostle should not be able to lead them. If there are any HQs which should be able to lead them, it is the Master of Possession (which is the only HQ which can lead Possessed as is), and the power armour Dark Apostle (purely just to give you a bone). Not the Terminator one.

In regards to home brew. Nope. I would never use homebrew because homebrew is usually far more powerful than even GW would do. My list is just to give hope that something sparks a person who might have an ear to GW. But then again maybe someone in the community might want to take something from this and make their own for homebrew.

I'd like to understand what you consider "homebrew" is, and why this isn't homebrew.

You are willing to accept and justify GW making a MoP M8” and SWT M6” with nothing solid to back up doing so yet can’t accept the same thing like the DA version.

Correct.
The Master of Possession can literally float, and doesn't have a comparative unit.
I dislike the fact Space Wolves are an exception to the normal rule, but can rationalise it with "Space Wolves are fast hunters".
The most solid thing backing both of them up is that GW wrote it that way.

The reasons I don't accept yours is because:
- it has no reason to be so other than you wanting to make a more powerful unit
- it doesn't match regular existing Terminator archtypes (which are all M5)
- it has no lore explanation (Dark Apostles aren't known for being notably faster in Terminator armour)
- unlike GW, you aren't an authority on the matter

However I would agree I wanted to keep his move 5 and would had if I didn’t want him to be able to lead gal vorbak just like GW wanted MoP to lead possessed thus giving Mop 8” move which is 2” more compared to my 1”.

And I disagree that this unit should even be able to lead Gal Vorbak, because they're not Terminators. You're demonstrating that you care more about getting your cool deathstar unit, rather than actually building something which fits within the design language of the game.

If you want to have a "stronger Dark Apostle" who can lead Gal Vorbak, then make a statline for a power armoured "Apostle Lord" or a "Possessed Lord". Keep it in power armour, give it stats closer to that of other Possessed (M9, T6, 3+Sv, 5+InSv, W6, Ld6+, OC1), and the Daemon keyword, and can only lead Possessed or Gal Vorbak.

This is just my interpretation on what I would like to see GW use as an example with a detachment that is WB themed.

1. Profane dice fits perfectly. Thanks for the suggestion to redo the detachment power I started with, that got me to think about the profane dice.

2. Heretic Daemon Prince undivided (thus the item) to bypass other marks.

3. Strats and other enhancements whatever. I just tried to flesh it all out to fit a theme.

3. A better Dark Apostle aka terminator which is lore. The current one is not spicy at all.

4. New unit Gal Vorbak reborn.

5. Ashen Circle.

6. Nah. Mop already gets to do a lot with a crazy +2” move for no reason other than to go with possessed. In fact lore has Gal Vorbak with DA not MoP. And gal Vorbak are the most fanatical worshippers which makes lore sense to be led by a DA over a mop. In fact we could just make Gal Vorbak possessed fanatical terminator daemons but with speed 6 to solve that issue you have.

7. I cannot accept your flawed premise for mop having m8” because he floats? He doesn’t have a disk, no statement on data to say something about being a daemon Not even the daemon keyword or a device for anything. Float at M6 then. Given 8” only to be attached to Possessed with no reason In fact MoP could technically be removed because all it is is a glorified sorcerer. Which they already have. with SWT, You could use that excuse for other chapters also.

 IwinUlose wrote:
3. A better Dark Apostle aka terminator which is lore. The current one is not spicy at all.

"which is lore" - what are you saying with this?
"Not spicy" - what does this mean? You're using very vague and subjective terminology.

Nah. Mop already gets to do a lot with a crazy +2” move for no reason other than to go with possessed.

It floats. It also has no analogue within the Chaos of Loyalist lineups.

In fact lore has Gal Vorbak with DA not MoP.

No, "lore" doesn't mention the Gal Vorbak in 40k. They are a 30k unit, which is a game system which uses a different design philosophy. There is no lore which says "in 40k 11th edition, Gal Vorbak are ONLY led by Dark Apostles in Terminator armour".

If you want this unit in 40k, then it should abide by 40k rules philosophies.

And gal Vorbak are the most fanatical worshippers which makes lore sense to be led by a DA over a mop.

And yet, the Dark Apostle in game can't even lead regular Possessed. This is because of game mechanics taking precedent over lore.

Now, I think *that's* an oversight, but the fix for that is "let the power armour Dark Apostle lead Possessed and Gal Vorbak", not "make my terminator character super fast and able to attach to non-Terminator units, despite this being generally restricted in the wider game".

People are providing you alternative solutions for what you are wanting to do. You're just not listening.

In fact we could just make Gal Vorbak possessed fanatical terminator daemons but with speed 6 to solve that issue you have.

But that's not what the Gal Vorbak are, is it? For someone mentioning lore a lot, you know that's not what the Gal Vorbak are Or the Vakrah Jal.

It honestly just sounds like you've hyperfixated on a super special unit from the lore, and want to make it the strongest possible unit, without actually considering that unit's place in both the wider army, and wider design philosophy of the edition.

I cannot accept your flawed premise for mop having m8” because he floats? He doesn’t have a disk, no statement on data to say something. Not even the daemon keyword or a device for anything. Float at M6 then.

I honestly wouldn't care if it did had M6. But, at the end of the day, those are the rules GW gave it. You're not GW. GW's rules are official. Yours aren't even homebrew, according to you.

with SWT, You could use that excuse for other chapters also.

And I also think that the Wolf Guard should only be M5. But, again, GW said it was 6, and they're the ones making the official Codex.

You, on the other hand, are using ChatGPT (given your response in a previous thread), and disregarding the critiques given, that being to better syncretise your not-homebrew units with similar equivalents.

I'll say again: you want a Terminator Dark Apostle. Do it the same way that GW differentiated between a Chaplain and a Terminator Chaplain. Want a leader for your Gal Vorbak? Let them be led by Dark Apostles, Masters of Possession, and if you absolutely *must* have a Super Special OC Do Not Steal leader for them, make a Possessed Lord which has an increased M, T and W. What you are currently trying to do is disregard the current design philosophy of this edition, just so you can have a more powerful combo in game.

 IwinUlose wrote:
In regards to home brew. Nope. I would never use homebrew because homebrew is usually far more powerful than even GW would do. My list is just to give hope that something sparks a person who might have an ear to GW. But then again maybe someone in the community might want to take something from this and make their own for homebrew.

Bad homebrew is overpowered.
Good homebrew is not. It might take a few balance passes to get there, but part of what makes good homebrew is listening to critique and implementing changes to make the brew a better fit for the game.

actually I have changed a lot of things from peoples suggestions or pointed errors. As for Gal Vorbak being 30k Yes. As for making them as Gal Vorbak reborn 40k they can easily do this by saying Lorgar during his 10k in the warp has been able to remake them. And yes, Terminators were possessed as well in 30k.
Based on your statements then, if GW just happened to take a like to a DA Terminator and give him M6 so he can go with whatever they wanted, it would wouldnt matter then.

in that case

Gal Vorbak — (0‑1 Unit)

250 points • 5 models

Unit Profile
Code
M T Sv W Ld OC
6" 6 2+ 3 6+ 1

Unit Composition
5 Gal Vorbak
Each model is equipped with:

Possessed Claws

Warp‑Fused Power Weapon

Daemon‑Fused Terminator Armour

No ranged weapons

One model may take an Icon

Leader Options

The following characters can be attached to this unit:

Dark Apostle in Terminator Armour

Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour

Chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armour

Wargear

Possessed Claws (Primary Weapon)
Melee • A5 WS 3+ • S6 • AP‑2 • D2 • Anti‑Infantry 4+


Warp‑Fused Power Weapon (Extra Attacks 1)
Melee • WS 3+ • S8 • AP‑2 • D2

Abilities
Core Abilities

Deep Strike

Unit Abilities

Warp‑Born Resilience:
Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit, subtract 1 from the Damage characteristic (to a minimum of 1).

Terminator Armour:
This unit has a 4+ invulnerable save.

Faction Ability
Dark Pacts

Keywords
Faction Keywords
Chaos, Heretic Astartes, Word Bearers

Unit Keywords
Infantry, Terminator, Daemon, Possessed, Gal Vorbak

Why are they OC 2?

And yes, GW has more authority with 40k (a GW product) than you do. That's... That really shouldn't be hard to understand.

 IwinUlose wrote:
actually I have changed a lot of things from peoples suggestions or pointed errors.

But not this error, for some reason.

As for Gal Vorbak being 30k Yes. As for making them as Gal Vorbak reborn 40k they can easily do this by saying Lorgar during his 10k in the warp has been able to remake them. And yes, Terminators were possessed as well in 30k.

Right, but you're making a lot of claims about "BUT THE LORE". Let's be honest here - this isn't about the lore: this is about what you want this unit to be, and how effective you want it to be.

The moment you start talking about "well, they could be Terminators", that's not what the Gal Vorbak are described as. Sure, it's not impossible that Terminators could be possessed. At that point, just go and make a squad of Possessed Terminators, and call them that.

Based on your statements then, if GW just happened to take a like to a DA Terminator and give him M6 so he can go with whatever they wanted, it would wouldnt matter then.

There's one word in that statement which is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
If.

If GW decided to do that, then I don't really have any say in the matter: they're the ones making the official 40k rules. But you're not GW.
If GW decided that, actually, bolters were A5 S5 AP-3, then sure, those are the official rules. But your ones aren't, and that's the difference.

which is why you shouldnt complain. its suggestions for what I think. If anyone wants to homebrew it they can make whatever changes they want or create their own version. If I make changes or not after suggestions, dont complain.

If GW sees something they like from anyone making suggestions they will do what they want and if they wanted to make the DAT have 6" move then so be it. If they think the Gal Vorbak should not have MoP then so be it.

Now I updated my Gal Vorbak. Possessed Terminators. only Dark Apostle Terminator or Terminator Lord. And they make sense for move 6" since they are possessed. Could even go higher but I can reduce DAT to Move 5"

 IwinUlose wrote:
Gal Vorbak 0-1 Unit 250 points

Leader Options

The following characters can be attached to this unit:

Dark Apostle in Terminator Armor

Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour

Why can't Sorcerors in Terminator Armour join this unit?

M T Sv W Ld OC
6" 6 2+ 3 6+ 2

OC2 is incongruous with both Possessed and Terminator statlines. Why are they somehow better at controlling objectives now?

As for their stats, they're weirdly no more durable than regular Possessed, despite wearing Terminator armour. They could be T7 W4 or W5, and be closer to Obliterators or Mutilators in terms of model and unit size. At the moment, they're actually *weaker* than regular Possessed, because you haven't given them an InSv. But, then you'd need to review their points cost again.

You also haven't said how many models are in this unit.

Wargear
Possessed Claws Primary Weapon
Melee • WS 3+ • S6 • AP‑2 • D2 • Anti‑Infantry 4+
Daemon‑mutated talons ideal for ripping through infantry and elites.

Warp‑Fused Power Weapon extra attacks (2)
Melee • WS 3+ • S7 • AP‑2 • D2
Used for armored targets and elite foes.

Weird attack profile. You haven't listed how many attacks the Possessed Claws give. The Warp-Fused Power Weapon only grants two extra attacks which are barely any different to the Possessed Claws, and you've said they're both "used for elites". Just give them more Possessed Claws attacks, and change the profile name to "Gal Vorbak Weapons". Ani-Infantry 4+ won't really apply unless you're fighting T7+ infantry, which... there isn't many of.

Warp‑Born Resilience
Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit, subtract 1 from the Damage characteristic (to a minimum of 1).

Yeah, that's fine.

Unit Composition
Each model is equipped with:

Possessed Claws

Warp‑Fused Power Weapon

Daemon‑Fused Terminator Armour

No ranged weapons

You don't need to specify their armour or that they don't have ranged weapons.

One unit may have an icon

It's a 0-1 unit, of course only one unit can have an Icon.

Abilities
Core Abilities

Deep Strike

Keywords
Faction Keywords:
Chaos, Heretic Astartes, Word Bearers

Unit Keywords:
Infantry, Terminator, Possessed, Gal Vorbak

They're also missing the Daemon keyword, which Possessed have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IwinUlose wrote:
which is why you shouldnt complain. its suggestions for what I think. If anyone wants to homebrew it they can make whatever changes they want or create their own version. If I make changes or not after suggestions, dont complain.

Sorry, but I'll *critique* your work as much as I care to. You posted this on a public forum. Are people not allowed to critique your work?

Critique is fine and i can make some of those changes that i didnt catch. But you are also wanting things that "you" want in it. And as far as that goes, if I dont make your own list. Because who knows. you might make a far better detachment for whatever you would like to see, even this one.

updated the unit 5
lowered the extra attack to +1 but increased S to 8
added the terminator save. and the T6 is good for the daemon toughness

Tbf, Smudge is mostly just pointing out the ways in which you're going against established norms. Established norms are *good* for conveying fluff. Looking at a guy in terminator armor and seeing that he joins terminator units and moves at the same speed as other terminators all helps to convey this idea that he moves a certain way and likes to be deployed among similarly-clad warriors. Going against those established mechanical norms raises questions. Why is this guy in terminator armor so much faster than other terminators? It makes the read wonder if the designer was just being sloppy or was just getting greedy with his pet units' capabiliteis.

I'll also say that from the outside looking in, all the feedback you've been given has been in good faith and is stuff that I would generally agree with.

which is why you shouldnt complain. its suggestions for what I think. If anyone wants to homebrew it they can make whatever changes they want or create their own version. If I make changes or not after suggestions, dont complain.

If GW sees something they like from anyone making suggestions they will do what they want and if they wanted to make the DAT have 6" move then so be it. If they think the Gal Vorbak should not have MoP then so be it.

Now I updated my Gal Vorbak. Possessed Terminators. only Dark Apostle Terminator or Terminator Lord. And they make sense for move 6" since they are possessed. Could even go higher but I can reduce DAT to Move 5"

I think this post makes it difficult to find much motivation in offering you feedback.

You're saying that you have no intention of using these rules yourself and are resistant to feedback being given by those who might have some interest in using a version of these rules.

You're saying that the only reason you're posting here is because you're putting a message in a bottle and tossing it into the ocean, hoping that someone with pull at GW will find it on the beach and use their influence to some day maybe possibly release something official that uses these rules. (So you're presumably also hoping that this happens within the next 3 or 4 years when 12th edition is likely to come out.)

And you don't even seem to be all that enthusiastic about the lore these units are meant to represent because you're willing to partially overhaul the concept and make them an all-terminators unit rather than taking the note that a character in terminator armor should perhaps be a bit slower.

So these are rules that:
* You may or may not have written (Chat GPT seems to have a large portion of the credit)
* That you yourself seem to have a limited passion for given that you outsourced the work to Chat GPT and are okay with overhauling the concept of the unit rather than taking a note.
* That you don't intend to use yourself nor expect anyone else to use until GW themselves stumble across them and hastily shove push for them to be developed.
* That you seem to be resistant to taking feedback about and that you aren't concrned with improving because GW will just write a better version anyway once they're inspired by your idea.

At this point, I'm not sure what the point in giving you feedback would be. I guess the rest of us could discuss what you've posted so far amongst ourselves for the fun of it, but I'm not sure anything productive can come of this beyond that.

that is where you are wrong. I have made a lot of changes from errors to sound advice.

However, after making a suggestion and then getting a response you really dont need to keep challenging it. challenging a new unit Terminator DA because of M6 with a +1" move to 6" yet absolutley fine with a MoP basically a power armor sorcerer with M8" +2" with no rule to say why except that for him the model looks like its floating.

fact is Mop has that Move to go with a possessed unit with m9 and thats the only reason". And then getting upset because a DAT can go with the unit because how dare a terminator HQ be allowed to lead a power army unit. and then getting upset when removing the MoP, seems like he is just a FAN of the MoP and wants the MoP to get attached. (which I am also, but also of the DA). Its a new unit, there can be requests for change but if not dont get upset over it. My new version for Gal Vordak is actually my first option I thought of. But I guess he doesnt like that MoP cant go with it either because now its a possessed Terminator. Added the sorcerer since I missed that. but make suggestions point out errors, but at the end whoever is creating it, has the final say.

Fairly sure Smudge uses they/them, not he/him.

 IwinUlose wrote:
but at the end whoever is creating it, has the final say.

No, the person with the final say is either GW (if it somehow becomes a real unit) or your opponent, who can refuse to play you if you're using unbalanced homebrew.

I'd also like to ask-what's the niche these units fill that other units don't? For the Apostle In Terminator Armor, I get that. It's not really a new niche, but it's a reasonable addition.
But the Gal Vorbak are just Possessed+, and Possessed are already just one of many modestly fast blenders in the CSM list.

Also, I just noticed you gave the Ashen Circle S4 Hand Flamers. Why?

DARK APOSTLE IN TERMINATOR ARMOUR

Points: 90

Keywords

Infantry, Character, Terminator, Dark Apostle, Heretic Astartes, Word Bearers

Characteristics

M T Sv W Ld OC
5" 5 2+ 5 5+ 1

Leader

This model can be attached to:

Terminators
Gal Vorbak Reborn
Wargear

Daemon-Bound Crozius Arcanum
Combi-bolter

Weapons

Daemon-Bound Crozius Arcanum

Range A WS S AP D
Melee 5 2+ 6 -2 2

Combi-bolter

Range A BS S AP D
24"(rapid fire 2) 2 2+ 4 0 1

Faction Ability

Dark Pacts

Abilities

Dark Faith

While this model is leading a unit:

Each time a model in that unit makes a melee attack, you may re-roll Wound rolls of 1.

Voice of Lorgar (Control Aura)

At the start of your Command phase, select one enemy unit within 6". Until the start of your next Command phase, worsen that unit's Leadership characteristic by 1 and subtract 1 from Battle-shock tests taken for that unit.

Gal Vorbak (reborn) — (0‑1 Unit)

250 points • 5 models

Unit Profile
Code
M T Sv W Ld OC
6" 6 2+ 3 6+ 1

Unit Composition
5 Gal Vorbak
Each model is equipped with:

Possessed Claws

Warp‑Fused Power Weapon

Daemon‑Fused Terminator Armour

No ranged weapons

Leader Options

The following characters can be attached to this unit:

Dark Apostle in Terminator Armour

Chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armour

Wargear

Possessed Claws (Primary Weapon)
Melee • A5 WS 3+ • S6 • AP‑2 • D2 • Anti‑Infantry 4+


Warp‑Fused Power Weapon (Extra Attacks 1)
Melee • WS 3+ • S8 • AP‑2 • D2

Abilities
Core Abilities

Deep Strike

Unit Abilities

Warp‑Born Resilience:
Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit, subtract 1 from the Damage characteristic (to a minimum of 1).

Terminator Armour:
This unit has a 4+ invulnerable save.

Faction Ability
Dark Pacts

Keywords
Faction Keywords
Chaos, Heretic Astartes, Word Bearers

Unit Keywords
Infantry, Terminator, Daemon, Possessed, Gal Vorbak

ASHEN CIRCLE

Unit Size 0-1

Points: 130

Keywords

Infantry, Jump Pack, Heretic Astartes, Ashen Circle, Word Bearers

Characteristics

M T Sv W Ld OC
12" 4 3+ 2 6+ 1
Wargear

Jump Packs
Meteor Hammers
Hand Flamers
Krak Grenades

Weapons

Meteor Hammers

Range A WS S AP D
Melee 5 3+ 5 -2 2

Hand Flamers

Range A BS S AP D
12" D6 Auto 4 0. 1

Abilities:

Pistol

Torrent

Faction Ability

Dark Pacts

ABILITIES

Ashen Descent:

Each time this unit is set up using the Deep Strike ability, it can be set up within 6" of one or more enemy units.
This unit cannot declare a charge in the same turn it is set up this way.

Iconoclasts

Each time this unit targets an enemy unit that controls an objective marker:
Improve the AP characteristic of this unit’s Hand Flamers by 1
If that enemy unit is Battle-shocked, improve the Damage characteristic of this unit’s Hand Flamers by 1