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This question has been getting at me for quite a while now, so could someone tell me what the Tyranid Choir is ?
Thanks

Lots of Nid psykers (Zoeys & Tyrants) with the Psychic scream power, netting a high negative to all enemy LD tests within range.

4-5 Psychic screams in the army and you can call it a choir army.

The 3 zoans and the walking tyrant generally stick together (to save you from instant death) as well as to impose those negative mods on the enemy.

Throw in outnumber or below half mods and the enemy runs for the hills!

Ah, ok, thanks

Don't forget to put synapse on one of the zoeys for escalation.

Having to roll leadership to move anything if your Tyrants don't come on by 3rd turn is really, really gay. Had this happen to me just recently and so my new zoanthrope model is now a synapse creature

How does this work against fearless armies?

Posted By jmurph on 09/20/2006 2:21 PM
How does this work against fearless armies?

Short answer, it doesn't.

Long answer?  Most fearless armies are either vehicle heavy, high per model cost, or something of the sort.
This is where the other ability of the choir comes into play.   Warp Blasting expensive targets.

What about intractable units like DAs.... I imagine its the same for stubborn, no use. But it seems that having an intractable unit would limit the effect of this.

Intractible don't save you from pinning or target priority. Stubborn might but I don't think so.

It just means that when you get into CC and they don't retreat they must take those outnumber saves....

Otherthan that fearless armies get to override the choirs effects (part of why they pay for being fearless)

Still Fearless and things like chaos with mocu are very different, while in normal games ld9 with a reroll is pretty much what you need to be "fearless" once you roll on the mods and the enemy is testing on ld5 with a reroll they are hardly as tough....

Anything under ld7 and the enemy is in trouble.

Wait what is the effect of a psychic scream power?

-1 to ld tests to all enemy units within range.... (max is screams 5 in the nid army)

Cumulative effect is a part of the scream? In other words you get to add together each modifier?

My guess is that while it might reduce leadership, you can't make intractible troops run away from shooting.  Granted pinning would become much easier, however, stubborn troops, absent pinning pass all moral checks

So DA's have limited prowess against the choir

If by prowess you mean sitting there pinned as they advance and the stealers, raveners and flying tyrants run up and chew you to bits in close combat/short firefights.

Ya thats what I meant by prowess. But then again, reading through my post, no thats not what I meant. What I meant is that at least when succumbing to shooting powers ASIDE from pinned (pay attention in this part Happy Anarchist, this part applies to you) shooting results wouldn't affect the DA's. Sure, pinning would perfectly apply, I clearly grant that part of the argument. But if all Psychic scream does is lower my LD score, then there are a wide variety of things, ASIDE from pinning that the DA's would be resilient to.

For example, suffering 25% from shooting, wouldn't mean much because intractable allows for failure without falling back.
Stubborn units pass their morale checks automatically, except for pinning so the same applies to them.

Yep this is true...
Not a huge deal, the choir is just part of the army, the 3 zoans and 2 tyrants are still very usefull even if the choir does not work...

You can still out shoot the enemy or take the objectives for the win.

And outshooting basic marines is really not that hard. It's the ones with craploads of terminators/obliterators that get tough.

What is range on Choir?, Seems to me like target priority would help out a lot, take out 2-3 choirs on first turn, or just deal with synapse next to zoanthrope (They are not synapse correct?)  Most likely a tyrant, which can't handle 8 missiles, need target priority, and on first turn, I'll have something get through. 

Why is that? Lots of heavy weapons shots no matter what you do? Because, I have 8 missile launchers, 6 lascannons, 4 HB's and 2 10 man assault squads in my army. The assault squads are stubborn, two plasma guns, and two powerfists in each. 

Spoken truly like someone who hasn't played Zilla Nids.

First off, none of what you listed has LOS to the flyrant.
That leaves the Walking Tyrant with 2-3 Guard.

If you pass all target priority, and there are no cover saves involved (and here is the biggy) your entire army has range and LOS to that unit, you might be able to kill it, if they only have 2 Guard.
Rounded for simplicity
8 Missiles - 5.3 hit. 4.3 wounds
6 LC - 4 hit, 3.3 wounds
4 HBs - 8 hits, maybe 2.7 wounds, 0.9 failed saves.
4 Rapid Firing Plasma Guns, 5.3 hits, 3.5 wounds.
So, totalled up, your entire army's shooting inflicts 12 wounds.
Congratulations, you offed the walking tyrant. (if you don't fail any critical target priority, get the first turn and have LOS to everything)

Now the two Gunfexes likely pin two units, and inflict a handful of casualties.
The three Dakkafexes unload on your assault squads, they are intractable and stay put to be charged by the stealers and raveners hanging about.
The Flying fex, if CC, eats your line, and if shooty, opens fire and then charges.
Oh yeah, and the Zoas also get to unload warp blasts where they will.

And an open field is the absolute best situation you would have. If there is decent cover, they will take 1/3 of your wounds off, meaning you didn't even kill the walking tyrant. That's assuming your whole army still sees them.

Hey, this is a friendly discussion and I am trying to FIGURE OUT my tactics to a choir army. You can ease up on the tone Mr Unhappy Anarchist

I think the point I was trying to make, of course you are free to elaborate on this one, was that my army should at least be able to stand toe to toe with these nids. This isn't starship troopers, my guys aren't just gonna sit down and cry themselves to sleep because there are lots of "Random stupid catch phrase name Nids" on the table. (Flyrant....dakkafex, Who comes up with this crap? Its the same as a 1337 H4x0r!!! and other such spectacularly stupid nomenclatures designed to intimidate new players. who cares.)

Sure I might get pinned, but the POINT i was making was that he can't pin all my heavy weapons down, and you can ONLY have 5 screams so that means that he has to spread the screams due to a high amount of heavy weapons displacement. Of course, if all I shot was my heavy weapons, I might as well retire from the field for purely bad commanding. However, I would also logically pump lots of bolter shots (which in case you didn't know, DO actually wound most nids) flamer shots (which is nice for what seems to be a massive horde of nasty nids, at least genestealers) Of course your scenario assumes I make a series of tactical blunders beyond all belief....which I don't intend on happening should I encounter this kind of army.

Now sure, there is a great chance a zilla nids army like this is going to just be nasty beyond all belief. But I refuse to believe that marine players are just pooched when they fight these kinds of armies. The same goes for what you have laid out to me, to your zilla nids. not all will hit, not all will work, I'll be in cover too and when all is said and done, the match up will be based on strategy rather than "OMGZORZZ ZILLA NIDS PWNZ J00!" So Happy Anarchist, you can knock it off with the air of "I'm better than you bow to my superior knowledge" machismo and realize that its just a game, everyone has a chance to win, there is no such thing as the "Ultimate army".

Some of the really nice things about the zilla nids are the fact that they cause most (if not all) of their wounds by forcing saves, this means that while cover helps zilla nids it rarely helps the enemy as our wounds are coming from our twin linked/living ammo devourer shots.

The choir is especially nice in mission where the enemy has to come to you... Say take and hold where you go and sit on the objective... or behind cover near the objective ready to move/shoot/assualt anyone that is foolish enough to come close, easy to get the choir in range of what you need in this case also.

That said most armies won't actually want to come towards you regardless of the objective. (but hei its their loss)

Things that could really hurt zilla nids imo are whirlwinds! our fexs have 2 attacks in CC so are hardly a threat to most things, (I mean sure they instakill T4 characters and destroy dreads easily enough...but it takes just as much effort to instakill an IGsman

The whirlwinds are devastating to ravaners and genestealers sitting behind the TMC wall...

While speeders do the same task their risk themselves while going after the tyranids while the whirlwind can sit back in safety.

Without the stealers/ravaners to prevent CC all we zilla nid players are left with as CC insurence are the 2 tyrants and alot of people run them with 2 guns each meaning all they have is 3 attacks in CC, not that much better than the fexs.....

Course personally I still run a slashy 6 attack on the charge with rerolls to wound CC tyrant...

Las/plas squads are still a pain in missions where they can afford to sit still most of the game but only if our CC elements are taken out.... Personally I run 3*1 ravaner squads and if I send a single ravaner after a tac squad and it does not destroy them I am very dissapointed in its performance

Domo Arigato mr. roboto.

See that is exactly what I was looking forwith regards to tactics. I figured that using the missle launchers for frag abilities would be awesome against the cc troops, as well, the assaulters for counter charge, rather than running into the middle of the field. HB's for the CC's in the beginning and then the lascannons to focus fire on the first two turns to mess some things up. Unfortunately my familiarity with the nids is very low so I'll need to sit and read their codex.

Wow. Someone has some sand up their but.

FYI, Flyrant, Dakkafex and the like are shorthand that allows us to reference specific models without having to write elite Carnifex with two twinlinked devourers and enhanced senses every time. Very unlike l337 speak, as l337 speak replaces things that are perfectly useable. You will find a wide variety of people on the board that use common abbreviations (the above, MEQ, zilla nids, choir, SAFH, to name a few) so that they don't have to describe a paragraph for everything they want to say.

As for saying that you would use stupid tactics, I was setting it up to give the marine player the best possible advantage.
Bolters are incidental. 10 Bolters rapidfiring will cause
13.4 hits, 2.2 wounds with .7 failed saves. That is a whole squad in rapid firing distance not even causing a wound on average.

Something I realized that I didn't mention is the way zilla nids plays. Against shooty lists, especially all direct fire shooty lists like yours, the light CC bugs sit behind the big bugs wall of defense, usually with the tyrant + guard taking point.
They advance closely together, sticking to cover and trying to avoid obvious fire lanes.
If you don't drop a bug in one turn, they will, if possibly, move a fresh bug up and block LOS so that you can't take the other bugs wounds off and it can still contribute firepower.

The Screams will absolutely not be spread out, the entire point is to get them as close together as possible so that they can all be applied to one unit.

As for running your Assault squads up the board, I was mainly doing that to add their PGs rapid fire to the total to give you the most possible advantage in killpower.


Is it impossible for a marine SAFH to beat nids? Not even in the slightest. You may want to look up some SAFH marine lists that have more firepower than yours to start though.
It will be a difficult matchup in any case, but several six man las/plas squads would add a good deal of firepower. Some whirlwinds could cause some serious pain, either Castellan or stock standard. Same with speeders, though with more difficulty. If you can clear out the close combat types, and your Assault Marines have Power Fists (like they should) then you could engage the monsters in close combat, where they are more vulnerable to a good Pfisting.

I don't mean to be condescending or anything, and there is a wide variety of people that have more experience and knowledge of the game on this site alone.
I believe Vsurma was one of the original adopters of the zilla nids.

Also, just so you get an idea of the nid firepower,
Dakkafex are under the 115 point limit that lets them be Elites choices.
They get 8 reroll to hit reroll to wound BS3 S6 shots.
Even against MEQs they will general cause 2-3 casualties in one volley of fire, and against small squads will cause torrent of fire checks.
Gunfex are Heavy choices that vary in points depending on defensive upgrades, but generally have 2 S10 Venom Cannon shots (which can only glance, but almost assuredly will) and one S8 Ordnance blast per turn (which can pen).
None of these weapons have much in the way of AP by the way, so don't worry about getting your own cover saves so much as being in cover if you get charged by Stealers or Raveners. (otherwise they will strike first instead of simo)

Sall good Happy Anarchist, i just wanted to have some fun with ya.

You can look at my army list and tell me if it will do well against Zilla Nids. Its in the army list section under 2k points DA list. I don't use vehicles, which is assuredly a little scary considering that I have to do well with leadership to win.

I figured on conserving bolter shots for the smaller nids, from what I have seen not many use the armor upgrades on their gaunts, while the GS happen to have 4+ armor if the player feels nice towards their GS, thats where the HB's come in to take out the GS.

Zoanthropes are not synapse, neither are fexes, while fexes can't be insta killedanyways becuase of their toughness, zoanthropes aren't the same (right?). Look at my army list and tell me what might be a smart tactic. My list is extremely shooty, 79 man Dark Angels.

Will take a look at your list.

Generally speaking, unless you have some mobile firepower, you won't be able to shoot the stealers. They don't infiltrate or run ahead or anything. They sit behind the big guys who block LOS.

As for the Zoas, it is becoming common for one to be taken with Synapse, but even if not the walking tyrant and flyrant both have it, so you shouldn't have too much trouble. (Walking Tyrant with 3 guards has 13 wounds. Most people ignore it to take out the models that are currently damaging. You can take out 3 fexes with the same firepower.)

I'll take a look at your list though

Sit and shoot marines won't work on any table with cover. Move and shoot (terminator) marines and drop pod marines can do well.

I believe the godzilla Nids are pretty good, although a properly shooty army should beat them unless played stupid. The Tyranid army needs to close in, psychic scream and warp blast are short ranged, and the Marines can deploy almost 40" away if they want to. Essentially, the Tyranids can never catch the Marines, and if the Marines have enough guns then the Nids will lose the shoot out. This means that the Marines, depending on mission, should always be able to force atleast a draw. Some missions favour the Nids by having a lot of objective markers around the centre of the table, but all escalation missions favour the shooty Marines.

Just avoid point sinks and it should go well. Don't take any tanks unless they are daemonically possessed, take as many Obliterators or Terminators as you can, have a unit or two ready to counter charge anything that makes it too close, and keep the distance even if it includes moving move or fire troops. People seem to forget the cardinal rule that if something is slow and hard to kill you should try to get as many turns of shooting at them as possible. I think Chaos is the biggest problem for zilla Tyranids because both the IW lists and the mixed Daemon lists have the potential to completely massacre the bugs.

I always make sure that the cover is very fair for both sides, ensure that only 25% of the table at max is cover. Aside from that I have a load of heavy weapons that should do well, my problem is figuring out what to shoot at first.

Two assault squads, they are way overcharged (flamer, and two plasma pistols, vet sergeant with a powerfist) nearly 600 pointsfor both, but I think its well worth it for when the genestealers get a little too close and the gaunts. (they are stubborn, so absent being pinned they won't fall back).

I have NO tanks, which I feel really just bog me down, and are far to easy to kill as opposed to a 6man lascannon squad. My army list is in the army list section, tell me what you think about it for a zilla nid army.

I would not worry about not having vehicles...alot of zilla lists have alot of antitank, although my list might be somewhat extreme in this case, atleast personally I WANT to see the enemy bring some armour to the table...

What with 7 S10 shots a turn, 5 S8 shots, and a whole heck of a lot of S6 shots from the fexs, armour is generally not my main problem...

Anything with NO armour on the table is annoying as it leaves the HS fexs rather innefective...
150pts for 2 S10 shots with low ap so not easy to instakill anything as you ahve to pass their armour save and the S8 large blasts that only hit half the time...

That said torrent of fire is a big deal with zilla nids and even the HS fexs manage to pull it off on occasion when the large blasts hit....even more so once you get close as then your 5pts spinebanks add on average more than 1 wound into the mix... (course your not always close enough to use them)

Zoans like to chill near the walking guarded tyrant so are safe from instakill most of the time.



That is untill they run into my Red Terrors / I mean ravaners muhahaah.... 2 ravs took out 2 termy squads and a librarian (3rd rav helped with the lib)................ (ok so maybe this happened in just 1 game but it was a game to be remembered)



Escalation take and hold certainly doesnt....
Nor any other mission that requires you to get closer to the tyranids...

On missions with objectives worth alot of points its easy enough for the tyranid player to sit behind some terrain untill its right to go out and take the objectives... shoot and assualt the enemy off said objectives if they dare try to take them...

On an open field the zilla army does not survive, it REQUIRES terrain for those cover saves. That said once you find some decent cover your set, hiding 7 MCs in 2 terrain pieces is not all that hard.



Funny, doesnt the book say 25% minimum is requires?

Oh I thought max was 25%, Hahahaha oh well seems i'm wrong again.