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Has anyone been following the threads about the future of Rackham's games?

Posts from Jean Bey detailing the truly grim future:

en-forum.confrontation.fr/viewtopic.php

And the reaction (some would say over-reaction!) thread:

en-forum.confrontation.fr/viewtopic.php

Personally, I am not optimistic.

Seems as if Rackham's about to transition into a... toy company?

Of course, I am biased, as I actually liked Confrontation 3.0 (and, to some extent 3.5 minus the Bullseye and LOS issues!)...

We'll see, I guess...

Well, I didn't expect them to follow an unprofitable business plan forever.

Hopefully they'll make the transition into something else and be able to offer a product which has a market.

Along with Mongoose moving to cheap pre-painted plastics (EDIT: and Reaper too!), it looks like the minor players are bailing to let PP and GW duke it out in the traditional minis market.

I read the article and it does make sence Wiz kids and wizards have made a killing on prepaints and although not a single set of Mongoose BE has moved off shelves at LGS, AT43 has ant it looks great repainted. If they continue this route I will eventually buy into prepaint once the quality is worked out

this said I dont buy into the whole going to plastic is cheaper as metal has resin 75% plastic made from oil....hmmm?

I go to event and see all the unpainted minis that people have had for years so pre painted would help with that..
I am surprises GW has not done color sprues like gundom models, retolling the sprue would cost money but if people could build and play it in GW events might get more people to come back to thier first love.... (unless they keep jacking with the rules)

If I had the money to do prepainted for a new game I would be talking to the people that make action figures almost all the toys you see at the store look great.

Official translations available at TGN

First set are here:
http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/?p=6731

And the latest set are here:
http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/?p=6743

Mmmm, I wouldn't call that an over-reaction. As one person mentioned, they [Rackham] are beginning to have a GW way of thinking. I.E. simplifying rules with every new edition, dumping armies (or "evolving" armies?), releasing separate army books.

This does not bode well. I got into Confrontation because it was interesting, I didn't have to spend a ton of money an an entire "army", and didn't have to worry about codex creep....now it seems Rackham's headed in the same direction....


And what's with the prepainted minis craze? Every PPM I've seen looks very sloppy, unless someone cleans/strips/repaints/highlights/shades it, so what's the point? My favorite part of wargaming is the modeling and painting aspect.

Posted By ancientsociety on 03/29/2007 8:16 PM
And what's with the prepainted minis craze? Every PPM I've seen looks very sloppy, unless someone cleans/strips/repaints/highlights/shades it, so what's the point? My favorite part of wargaming is the modeling and painting aspect.

It may be your favourite bit, but a lot of people either don't like it, are crap at it, or don't have the time for it. I see far more unpainted/undercoated armie than I do painted armies. A fair whack of the painted armies I see look worse than the undercoated ones. Everyone likes to play with a painted army, so there is probably a reasonable market for it - judging by how few decent painted armies I see it is probably a bigger potential market than the conventional one.

I fall into the don't like painting armies and don't have much time for it categories.  I won't play with an unpainted army, that means I don't play anywhere near as much as I would like to. I got back into the hobby to play games, not sit at a desk painting yet another batch of troops. I do enjoy painting individual models, and am starting to get into converting (not very good at it yet), but I just end up staring at full units of undercoated models. I really want to hit the tables with my iyanden list, but my lack of painting patience is stopping me, though I can almost see the light at the end of the tunnel on the first wraithguard troop.

The quality may not be great in PPM yet, but the technology will presumably improve if it does start to make money. The rackham at43 stuff doesn't look that bad - good enough to look ok on the table as is (certainly compared to the unpainted hordes), and good enough to form the base for touching up.

Since we are at the beginning of everything there is much room for improvement. And the improvement from the first batch to the second has already been a nice one. So.... we will see better and better of the course of tim.

What I find really interesting, how often folks complain about a system without having read the rules. And yes, ancientsociety, I am speaking about you, too. If you had ever put some time in reading the AT rules you wouldn´t have posted such a comment. Complicated does not mean complex rules. And yes, AT rules are not very complicated, but if you delve into them you will find out that they allow for a very complex game. And since Confro has become unnecessaryly complicated over time it is quite a good thing that Rackham cleans them out.

Personally I am optimistic. I got into Confrontation because of the beautiful sculpts but have never really got much use out of the small Wolfen force I developed because the rules are such a cruddy, unintelligible mess.

A complete revision of the rules would be well worth it to me. Particularly if they can get it translated by a native English speaker who understands wargames, instead of the illiterate gibbon on acid who seems to have done it first time around!

The idea of supplementing their range with (slightly) cheaper plastics holds not fear for me IF they maintain the quality of sculpting that has gone into AT-43. I prefer metal models out of long habit, but I can compromise on plastic, if they are cheaper and if the sculpting is top notch and not mangled by the casting process.

And AT-43 is a good game for me. I have played with friends Initiation sets quite a bit, but have only held off getting into it because I am waiting to splurge BIG TIME on a Red Blok army when it is released. The rules are much better written in Op Damocles, than in Confrontation, so hopefully they have learned something there.

I hope it comes off for them.

Posted By Asmodai on 03/29/2007 4:47 PM
Well, I didn't expect them to follow an unprofitable business plan forever.

Was it really an "unprofitable" plan or just not profitable enough for them, and/or their new stock holders?

The biggest gamble that I see is that they really are risking alienating their existing user base and hoping that a whole new crowd buys into their new rule set and pre-painted (for the most part) miniatures.

I hope it all works out!

"The quality may not be great in PPM yet, but the technology will presumably improve if it does start to make money. The rackham at43 stuff doesn't look that bad - good enough to look ok on the table as is (certainly compared to the unpainted hordes), and good enough to form the base for touching up."


Technology?

You mean they'll invent a harsher whip with which to beat their Chinese slave labour? I can hardly wait!

That signals the beginning of the end for Confrontation and myself. As I have stated numerous times I hate prepaints. It's a complete hobby to myself and friends, not a boardgame. Boardgame night is on Thursday and is all the clix and AH stuff. We play the rest of the week.

Rakham has just lost another customer.What's left to be seen is if they can make it up in other customers. I wonder if this is the first step of breaking into mass retailers like Wal-mart.

I have painted some of my Conf minis ( as well as some Conf minis for my GFs RPGing) and I always find them a PITA to paint. Small detail that is crisp enough to show if you don't paint them properly and they are almost always a pain to pin. A friend of mine paints professionally and his base rate is basically doubled for Rackham figs due to the complexity of the minis

I'd welcome painted plastics as

1) I've got more than enough stuff to paint but I always like a new game
2) I prefer to play games and not paint

I'm not a bad painter but the amount I need to paint for a game has to be commensurate with the amount I play the game and for Rackham figs I would need to play Conf exclusively before that happened due to the amount of time the models take to prepare and paint.

I welcome painted Dirz models.

I am not the greatest painter in the world, but the Confrontation stuff has never been that hard to do. The problem is in tranport, which the plastics won't have. You can just throw them in a tub.

I like everything I have to be personal and unique to me. I don't buy painted or assembled stuff. Not everything I have is painted or done, but it is still mine. It is that sense of pride in making it your own. I don't get that with board games, or card games. It's why I like the hobby so much and have been doing it for 20 odd years. I take "ownership" of the figs and models. I don't do that with boardgames and tire of them easily.

Its the same to me as buying a prepainted almost assembled model car or plane. What exactly is the point then? I just don't have as much invested personally so care that much less.

I wonder why people that care about fielding a painted army like the thought of a prepaint. In the end it is about the same. It's just a figure out there. You didn't do it, you didn't paint it, so why is it any better? Just as well field unpainted or primer.

Posted By Toreador on 03/30/2007 7:54 AM
I am not the greatest painter in the world, but the Confrontation stuff has never been that hard to do. The problem is in tranport, which the plastics won't have. You can just throw them in a tub.

I like everything I have to be personal and unique to me. I don't buy painted or assembled stuff. Not everything I have is painted or done, but it is still mine. It is that sense of pride in making it your own. I don't get that with board games, or card games. It's why I like the hobby so much and have been doing it for 20 odd years. I take "ownership" of the figs and models. I don't do that with boardgames and tire of them easily.

Its the same to me as buying a prepainted almost assembled model car or plane. What exactly is the point then? I just don't have as much invested personally so care that much less.

I wonder why people that care about fielding a painted army like the thought of a prepaint. In the end it is about the same. It's just a figure out there. You didn't do it, you didn't paint it, so why is it any better? Just as well field unpainted or primer.

Is this a serious question?

It is better because it is painted. Duh.

I don't care if I painted it or not, just as long as it is painted. I like the hobby side of games, but I like the gaming side more. The whole appeal to table top war gaming is the visual appeal you get during the game. Unpainted mini's take away from that.

I am so confused about your post. Explain to me how prepainted and unpainted mini's are the same? When they are so obviously completely different.

See, that is what makes it hard for me to be objective about it. When I put something together or paint it, I take ownership of it. Some of my personality and time is in it. I would much rather field unpainted miniatures on the board than prepaints, because to me it's the same as putting out carboard chits or cards. I don't have anything invested in it, so don't care really what it looks like. That is the part I can't grasp, but it is also coming from an entirely different perspective, so it is hard for me to wrap my mind around it.

To me even prepaints are worse than even basic, assembled models. If I look across the board and see a younger kid with poorly assembled, and painted models, I still feel better about it than if he were fielding a prepainted force, because at least he tried. He took the time to do it, not some Chinese guy being paid .25 and hour.

So I don't get the connect that someone would care about fielding unpainted figs but like to field prepaints. At that point to me you just as well field unpainted green army men. It's the same to me.

Pretty much in this case ,you can't teach an old dog new tricks. It's all opinion anyway.

Posted By pixelgeek on 03/30/2007 7:47 AM

I welcome painted Dirz models.

You, me and the whole free world brother!

Just kidding, of course.

But, it may take a little time and a lot of luck (And really, good luck catching GW with this plan!), but Dirz may soon be the new "Space Marines"...

Well, you still can invest a lot of time in customizing your prepainted minis.... and its not that difficult. I did it myself.

There is the whole thing of paying for something you don't want and won't use...

And why pay extra for something prepainted and preassembled to only break it back apart and do it all over. They aren't even built in a way that encourages this.

I am glad Rakham will still make some metal figs for Confrontation. At least I will still be able to purchase a little, but no prepaints. It will be interesting to see what the new rules are like, and if we can still play with what had for Confrontation.

New rules is all Rackham has to do to sell me on their miniatures.

Marines Workshop killed me on painting rank and file troops. That was the lovely part of Warmachine in the humble beginnings. I could paint a 'caster and his small cadre of mechanical beatsticks, have a small, well painted force, and get some games in. Now I feel like I'm painting as many Temple Flame Guard as I was Valhalans back in the day (though I know its not even close to the same number.)

Rackham has -incredible- character models. If I could buy a handful of great metal character models, bust out some mad conversions and respectable paint jobs on them and -then- buy a box of prepainted rank and file grunts to go with them... Hell, that'd be fantastic. Add on great rules and I'm in like Errol Flynn.

Posted By Toreador on 03/30/2007 9:09 AM
And why pay extra for something prepainted and preassembled to only break it back apart and do it all over. They aren't even built in a way that encourages this.

I am glad Rakham will still make some metal figs for Confrontation. At least I will still be able to purchase a little, but no prepaints. It will be interesting to see what the new rules are like, and if we can still play with what had for Confrontation.

You're usually not paying extra though. D&D and Star Wars minis are considerably cheaper.

I agree with you. I know lots of gamers that view their armies no differently than chits or playing pieces. These players leap at pre-painted forces since they save them the hassle of painting the army themselves or the expense of hiring someone to paint it for them.

I do a lot more painting than playing, so I prefer the hobby aspect. There's room for both. There may not be a big enough market to support both types of players in every game though.

It probably isn't a big deal to many of you, but saying things like, "just repaint them" and such really misses the point.

For me, making the figure and painting it is the major part of the hobby. In this case the game itself is there to service the hobby. Let's face it 40k as a game leaves much to be desired, so it's gotta be the hobby that people love. Making a model from scratch, cleaning & assembling then painting it is something for me to accomplish that satisfies my own desires and is its own reward. I could do this with Gundam figures, too, I guess but the social network aspect of the hobby is missing there.

Other companies that make pre-painted figures seem to do so to service the game. The problem is that there is usually little reason to customize and convert figures because the parent company does all that for you. The figures, as Asmodai mentioned, are often little more than sophisticated versions of the game pieces used in board games like what Milton Bradley churns out. Also, to cut costs, the plastic is usually softer than what I like or am used to from GW. While the game may be fun (and if you enjoy it then by all means buy it) there is no hobby aspect to it and that generally leaves me uninterested and disengaged.

I love painting, and love to look down upon a table loaded with figures painted by my friends and I. Some in our group are great painters, some not so good but we always encourage each other to do more. Thats why I like unpainted figures.

However, I also enjoy prepaints for a completly different reason. Starwars, Heroclix, horrorclix, those are games. I lump them in the same place I lump boardgames. Not bad, but thier own thing. Star wars is a fun easy game to play when you want something fast and easy. If i i had to paint the figs, i wouldn't play it.

There are games I will always want to paint. But there are games I would like to play without the time investment. This is where the pre-paints come in.

As long as prepainted games become part of the hobby, I'm O.K. with them. When they replace unpainted figures is when the hobby dies, and I don't want to see that.

Yes toreador, we understand that you hate prepainted minis, you have explained such ad nausaeum and the opposing side has done the same as well.
Wether you see the positives in such is up to you. But that is obviously not going to happen, as I said before, the opposing side has tried to explain the positives.

I like to both paint and game myself. I like prepainted games for what they are just as much as I like games such as GW for what they are.

To me, prepainted is something I can play right off the bat, have some fun and be done with it. When I am sitting at home not playing and have some down time mixed in with the myriad other tasks life throws upon me, I love to convert and paint models.

There are two stratas of gamers. The ones who simply like to play, and the ones who love to immerse themselves in all aspects of the hobby.

I am glad to see that mageknight has set a precedent with prepainted. It showed the world that such could be a successful endeavor for those who want to play tabletop simulations without having to invest undue amounts of time before you can set a single model on the table.

This becomes obvious when nearly every major game manufacturer has atleast dabbled into prepainteds, even GW (sabretooth) did for the LOTR license.

When its all said and done, if you dont like prepainted minis, then dont play the game. But your judging a game based on the minis, and not the game.

Hellfury, I do understand the point. It is just hard for me to see it. I think there has been some interesting discussion and some good points of view.

From the look of it it is a different way of looking at games. Boardgames to me are ok, but I don't really invest much time or money in them. They are one off things that I play ever so often. Entertaining, but not all engrossing. Miniature games are the all engrossing hobby. I like games, but I love miniature games that are the whole hobby.

So in a way there are two different schools of thought here. In a lot of ways a bunch of us buy miniatures for the hobby aspect. The game helps in this, but it doesn't matter as much as the cool figs we get to put together and paint. The other school of thought is it is all about the game, so the pieces used in the game don't really matter as much. If the game is cool, and the figures ok, then they are happy.

So really we have two different groups of people that will not approach the game the same way. Almost no one in our group plays any clix games. We are the hobby gamers that sit around chatting on paint nights and gaming with those figs on the game nights. That is the engrossing part of our hobby. A few people dabble in the clix and AH stuff, but it is more one off style games. Not much is bought, not much is played. Those are something of a diversion for a time. Nothing invested so nothing lost.

It will be interesting to see what the future holds and where gaming goes. A lot of model kits are slowly fading a way in place of prepainted stuff. Maybe miniature gaming will go the same route, and maybe that is why some of us will raise our banner high and carry on our little fight.

One other point your missing.

In many areas, clix type games are seen as a gateway into other wargames such as GW, etc.

It may not be so in your little neck of the woods, but I have seen many shops pick up young customers who wouldnt otherwise step into a game shop and fall in love with Hobby games such as GW.

Just because prepainted exists, does not mean hobby games will become extinct. Tabletop wargames have been around Since H.G.Wells made the first one, and will continue to be around despite passing fads.

if you want to point blame for such things, it would be better directed towards video games and not the tabletop gaming industry that does not sell kits.

Where you see kits becoming less seen and clix games becoming more predominant, it doesnt matter. Atleast there is a game shop to play in.

Compare that to the "game shops" that are popping up like crazy lately, shops such as "EB Games" and "Gamestop". They sell nothing but video games. Where once a game shop meant actual games, they are quickly being replaced by specialty video game only shops.

That, Toreador, is where the true danger to tabletop gaming lies.

There are a couple of shops that carry clix type stuff and cards only around here, and they don't have the space to play anything but a small clix game or card game.

Not much of a gateway here. Not a whole lot of crossover. It is almost like High School cliques.

The problem is when the gateway becomes the bulk of it?

Confrontation has some amazing figs, and now they go plastic. That is a real loss to my part of the hobby. Not many play Confrontation around here because of the rules, I doubt that will seriously change as other than in my own house I haven't seen anyone else play AT-43 around here. So basically there will be little to no market in our area for the game, and Confrontation in any form will be gone.

Maybe that will change, we will see.

Oh, and places like EBGames and Gamestop are in real danger of losing a big chunk of market, as the big three are looking at selling games as digital downloads. If that happens, they are gone.

I don't see that working well in the next couple of years though.

I don't know, I thoguht folks would have seen this as the best of both worlds. Rackham has said that their special units and characters will still be metal. So for those who love to paint Rackhams' unquestionably briliant character models, there ya go, paint away. For those who like the idea of prefabed rank and file, yup, got that too. C4 will alleggedly still allow for smaller skirmish games, but will be scalable to full on RagNaRok size lists. Again, a win win.
I really like PP, but they are moving towards encouraging larger and larger games. Look at the recent tournament formats where folks playing 1000 point games had a real incentive to do so. Warhammer has a mishmash of rules for playing smaller scale games with no real continuity there at all between warband, Mordenheim, and the skirmish rules in the rules book. Rackham is saying straight out they want one game for all gamers. If it works, I say go for it. And they will still have Cadwallon (a whole other story) for those who want even smaller, more detailed adventure.
I'm gonna give aa wait and see.

 

AS an aside, check out the opening of Rackham's Forgeworld equivalent Fire Industries  http://www.rackham.fr/html/catalog.php?lg=EN

Posted By Kendo on 03/30/2007 12:17 PM

 C4 will alleggedly still allow for smaller skirmish games, but will be scalable to full on RagNaRok size lists. Again, a win win.

AS an aside, check out the opening of Rackham's Forgeworld equivalent Fire Industries  http://www.rackham.fr/html/catalog.php?lg=EN

This is something that I still have trouble wrapping my head around...

And I fully admit that, with my somewhat limited wargaming experience, maybe it is just me.

But I just cannot see how the one game system (Confrag'Narok!) will be scalable to a degree to that small scale skirmishes (Confrontation) will even be anything remotely like what we've got now with C3.0.

With all the talk of "streamlining" and "simplfying" (but not simple!) the rules using units and groups, I just can't see how it is going to work.

A 400 point game of WFB as Confrontation?

Ah well, maybe it really is just me, because I actually really like the Confrontation 3.0 ruleset...

Oh for heavens sake..... go read the AT-43 rules and then use the thing between your ears how this system can be scaled and fitted towards Confrontation..... it is possible. One thing I really heat is people being only half in the know to judge systems......

And simplyfiyng means: condensing the complicated (vs. complex) structure into somthing easier to understand but still complex. So it will be in the end easy to learn but a lot of work to master.

You can´t see? Then open your eyes and read! Sorry for being a little bit agressive.... but the recent days I have seen so many folks ranting without even having read the text Bey wrote, just quoting rumors that had no substance......


@Hobbyists
Nice being a hobbyist, but in the end they are not going to pay the bills of the company.... there are too few of them. So.... the company has to invite in also the not so elitist gamers too.