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I cannot figure out why you would seriously, from a simple cost/efficient point of view, use any other cc unit the eldar got, so namely Scorpions and Banshees.

I don't want to hear something like "I takes finesse to use these two units"... because I can't imagine a situation where the other two aspects can cut it against the killer klowns.

So maybe you can persuade me of their advantages over the harlequins. Personally, I dislike the Harlequins and would love to use some Scorpions and Banshees, but I saddens me a bit that there seems to be a clearly better elite choice in every situation.

Thanks in advance.

Greets
Schepp himself

There is no reason too. I have been telling people this since the codex came out.

6 harlies hit as hard as 10 banshees against MEQ (5 to 5)
6 harlies hit almost hard as 10 Scorpions against GEQ (14.5 vs 10.5, both of which are overkill against the standard 10 man squad)

Basically, everyone already owned banshees and scorpions, so they needed to suck this version. 

A squad of harlies is great... but it is also far more vulnerable to bad luck than the banshees. Trust me, when a unit does get a bead on a unit of harlies with bolters... the harlies die in a messy fashion. And 2 or 3 lost harlies severely depletes your ability to do wounds.

I use harlies but I am very aware of their fragility. The best use for them is against large opponents where rending really comes in handy... and banshess wouldn't stand a prayer.

ender502

It's a rather loaded question, if you don't mind me saying so. The answer is 'you wouldn't' – there's no mathhammer reason not to take space clowns. Not really much to discuss here, in my opinion.

However, other reasons you might like to take other units:

1) You've already bought them.
2) Background/theme
3) You prefer the models
4) You're deliberately steering clear of harlequins because you don't want morons screaming 'cheese'
5) You don't like painting diamonds

 

Execute Internet forum pattern alpha!

10: Print "Question"
20: Print "Reasonable response"
30: Print "Sarcastic Joke"
40: Print "Powergamer Accusation of Cheese"
50: Print 'Pretentious Fluff-nazi response"
60: Print "If I cannot win this argument by reason I will win it by volume/heckling/becoming increasingly pompous"
70: Goto 60

HOW CAN ANYNOE TAKE HARLIES SERIOSLY?!  OMG THEY ARE CLOWNS PPL SCORPIONS KILL CLOWNS!  LOLOMGROFL! 

One of the (arguably not highly effective) reasons to take Scorpions or Banshees is that you can field more overall models.  I'm not saying that they're more survivable or that they hit harder, but if you're feeling a little nervous about a low model count, these could shore up your numbers a bit more (I'm personally scared of running a low model count army; my dice turn on me at times).

Because you look at the painted examples and realize you have no hope to come close to it and do the models justice.

For a serious answer, look here.

Harlies are great... as long as they either get to Hit-n-Run, or a good roll on the consolidation. If not... harlies fall down, go boom. Their success can be their downfall, in the wrong place.

Well, Harlequins have crappy armour, I guess, and they're really expensive. So... if you are strapped for points, you should get Banshees or Scorpions. Seems like a good enough reason to me. Sort of like "why should I get a tactical squad when I could get a veteran squad? Well, a vet squad is more expensive."

As much as I hate Eldar, and Harlies in particular, there's no reason not to take them and put them in Falcons. They're better than both Scorpions & Banshees against their respective specialties, at the same time.

Other than the fact that it's just a brain dead combo, no there's no reason not to.

Posted By stonefox on 04/30/2007 10:10 AM
Because you look at the painted examples and realize you have no hope to come close to it and do the models justice.

For a serious answer, look here.

To Warseer? hahaha!

Just take the Harlies.
They're hella cool as it is. Why not give them awesome rules?

Banshees and Scorpions are much more survivable when being shot, and cheaper to field. Banshees combined with Doom are even more nasty vs MEQ forces. Drop podding marines with bolters just rape harlies, not to mention any other fast mover that can get close and shoot. Tornadoes are absolute Harley and Banshee killers.

Theory hammer is all and great, but I have yet to have harlies make it to battle and they are very easily dealt with.

Yeah, I know that there are counters against the killer klowns, but heck, all these things can counter banshees and scorpions, too.
Scorpions are slow as heck, and banshees are nice and all, but S3 powerweapons aren't as good as 4 rending attacks on the charge.
combine that with the nasty stuff killer klowns get (flip belt, hit and run, furious charge, veil) they are a steal for their points.

And th Veteran vs. Tactical argument is sort of moot. The Veterans aren't used because they don't fulfill the role of the tacticals better and are more expensive. Same with the Killer Klowns vs. Banshees and Scorpions. They may cost a bit less, but are a) less efficient and b) tactically restricted.

And seriously folks, a 5+ Save isn't that much worse than a 4+ save, especially because the 5+ save isn't affected by AP (so heavy bolter/assault cannon and equivalents).

Greets
Schepp himself

And seriously folks, a 5+ Save isn't that much worse than a 4+ save, especially because the 5+ save isn't affected by AP (so heavy bolter/assault cannon and equivalents).

Greets
Schepp himself

 Thank you.  I was about to say, we are comparing light Eldar Assault troops.  Since when is durability a factor?  All of them are easy to blaze away with some rapid firing.  Scorpions have the armor save, but with no fleet that is just more opportunity to hit them.  If Wraithguard were an assault unit, this would be a valid point of contention.

I can not justify using Scorpions. I have never liked them since they came out. Just can't get them to work, and now they are even worse.

Banshees and Harlequins I do use, and it's a moot point when you both die. Banshees die cheaper

16% more of a chance of dying is big when you are getting rapid fired. My banshees in almost every game have been more durable to Marines than Harlequins. But only barely so. If I can get doom in with the banshees, they become nasty. Rending is too random to rely on, and the harleys die in droves to attack backs. I like them both, and will use them both. Scorps I just can't find a use for. Too slow. The armour doesn't make up for that.

     The fact that Scorpions have lost plasma grenades(um....why again?) and the S9 powerclaw pidgeon hole them into only being effective at charging GeQ's in the open. A rare occurence I would expect, disregarding Gaunts. But those are much faster(in all varieties) and will deny the Scorps the charge. As for the assumption of losing the unit and its associated points cost, we also assume the concession that you have sacrificed the unit or have screwed up. Either way is besides the point of deciding which is a more efficient( or powerful, etc.) unit. A unit of banshees that survives grinding into a Marine unit and eventually winning with a few members left and shot to death represents a small difference to a similar situation with Harlies.        

     So really, the comparison is s3 power weapons vs rending to me. The power weapons will be mildly effective in MeQ's killed to aspect warriors lost, but their adaptability to different targets drops sharply as you move into targets with T 5 or greater and/or multiple wound models. Disregarding multi-wound models, rending takes effect right away with sixes rolled to hit, rather than hitting and then depending on rolling 5's or sixes with a smaller dice pool to kill. Harlies get nearly exponentially more efficient the farther up the Toughness scale you go. Banshees will be "no-thang" to a Demon prince, Carnifex, properly tooled Necron Lords, Hive Tyrants and associated Guard, Death Guard, MeQ ridden bike units, Wraithlords, Avatars, and so on and so forth.

     Point is, I would use harlies for the same reasons I use genestealers(which funnily enough, cost about the same). Everything but vehicles is afraid of them, and Eldar have the Falcons to get them around the table when stealers have to hoof it.

Banshees are ideal for killing Sisters.

If your local environment consists of 50% Witchhunters players, they'll be a great investment. Otherwise, Harelquins seem to have a pretty solid advantage.

I don't know. Game experience so far puts them at a toss up in my opinion and list. I like to field both, and people tend to go directly after the harlequins leaving my other CC troops a little better off.

Deep striking units are just murder on the poor harlies, and there is a bit of that around here.

I am not saying harlies are bad,because they are quite good, but they are definitely fragile.

You are all missing the effin' point! Poorly painted Harlequins are an abomination and must not be allowed on the table. Unless you can freehand at least as well as the 'Eavy Metal team, you have no business owning Harlequins, let alone including them in your army. Stick to easily painted figures like Banshees, that are almost as good, but won't draw attention to your deficiencies as a painter.

Posted By fellblade on 04/30/2007 9:57 PM
You are all missing the effin' point! Poorly painted Harlequins are an abomination and must not be allowed on the table. Unless you can freehand at least as well as the 'Eavy Metal team, you have no business owning Harlequins, let alone including them in your army. Stick to easily painted figures like Banshees, that are almost as good, but won't draw attention to your deficiencies as a painter.

Ironically, quoted for truthiness.

COuld one just dress up a genestealer in brightly painted clothes and call him a harlie? Or maybe bald fat IG guys in rarely worn leather jackets and chaps on smaller bikes (relatively speaking to marines) and call them "harlies" or rubbers. Either beats trying to paint that checkerboard pattern, and much more disconcerting

The basic premise of the thread is correct. Harelequins > Banshees and Scorpions. Furthermore they are better than Fire Dragons because if you give them fusion pistols you can kill tanks (how many penetrating hits do you need) while performing other tasks. ragons are limited in that you have to go after a vehicle (or termie unit) and they cannot be everywhere at once. Whereas three harlie units can cover a lot of ground performing secondary melta roles in addition to troop killing.

However there are some compensations.

1. No Wave Serpents. The only thing aspect warriors definately have over Harlequins is the ability to take a full squad of ten and fly them about. This frees up your heavy support somewhat, and while many players will just want Falcons anyway now at least you get a choice.

2. Survivability. Aspects have more armour and bigger squad numbers.

3. Exarchs are better than troupe masters. Banshees and Scorpions exarchs are still very nasty in close combat when properly equipped and make up for squad performance.

4. All in all aspect warriors still do the job they were made for, nothing has changed there. Well at least Howling Banshees and Fire Dragons do.

And Scorps do have their place. They are great against lightly armoured masses of troops. I can just never get them to work well.

Scorps and Banshees both have specific tasks. Harlequins are the Eldar's first multi-role CC unit. They can cover a couple of bases. It fits the Eldar fluff quite well. I will probably always field a unit of Harlequins, and a unit of Banshees. Though because of the cost of the Harley unit I probably will not put any fusion pistols in. If I am that close I just as well charge and try to rend.

Well in my experience if you soot 28 strength four AP 4 shots at the Harlies they all fall down. While you shoot that many shots at Scorpions about half fall down and they charge you. As for Banshees they are much cheaper

Harlies seem so much better in almost every way. Rending + fusion pistols is better offensively and the shadowseer ability is better defensively in every case except for one. Drop pods. I had thought about taking a big walking squad of Harlies (to go with the mounted one) to act as a major deterrent to getting charged in my lines and also as a VP denier in the same vane as the skimmers. However the ability of marines to place a 10-man tactical squad at the doorstep of Harlies has made me rethink that choice.

With the increase points of pods we may not see as many all pod armies, but I'm sure most people will include at least one Drop Pod for use and one pod dropping next to a unit of walking Harlies is all my opponent needs to finish them off. Scorpions on the other hand can probably weather the storm and at least present a counterstroke to those podding marines.

It's a metagame tactical situation, however one that is more common than most.

Vs. Orks scorpian are okay.

Those Warp spider buggers are worse though.
I've yet to fight harlies, but i imagine hit and run will be a *female dog*.

Charge-Rend-flit away(Hopefully into terrain)-Orks get shot up-charge again-rend-rinse repeat.

Posted By Railguns on 04/30/2007 6:14 PM

     The fact that Scorpions have lost plasma grenades(um....why again?) and the S9 powerclaw pidgeon hole them into only being effective at charging GeQ's in the open. A rare occurence I would expect, disregarding Gaunts. But those are much faster(in all varieties) and will deny the Scorps the charge. As for the assumption of losing the unit and its associated points cost, we also assume the concession that you have sacrificed the unit or have screwed up. Either way is besides the point of deciding which is a more efficient( or powerful, etc.) unit. A unit of banshees that survives grinding into a Marine unit and eventually winning with a few members left and shot to death represents a small difference to a similar situation with Harlies.        

     So really, the comparison is s3 power weapons vs rending to me. The power weapons will be mildly effective in MeQ's killed to aspect warriors lost, but their adaptability to different targets drops sharply as you move into targets with T 5 or greater and/or multiple wound models. Disregarding multi-wound models, rending takes effect right away with sixes rolled to hit, rather than hitting and then depending on rolling 5's or sixes with a smaller dice pool to kill. Harlies get nearly exponentially more efficient the farther up the Toughness scale you go. Banshees will be "no-thang" to a Demon prince, Carnifex, properly tooled Necron Lords, Hive Tyrants and associated Guard, Death Guard, MeQ ridden bike units, Wraithlords, Avatars, and so on and so forth.

     Point is, I would use harlies for the same reasons I use genestealers(which funnily enough, cost about the same). Everything but vehicles is afraid of them, and Eldar have the Falcons to get them around the table when stealers have to hoof it.

You pay nearly or over 200 points for a full harlie squad with half Kisses.

You pay nearly the same amount for a squad of Banshees w/ a Farseer + Doom.

Against anything but Wraithlords or TMCs with/ T7, the Banshees with Fortune are much more reliable for causing wounds.

The rending might work, it might not. If you botch the rend rolls, your Harlie unit is likely to get surrounded and wiped, without having killed their target.

At best, they're about even, IMO.

Allthough banshees of course have no ability to deal with Armor. High-toughness targets, on the other hand, can be handled with a lil help from Doom, in my experience.

Most opponents are still deathly afraid of a Banshee charge, and I find they make a better "bait and trap" unit because your opponent doesn't risk wasting his firepower--he's more likely to chase after the unit of Banshees than Harlequins.

Also, Harlequins tend to over-kill, and get rapid-fired immediately. Banshees suffer less from this problem.

I like how you can put the math out and people still choose to tell you that banshees are better.

Or that harlies are somehow more vunerable than banshees, regardless of the fact that they are always in a falcon or CC. (and even have a built in protection system in case they KO the squad in one round by accident)

Also:
10 banshees -160
6 harlies with troop leader and kisses - 158

I am an Eldar player, and I have fought with and against Harlies.  My opinion is that how effective they, and Scorpions, and Banshees are, all depends on what you want them to do.

I'm not going to go into all of the pros and cons of each unit.  In my experience:

Scorpions are great general purpose assault troops, great at tying up large numbers of enemy troops for a couple of turns.

Banshees are good for killing off small squads and lone characters.

Harlies make great fire magnets.  I have yet to see a unit survive to the end of the game.  How much damage they do depends on a lot of different things:  how much they are shot at, how often they can charge, and how many 6's they roll in combat.  On a board with little terrain, or with good fire lines, they are lunch meat, with or without a Shadowseer and their 5+ invulnerable save.  A squad that doesn't get to charge often is wasting their Furious Charge skill, whose bonuses only work when they charge.  If you don't roll many 6's in combat, then they still have to roll to wound (on S3 or 4), and still have to get past the armor save. . .

And all of those options that they have are pricey. . .

Posted By IntoTheRain on 05/02/2007 10:14 AM
I like how you can put the math out and people still choose to tell you that banshees are better.

  I like how you're willing to ignore statements from people who've actually used both units extensively in favor of abstracted mathematical formulae that merely simulate actual gameplay.  Math-hammer can only take you so far before it's time to test things out in the field. 

Well there are lots of other great units in the new eldar codex. If you are a serious tournament player and do not field either Harlequins or Falcons and Eldrad you would most certainly stand a good chance of pulling excellent soft scores.

- Greenie