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Recently there has been a huge debate in regards to our FLGS's painting standards. A minority (2-3) of people that long ago spent $1000 a week for acouple years basically said that they were tired of seeing the store allow unpainted miniatures on the tabletop. Please note that they spent lots of money years ago... not so much in the recent years. nor do they contribute much to the community, and seem to only really complain about stuff.

Their opinion is that an unpainted mini should never hit the table, whether it is a friendly one-off game, or in a tournament. They say that it is dis-respectful to your opponent (even if  your opponent knows and agrees to play against unpainted minis). This hasn't really been an issue, as our policy in the past has been that all tournaments/leagues require minis to have atleast 3 colors on them. This wasn't good enough apparently, because they started complaining, and now want miniatures to be 100% finished before seeing play on the table, for both one-off games and events.

Furthermore, they said the minis should be painted to a decent quality (as judged by themselves). This reeks of elitism and has scared off MANY of our regular gamers, because they just don't want to be around the arrogant paint nazis. The management of the store is good friends with these guys, and commonly agrees with their views on painting, and seemed to be on the verge of taking their stand point and putting in a new policy of requiring 100% finished minis before play.

Words were said, tempers flared, employees and regular gamers both said they would stop gaming if these new painting policies were enforced (100% finished before play). Long story short, the paint nazis came in and took all of the armies they had in the display cases and took them home, and probably won't show up for a very long time. The employees got kinda chewed out for speaking out against the paint nazis (since they are technically customers).

I am wondering, what is the norm in your local gaming stores? Both GW and standard gaming stores? Do they require you to completely finish your army, or have a color requirement?

Personally, to keep business fresh and to make sure everyone is having fun, my policy would basically be "make progress"... if you can't get your 1000 points of orks painted in a week, no sweat.. just make an honest effort to paint them and its all good. For paid tournaments and such I would require a set color requirement, but don't think I'd ever require miniatures be 100% completed ("completed" is a very subjective word).

Just interested to see what other people have to say, and think...

It's a tricky one.

At my local shop they insist on fully painted minis on veterans' nights. I think that's reasonable. When I belonged to a historical club, we always played with painted figures. We didn't have a rule, it simply didn't occur to us not to... the point of tabletop wargames is to use nice toy soldiers! (We occasionally used blank minis if we were starting a new system and didn't have enough forces painted up.)

You can't enforce a standard beyond a minimum three colours and cover up all the bare metal. It's just not possible to make aesthetic judgements about painting quality and specify an objective scale. Where do you draw the line? Minimum four colours, four colours plus shading, inking, gloss or matte varnish, etc.

I agree with you that people should be encouraged to make progress, especially when they are new and haven't had the time to finish everything.

It sounds like the "paint nazis" are using the FLGS as a clubhouse, one they bought membership into a while ago. Ultimately, it is the management of the store that needs to make a decision about what is in the store's best interest, and what standards are met for the store's events. The idea of varying scales of qualifications, based on whether the event is geared towards "veterans" or "newcomers" seems to be an elegant solution to the problem.

This is a very difficult subject. People take pride in their hobbies, and if you spend hours not only painting your army, but also learning how to paint your army, only to go up against someone who seems to have tipped a paint pot over his miniatures, this bound to give you cause to think.

Now, having said that, not everyone has the "ability" to paint miniatures to a great level. Because this is a hobby, no one can tell you how you should enjoy being part of it, and forcing people to paint to a high standard ( or pay someone to paint their armies for them ) is a bit too dictatorial, and will eventually lead to a break down in the number of participants.

A solution I think is to segregate the various players, perhaps, based on the time and effort spent on their armies. So you could have the Elite league, with great painted miniatures, and the Basic league for those who either can't or don't want to spend hours painting miniatures, but simply want to play a great game!

I think by having these leagues, a sense of wanting to be part of the "upper" echelons will encourage some to improve their painting skills, while not necessarilly causing others to be outcast because of their choices.

Posted By Witterquick on 05/16/2007 4:28 AM
It sounds like the "paint nazis" are using the FLGS as a clubhouse, one they bought membership into a while ago. Ultimately, it is the management of the store that needs to make a decision about what is in the store's best interest, and what standards are met for the store's events. The idea of varying scales of qualifications, based on whether the event is geared towards "veterans" or "newcomers" seems to be an elegant solution to the problem.

Agreed. Sounds like the store management needs to take the reigns on this lest they lose their customers.

I'm a little bothered by the event paint scale: I know plenty of veteran players who either don't enjoy or aren't good at painting. Doesn't mean they don't try their hardest, just means their best is not going to measure up to someone else's. So unless Veteran's night is going to have a fairly low standard (e.g. the old '3 colors and based' standard) I think the terminology would be somewhat misleading. Could be my misunderstanding, though.

Also: rather than complain, why not encourage 'fully painted' through escalation leagues, Path To Glory/Warband campaigns and the like, as well as having open paint nights, monthly vows (with some kind of 'award' for those who fulfill their vow), etc? Sometimes having that little push to paint your figs--and knowing that you can field a fully-painted force without having to quit your job or go blind--can help people get over the hurdle.

I think the managers at Hobbytown USA Plano jumped the gun a little on this one.  I'm very familiar with the shop, I come in and browse there about once a week (usually buying more terrain supplies like plasticard than minis, since GW hasn't produced much in the way of orks the past few years).  There's a pretty good mix of customers, from young new players to old veterans.  Having one rule on painting armies is unrealistic given this dynamic.

In an ideal world, everyone one would have a nicely painted army to play, but this will not happen, especially for the younger, less experienced customers.  If you restrict fully painted armies to certain events, I think that's a nice compromise (someone mentioned veteran night).

I would like to note that the "paint Nazis" are current customers.  They might not be buying many minis at the moment, but the store has a league with annual dues, so they're still customers if they've joined the league.

To help encourage further progress on painting armies, why not have dedicated painting days.  I've asked about this specifically, and was told they may start them up on Wednesday nights and sometimes people paint on Sundays but there's no set time on Sunday and I've rarely seen people doing this.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on the subject.  If you come up with a painting night/day, I'll make it a point to participate.  I've been slacking on painting lately and need an excuse to get more productive.

 

 

 

My FLGS, the only questioned ask by the owner, did at least a couple of those mini's/rules/paints/snacks get bought here??? if the answer is yes play on, if no go buy a damn can of soda ya mooch.

Its very loose here in Charleston sc, no paint needed, heck some times models hit the table only half togther ( tanks mostly, but MC too) We typical feel the game  part of the hobby is more important that the painting part. thats not to say we don;t paint, most of us have  armies painted ( 2k of BA, 1k of eldar , most of a 2k IG- here  plus about a 4th of my cryx stuff for warmachine). but we understand that some people suck at painting and some people just don;t have time.

In tournies, as long as its togther its free to be played. we are a strong min/max play group  so that plays into it some also.

I love nicely painted armies.  I love to play against nicely painted armies.  I can count on my nose the number of times I've played with unpainted miniatures.  That said, I think taking a hardline stance against unpainted miniatures is the absolute worst thing that people who love painted armies can do.  What they should be doing is encouraging people to paint their armies, help them out, hold painting events at the store (which would help the owner sell more paint) and even give them lessons.

The guys you're describing sound like total prats and nancyboys; I wouldn't play against them on general principles.  Ugh.

I can't get beyond $1000 a week. How much of an exaggeration is that?

I've never brought my army to a store to play with, because it's not entirely painted; I'd be embarrassed. I have no idea if they have a rule against it or not, but I'm forced to agree with the prats/nancyboys comment above.

It sounds like there was a bit of temper tantrum by the Paint fascists, perhaps spurred on by long simmering resentments on both sides of the issue. As previous posters have said, every store is different, and every club/league/bring and play night has a different feel to it.

That said, the question I have about the demands of the Paint gurus is: are they trying to increase the level of paint quality around them, or are they simply trying to weed out players so they have their clubhouse to themselves?

If it's the latter, than these guys will sulk for a few weeks and than probably start coming around again. they need a swat on the nose and they got one.

If it's the former, and they really just want to see better paint jobs around them, than there are a lot of arugments/ suggestions to be made.
1) Ask them to hold paint clinics. New players can bring their units in, work on them, and get advice from the old guys. I've done things like this, and it can be amazing how simply working around other painters improves everybody's work.
2) Appeal to vanity. Point out that when there are fully painted armies (3 colors plus base) that don't look as good as theirs, the quality of their paint jobs becomes more apparent.
3) Compromise. Enforce 3 colors at tournaments and leagues, but allow them to run a campaign or league where they get to set the painting bar (at any level other than "as good as we think is acceptable.")
4) Simply remind them that both the hobby and the store need new gamers to financially keep it afloat, and encouraging new players is simply better for the growth of the hobby than appeasing a handful of guys with complete armies. It sucks, and it's not fair, but the store is in the business of selling things, not serving as a clubhouse.

I've never heard of a tiff quite as spectacular as that, but I just chalk it up to the stereotype of the socially defunct gamer.

I was not a paint nazi, but I used to be a paint snob- I would never field an unpainted miniature in my army, and I looked down on people who would. But I got better.

As I collected more armies, and they got larger, and I was able to play more and more often, I started to relax my standards. For example, I'd have a unit of minotaurs primered, and I wanted to use them in a friendly game, so I did (and the first time I did, boy, did my friends rag on me!). My opponents do the same thing. Sometimes it's because we didn't have time to finish the unit before the scheduled game. Sometimes we want to try out a unit or model before we invest the money on it (I did that with Rhinox Riders- eventually I bought 4).
Some of the people I game with would proxy empty bases, or movement trays with counters on them. We all agree that's a little extreme, but it happens very rarely.

For friendly games, even sometimes on 'veteran's night', proxies, primers, and unpainteds are no big deal. To be honest, I'm still a bit of a paint snob, in that I'd rather play against a primered army than a poorly painted one.

For tournaments,though, Rogue Traders, even store campaigns- for those I'm definitely a three-colors-and-based paint nazi (and primer doen't count as a color!) I mean, you wouldn't bring a stock car to a Formula One race... you wouldn't enter your minivan in the Dayton 500.

In the situation Gabe describes, I think those veteran players have no valid complaint. They are free to refuse a game against an unpainted or partially painted army. They have no right to demand that everyone paint their army to a standard that boils down to "Old Timer thinks it's adequate/ Old Timer doesn't think it's adequate".

It's all a question of karma. A finished army is good karma. An incomplete army, not so good.

Remember, the Dice gods are always watching.

Those guys are jerks.
If they want to enforce a minimum painting standard then they had better start thier own club or not play at a FLGS.
I ran into a simmalr situation a few years ago when I went to play a game at one of the stores near to me. I found out that (after I had already played a game of 40K) they had "house rules" about how to resolve a certian rules dispute. Now this doesn't seem like a big deal on the surface but what business does a FLGS have in telling me how I play my game? For thier part the FLGS's main function is to sell me stuff. To that end your average store commonly provides space to play and events to attend. House rules at events = A-OK, house rules for league night = fine, house rules for the store when you came in to play your buddy and maybe pick up a new mini = lost sale.
These guys want to turn the FLGS (or thought that they had turned) into thier own private club and that is bad for everyone. Your FLGS is there to serve you, you, you and you. That means all the good people who might shop there. If it got this far already then the FLGS has been handling it wrong from the get go and someone's going to get hurt, the FLGS.
It's my oppinion that they ought to just let the nancy boy whiners flounce away with thier beutifuly painted minis simply because if it wasn't this it would be something else. They want it to be thier club and won't ever be satisfied unless they rule the roost and that is counter productive for everyone involved. It's not your club the owner just let's you use his space (to drive sales) and if you want things to be a little more "elite"... play at home.

I agree with the above statement. I have played armies that are better and worse painted then mine. some people can paint some cant. some want to game and some want to paint. The store is there to cater to all aspects of the hobby. I personaly hate going into stores that have jerks like that. They are to elitist and they forget this is a hobby not a way of life.

By the way there is a poster here called Beefheart.  He may be in love with me I think? Joke

I really hate having to see an army across the table that has obviously had no effort put into it - i.e. basecoat, then two more splashes of color slapped on, but I'm don't freak out if they're not painted. I'd prefer that there be obvious signs that some effort is being invested in the process. I'm going to start to lose patience if I seem the same armless sarge month after month, but aside from doing what you can, I'm not going to try and force my oppenent's to any higher standard, especially since as though I prefer to field my models painted, I'm really not that good at it.

Painting clinics are untapped gold. Its a shame that the owner is a dumb-ass and can't see an opportunity when its stareing him right in the face.


The owner is an idiot and will soon be out of business wondering why everyone left his ass for another store. The poisonous crowd of " Paint Nazis" needs to be culled and someone needs to just take them out of the equasion altogether or tell them to shut thier yaps and do something more then talk.


Leave his ass to his fate and go find another place to play.

If the paint nazis are not part of the solution then they are part of the problem. If they want a painting quality standard that is high, they might want to put forth some effort to get it there. Expecting others to just turn on the magic switch to "pro-painter" overnight is ludicrous.

I'd say the paint nazis need to move out of their mom's basement and get a life. Anyone on this board with kids and/ or a serious job and school schedule or physical impairments will most likely agree that if they wait to play a game until all their minis are painted most likely won't be in on a game until Kirby says he's made a horrible mistake and GW lowers it's prices.
  I envision the paint nazis as resembling personality wise the two guys playing D&D in the basement in the video "Fear of Women."

Posted By Relapse on 05/17/2007 9:11 AM
I'd say the paint nazis need to move out of their mom's basement and get a life. Anyone on this board with kids and/ or a serious job and school schedule or physical impairments will most likely agree that if they wait to play a game until all their minis are painted most likely won't be in on a game until Kirby says he's made a horrible mistake and GW lowers it's prices.
  I envision the paint nazis as resembling personality wise the two guys playing D&D in the basement in the video "Fear of Women."

You took the words right out of my mouth

Hope he washed his hands first.

sounds like elitists to me.

personally, i paint to quite a high standard. however, i don't hold everyone to my standard of painting because some dont have the patience/ability to paint as good as i do. as long as people try, i don't complain about paint jobs. the only thing i dont appreciate is seeing grey armies weekend after weekend without progress. that, in my opinion, should be stopped.

Gotta agree with Relapse too...while in theory I would love if my armies were fully painted I have real life to contend with AND on top of that I'm a super slow painter because I want my stuff to really look good. If my armies had to be fully painted to play, I just wouldn't be playing. In fact, I probably would just stop buying stuff or showing up anymore too. It takes me *years* to finish off my GW armies. And it'll probably take me about a year to finish painting my Hordes army. If you check out my blog you'll see it takes me about a month or so to get one warbeast done. Likewise it took one of my friends about seven years or so to fully finish his Eldar army.

I think those guys need to realize that new players will not be able to field fully painted armies for a long time, and that they should give people some slack. Not everyone can paint minis all day long as they have other hobbies as well, or jobs/family/etc.

the general concensus is that; it is always better to finish an army before you feild it. the FLGS in my area is pretty lax about the painting rule. they are really stingent on the baseing rule though. i take a long time to finish off my armies as well. and i just dont play while im working on them. id rather reveal the finished product all at once than a little bit at a time. but what all this really boils down to is that peopel need to get a grip! if playing against an army that is not finished is the worst thing in their day than i think that they have it pretty good

Posted By KrAyGgEr on 05/17/2007 2:42 PM

the general concensus is that; it is always better to finish an army before you feild it. the FLGS in my area is pretty lax about the painting rule. they are really stingent on the baseing rule though. i take a long time to finish off my armies as well. and i just dont play while im working on them. id rather reveal the finished product all at once than a little bit at a time. but what all this really boils down to is that peopel need to get a grip! if playing against an army that is not finished is the worst thing in their day than i think that they have it pretty good

QFT!

It's good to see that gamers have got something important to moan about... for crying out loud get a life. If it was me I would of told them to shove it where the sun don't shine.

This kind of attitude turns the hobby in to some sort of elite club. You have to have the ability to model up to a high standard before you can play, other wise your not worthy.

I used to only field painted models, but recently have become a bit more relaxed about it because I have so many to paint now. I still try and field a painted army, through choice, but will stick in a squad or two of unpainted models if it makes up the points. I have no problem whatsoever with someone fielding a "silver" army, just as long as they are assembled (no sentinal legs on a base!) then I'm cool about it.

Do people go to there local FLGs to play or to moan about other people unpainted armies? To many complainers and not enough gamers.

This is why I don't play 40k at GW stores/events. I have 3 armies of 40k half-finished, but I do take my time on them and I don't get to paint every evening (I have a life outside of gaming). So I just play 40k at my apartment or at a friend's place. When I started, I was proxying whole armies to see which ones I liked to play before I shelled out for them.

I have brought my Warmachine stuff out to stores to play, even in a tournament. WM official event do not insist on fully painted armies. This has actually encouraged me to spend more time painting my WM stuff than my 40k stuff.

I'd much rather see a few units of nicely painted stuff and a bunch of unpainted / primed figs, than an entire army that has been painted halfheartedly with no shading or highlights (or just painted with a spraycan...) just to satisfy a 3-colours rule. But really, I don't care that much. I game in order to game. I have had crazy amounts of fun playing games like the original Battletech, Car Wars and Dawn Patrol, all of which use cardboard chits / cutouts. And using Space Marines proxied as Tau or Gaunts, or using Rhinos as Chimeras. Any kind of miniature is like a huge bonus compared to a cardboard chit, and a non-proxied mini is a bonus compared to a proxy. The paint job is kind of beside the point.

Car Wars FTW!

Posted By Strangelooper on 05/18/2007 3:03 PM
 a non-proxied mini is a bonus compared to a proxy. The paint job is kind of beside the point.

Exactly.  the problem is however nowadys we have people who just expect to much and complain at any given thing they can find fault with.

"oh your army is not painted properly"  So what its my army I will paint it all black if I want.  hell i paid for it not them.