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From Warseer:

High Elf release: November: Book and Army Box set.

THE BOOK : It is done and on its way to the printers. Written by Adam Troke (I presume with input from the rest of the games developers).

Intrigue at court is gone.
Elves strike first. (Army rule).
Archers can fire in two ranks.
Special Characters include (There could be more but I have not heard it) :
Tyrion, Teclis, Eltharion and Alith Anar as Lords. (Tyrion, Teclis, Eltharion have been there since the first book. Rick Priestly : 'leave none of the old background behind'. Alith Anar : New model).
Korhil and Caradryan (Captain of the Phoenix Guard) as Heroes. (Mentioned in the Nemesis Crown booklet).
There will be three other ‘vanilla’/generic Hero options. (So a new Character type!)
There will be three types of/different Dragons in the book.
There will not be a unit of Drake riders. (Allesio : 'we will not make the same mistake as we did with the pegasus knights).

THE MINIS

Plastic kits: Mostly by Martin Footit.

Characters/Heroes/Commanders (Makes 2 characters one mounted and one on foot).
High Elf Mages (Makes two mages one mounted and one on foot).
Plastic Dragon kit. (75Hastings69 posted this on warseer months ago. Flying horizontally like the old Dragon Masters dragon (for those who remember that far back). It will come with various rider options to represent different character options who can ride it.
Spearmen. (I do not think this includes option for Lothern Sea Guard or armoured archers but possibly able to customise these to represent different provinces).
High Elf Cavalry Plastics. (These were rumoured months ago by 75Hastings69 but I have heard nothing).
Plastic Chariot kit with option of Lion steeds. (Dave Thomas)

Metal

Alith Anar. (Gary Morley).
Possibly a new eagle.
Lothern Sea guard including a Sea guard Captain/Commander with a Sea hawk on his wrist and a standard bearer with a carved wooden leg. The art work for the seaguard is a lot more ‘gritty’ than the old look. (More ‘sea dog’ than Sea Elf!) I don’t know if these are part of a bigger ‘redo’ of the Sea Guard models or not.

From Asur.org

All 0-1 limitations are gone (like every other army)

Spearmen come with heavy armour and shield.

Archers shoot with an extra rank if they don't move.

Sea Guard are now Special, come with light armour (they fight on water after all), spear, long bow and shields. Fight in three ranks, shoot in two, the commander can take magic items and the unit can take a magic banner. Some sort of Ambush rule for them like Dwarf Miners or Beastmen.

The following HE units will be getting Ilthilmar Plate (4+ save)

Swordmasters
Phoenix Guard
Dragon Princes
White Lions

Giant Eagles and chariots are no longer 2 for 1.

Apparently Phoenix Guard will now be Unbreakable and have 2 attacks each.

Swordmasters are -1 to hit with missile weapons S5 or less. They get some special sword fighting forms as well.

Heroes can ride dragons!

Everqueen is back with her maidenguard (no new models).
______________

My take on this:

The Good

No Intrigue at Court - Needed to go, a stupid rule that was IIRc added on a whim just before printing of the last army book.
Archers firing in two ranks - Good if,and only if they realise 12pts is too much.
Spearelves - Heavy armour is much more sensible.
Ithilmar Plate - This will mean good character loadout and 1+ saves for Dragon Princes. I like this. High Elves should have quality armour.
Phoenix Guard - Now they are T3 trollslayers, worth 15pts each. For High Elves I think they could be very welcome. That is if they cost 15pts.

I will be happy to see a 4+ save Elf infantry army, now let us see the points values.

The Guesses
Drakemasters are back? - As per Beastmasters on manticores. Probably using the Drake rules from War of the Beard, basically a S3 firebeathing Griffon with 4+ scaly skin.
Great Dragons ? Try a (likely) S7 T7 dragon for your Prince instead of the normal type. Imric will end up riding one, so you make your own Imric -hence his absense from the character list.

The Bad
Its a guess but I think that GW will think fire in two ranks is good enough, archers are now worth their points. Just because you can take more of them doesnt help them being overpriced. Maybe just maybe this has been thought through though.

Elves Strike First - Give this guy who wrote this book a banana! What is the point of a manoeuver game with charge and countercharge if you are going to strike first anyway. High elves are improved by this, but its just game destroying, it removes tactics from the game. Sure zombies get the opposite, sure you still get lance bonuses if you charge them, but come on. I will have to look at the wording, but dont High Elves normally strike first anyway on Initiative.  So I suspect this means when charged. If not when charged, then its more reasonable, but doesnt deliver much and could just be a hollow excuse not to deal with points imbalances.

Oh. My.

Great to hear what's happening with the HElves, and there are some intense changes in store for what is/was one of the weaker armies, IMO. Some really intense changes, in fact ...

Anyone have a link to the plastic dragon(s)? I don't recall seeing it before. Look forward to seeing the other platic kits too, especially after how good the WElves turned out.

- Boss Salvage

Will Silver Helms get the Combat Squads rule?

BYE

I've been wanting to get into Fantasy through High Elves for the last 5 years.

But until they replace those god-awful "hobbits in white dresses" archers, it ain't gonna happen.

"strike first" isn't game breaking as much as any other rule. It gives elite, high cost elf infantry a chance when charged, but charging and maneuver have it's place. It's still all about multiple charges, and rumor is that it's only when charged from the front. So getting in the correct charges is still the game. Softening them up with some fire first is another bit of tactics. Elf infantry won't be the overcosted laughing stock they have been for quite some time.

Strike First removes a lot of the tactics from the game - Elves don't need to worry about getting the charge in anymore. Of course with their high movement and initiative, they'd generally be going first anyway.

Aside from that, it looks very good. I'll definitely consider picking some up if the plastics are good.

Posted By Orlanth on 05/17/2007 5:40 AM
Alith Anar. (Gary Morley).

I predict that, much like the Chaos possessed, this model with be hilarious.  I can't wait!  Is Trish Morrison doing the new dragon?

Posted By Asmodai on 05/17/2007 9:59 AM
Strike First removes a lot of the tactics from the game - Elves don't need to worry about getting the charge in anymore. Of course with their high movement and initiative, they'd generally be going first anyway.

Aside from that, it looks very good. I'll definitely consider picking some up if the plastics are good.

Unless your definition of tactics is nothing more than relying on the strike first benefit of charging then tactics are not removed. You will have to change tactics thats all, and handle a different opponent in a different way.

Don't oversimplify his point, in order to make yours.

With a few (character) exceptions, every other army needs to charge, in order to gain the advantage of striking first (and let's not kid ourselves, it's a huge advantage, as it tends to negate return fire). If the rumors are true, that whole consideration is just plain gone for High Elves, which simplifies their tactical considerations, as compared to all the other armies.

There are a bunch of units out there (fliers, Daemonette cavalry, other light cavalry) that depend on large charge ranges, in order to get the charge, strike first, and punch through. All such units would be much less useful against High Elves, as they tend to be lightly-armored, low toughness targets, and getting hit first will strip most of their combat power.

To simplify my point: discarding a major game mechanic for an entire army is not something to do lightly, and I can only hope it wasn't a casual decision. Models that always strike first are otherwise very limited and quite expensive; it will be interesting to see if there is a decent point premium associated High Elf units as a result, or if they're over/under-expensive as a result.

And then we go with tactics, hitting the front with the knights or heavy armour guys and flanking with the light nasties. Dependoing on what the rule is, you adjust tactics accordingly. It's not game breaking. Just a new tactical consideration.

16 spears is still just 15 str 3 spears.

So does anyone actually know what the rule is or is this all just assumption that the rule pertains to combats? What if it's a rule that lets the high elf player, if he so chooses, to force a reroll of both players dice when determining who gets the first turn or something. Thus increasing the likelyhood that "Elves strike first." Just saying is all.

"Strikes First" is a pretty common game term. Elves are Elves.

Admittedly though, GW isn't the best at being consistent with their terminology.

It could be another case of where not knowing fear is distinct from being fearless.

Posted By Asmodai on 05/17/2007 2:43 PM
"Strikes First" is a pretty common game term. Elves are Elves.

Admittedly though, GW isn't the best at being consistent with their terminology.

It could be another case of where not knowing fear is distinct from being fearless.

Nobody here has seen the new High Elf army book, but someone is already complaining about the way the rules are worded

Perhaps its the wording of the rumour that is inaccurate.

Posted By sircarstic on 05/17/2007 3:04 PM
Nobody here has seen the new High Elf army book, but someone is already complaining about the way the rules are worded

Perhaps its the wording of the rumour that is inaccurate.

We choose to ignore that possibility, as that would reduce the amount of entertainment we can derive from the rumor. 

How do these people get jobs with GW when they obviously don't know a darn thing about the game background.

Elfs, from 1st edition, have been a dying race (as well as a dyeing one) in TERMINAL DECLINE. So ALL Elf units should be 0-1 and they should be getting less effective with each edition. By now they should be T2, S2, which would also fit the models.

But no, the bean counters know Elfs=sell so they just run roughshod over the fluff for a few extra books.

To Toreador:

Something else to think about. I'm going to approach this "Strike First" as similar to DOW pike-equipped units.

Well quantity, has a quality all its own. It doesn't really matter if all your attacks are str 3, or shoot even strength 2 (such as Sharp Stuff) if all your attacks get to go first. Getting first strike at something gives you the chance to completely disorganize a charge.

Anyway, Pike units, which have a "First Strike" ability, are large or oversized unit to max out the ability to strike first. This is largely negated as Pike's are used by mere humans, thusly, about 1/2 your attacks will hit. Not only that, Pikes don't get this "First Strike" advantage if attacked from the flanks or rear.

That being said, if you have a 30-pike strong unit, your opponent has to be willing to risk taking some 15 hits. 15 hits, even at strength 3, will cause some amount of alarm.

Quantity has a quality all its own.

The GW reps were at my FLGS last night, making sure he's carrying all the stuff he's supposed to, dedicating enough shelf space to LotR, etc. We had a chat, and I asked about the new HE. The GW reps seemed to believe that all HE will strike first, all the time. They also mentioned the possibility of armies with more than one dragon- without any Lord-level characters. They said that none of the current HE plastic models will be changed.

Now realistically I doubt they have seen the army book yet, but I would tend to weight their opinions a bit more heavily than the average gamer's.

Multiple dragons without taking a lord?

All elves strike first all the time?

Sounds like he was pulling your leg.

I could see drake riders, some kind of little dragon-esque thing. I could see Strike First with some restrictions (certain units, only to the front, etc.).

Hrm. Nobody else noticed the spear elves now have heavy armor? So, now elf basic infantry is as well armored as dwarven warriors and chaos warriors w/ a 3+ save! That's pretty nifty. And firing in 2 ranks is a big deal, especially if they can fire in 3 on a hill. Will it make them worth 12 points a model? If they have long bows, probably. Sure, it's not gun powder, but it is more accurate fire. And if they always strike first, they are harder to deal with than many shooters.

Unbreakable Phoenix Guard could be amazing. Picture huge units of unbreakable, 2 attack, 4+ AS, fear causing PG, always striking first. If they have a crazy defensive hero to stick in there, that would be quite a formidable block, even if expensive!

Yeah, that will be nifty.

Re: Multiple non-Lord 'Dragons'

I doubt each dragon would be as big as Karl Franz's. They likely mean some sort of Drake/Wyrmling type Dragon mount will be available to Hero characters (Commanders or the new hero type). I doubt that these dragons will be S6, T6, W6.


From the rumors so far I'm looking at for an approx. 2K army:

Lord and Heroes (waiting to see what the actual choices are)

Core: 2x 30 Spelfs, 2x 15 Archers (?), 2x 6 Silver Helms (for flanking, etc.)

Special: 2x 5 Elyrian Reavers, maybe Dragon Princes or Bolt Throwers

Rare: Phoenix Guard, Handmaidens


With the new rules, this sort of combined arms HE army will be a lot more viable. It looks like it would be a lot of fun to play too.

What do the handmaidens have going for them again? Besides being more-feminine elves

- Boss Salvage

Posted By Boss_Salvage on 05/18/2007 7:52 AM
What do the handmaidens have going for them again? Besides being more-feminine elves

- Boss Salvage

They're nice models - I haven't heard about White Lions getting anything new, so they'll be a better looking elite infantry unit.

I'm hoping that they'll get a free minor hero (RoR style), but not really expecting that.

Posted By jmurph on 05/18/2007 6:51 AM
Nobody else noticed the spear elves now have heavy armor? So, now elf basic infantry is as well armored as dwarven warriors and chaos warriors w/ a 3+ save! That's pretty nifty.

Arrgh!  No, that's not nifty.  It's the whole "let's balance all armies by making them the same" concept.  Look, everyone gets 3+ sv in HtH!  Balanced!  Meanwhile I don't see Dwarfs getting a M of 5 and being able to take high magic.

'course, I am a bit biased.

Posted By Mannahnin on 05/18/2007 6:38 AM
Multiple dragons without taking a lord?

All elves strike first all the time?

Sounds like he was pulling your leg.

I could see drake riders, some kind of little dragon-esque thing. I could see Strike First with some restrictions (certain units, only to the front, etc.).

I take it as given by combining both rumour sources. As its multiply sourced its more likely to be true:

1. The hero dragon is probably a Drake as from War of the Beard. It will likely cost two hero slots for the pair.

War of Beard Drake stats:

Drake             M6        Ws5            Bs0           S5            T5            W5            I3            A4            Ld7

Fly, Large Monster, Terror, Breath Fire S3, Scaly Skin 4+ save (War of Beard only)

I hope you get a choice of Giffon instead

2. First strike is likely from the front only, but that is still broken in terms of tactical gameplay.

"It will likely cost two hero slots for the pair"

You mean, take two heroes, and mount them on drakes, right? Because the new army books don't have any 0-1 restrictions, and no more 'takes a special and a rare' or 'takes an additional hero choice' or any of that bumpf.

Asmodai:

As a RoR player, none of the RoR heroes are free. Some are costed a bit better than others, but you always pay for them.

Sounds like LOTR (movie) where the orcs/goblins charge and the Elves attack first. But until it is in black and white who knows exactly, however it is pretty ominus in the wording. Unless they are trying to pump their sales up by making uber rules for units and tio hell with game balance.

Sounds like LOTR (movie) where the orcs/goblins charge and the Elves attack first. But until it is in black and white who knows exactly, however it is pretty ominus in the wording. Unless they are trying to pump their sales up by making uber rules for units and to hell with game balance.