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Every forum I go to seems to have a bunch of people angry at GW. There are several types of haters.  Which one are you and your pals?

1) People who loved GW and now feel they turned their backs on them with the quality and where the game  is going.

2) People who spent too much money on minis and feel that now they have to start all over again with another game.

3) People who take this all way way to seriously.......

Probably a little bit of 1 and 3.
Used to be an avid fan, then 40K went down the toilet.
40K is the only thing I have big issues with, still love fantasy, Gothic, Epic and the skirmish games.
Just a grumpy old Ork here.

1, 2 & 3

the only thing i don't like is the over simplification of the rules lately. other than that 40k is great.

I am pretty happy with 40K.

If I were not happy with the game, I would not play it, and I would definitely not hang out on a 40K website *female dog*ing about the game all the time. It seems so sad to me to read the posts of disgruntled ex-40K players prophesise the death of GW every day.

I keep hanging out on a 40K website hoping that the enthusiasm might be infectious.
I'm 1,2 & 3 too.
I take my hobby pretty seriuous-like, I'll tell you what.

I support GW, by which I mean that I support designers like Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson and artists like Jes Goodwin and John Blanche. I consider myself to be a loyal art patron, and will probably continue to buy GW products of one kind or another for as long as my favorite creators are employed there. I don't expect to love everything they make to death any more than I expect to love every single film my favorite director makes. I am not satisfied with the current 40K rules, but they are sufficient for the occasional game. I look forward to a new 5th edition with a greater variety of interesting tactical choices and fewer rules devoted to the difference between a meltagun, a fusion gun, and a fusion blaster.

I always come back to GW. I experiment with other games and systems, but I always end up back with GW.

I only hit GW because I love it. That and I don't know how to express my emotions in a constructive manner.

But seriously, other than idiotic rules, ungodly prices, seemingly feedback-phobic designers, and a lack of Orks in Space, I have no problems with Games Workshop.

omg the joker!!!!!!


okay, back OT.

i thought of one thing i didn't like about gw. they havn't advanced the story at all since i started playing (Adding tau doesnt count). i wish that there would be some story development.

They've pretty much said that they won't advance the story.

I?m 32; I've been buying and painting G.W. figs since I was 12. I started Playing when second edition box set with orks, Gretchen and Space marines came out. Being able to build armies and heroes had me hooked.

I believe G.W. charges a bit too much to make the same kind of extra spending cash purchases. Like buying a blister pack that was 5.50 with a hero or 2 troops in it.
You know when a few bills in your pocket could buy some stuff to paint on a bored night.
With that being said I love the amount of things that can be done with the plastics that G.W. makes for us. You really get a nice set of models with lots of parts. I always wanted a plastic marine general and they made one. I just don?t think you get enough for your buck. They don?t have enough competition to make their price drop? 3.50 per tac marine, 4.00 per scout (wtf) and 10.00 per terminator is a very steep price considering what Bandai can do for 20 bucks?you can get a rather big mecha model for 7.99, high detail and all. A lot more plastic than a terminator, same process?there is no excuse.

I used to be a BIG fan of White Dwarf?then it became one big commercial. The Eavy metal section went from being an ?open? forums of artist painting and converting excellent G.W. figs to it being an ad for what?s selling at the moment. Also other things like lack of rules?etc

I still buy G.W. models and will continue to until they are in price range for a more upper crust, But as for now because they aren?t a simple 20 bucks a box but nearly 40?I can?t make the same ammount of purchases.

There is always a tipping point G.W. will loose too many clients and money for guys like me having to buy fewer models out of pure economics.

The constant changing of the rules is how they keep the culling cycle, us trying to 4.5 patch our armies or buying the newest Power army.

I love G.W. and their products, I wish they were a bit cheaper, white dwarf sucks and seems to only shine once in a blue moon. G.W. employees are rude, it?s very true not a myth?.
And I?m Hooked? I just hope it?s never gets so expensive that only a guy who can afford a Rolex, Benz and some Dill wad tie for his Biff boy 3 piece suit can buy a tac squad. Until then I?ll still play and buy new codices. But let?s hope people don?t Pump G.W. heads too much so that they figure they can charge what ever they want?

GW makes crap models, and crap rules and has horrid customer service.

Unfortunately, they also kidnapped my sister, and will kill her if I don't spend at least $100 on new miniatures each month.

i agree with deadly

the prices are way to high for what you get

 

i guess it is a little of 1, 2 &3 for me as well

first i do love the game and the models especially the newer ones are fantastic, now here are the problems

 

1.price

GW are literally pricing themselves out of business, its a supply and demand market, if your prices are reasonable people will buy, if they are to high for a product that lacks equivalent value, then people will not buy. new GW higher prices at the same time as a profit loss-coincidence? i think not.

2.rules

they need to look around the miniture wargaming community, stop acting like an elitist model maker that has this game on the side. start making a rule set that is solid. a rule for every situation, no more "use common sense" "dice off" etc...

when fannpro made the new rules for total warfair (battletech) they have a solid rules set with a book about the same size as the BBB with hundreds fo pages. where the BBB only has like 80 pages of rules and the rest is fluff and other stuff the TW book has about 40 pages of fluff and the rest is nothing but rules. there are no huge lengthy discussions of  rules interpretations and conflicts because it is all covered.

3.options

the trend with the new DA dex is a trend in the wrong direction. the whole point of 40K was the customization of an army to make it your army not jervis's army are andys army etc.. dumbing down the game and limiting the options really takes away from the game that is 40K. it has good fluff and a rich history that shouldn't be destroyed by game designers who don't seem to know the rules for thier own game system.

 

 

You know, I have pretty much stopped complaining about the prices. Yes, I think it is crazy to pay $25 for a single 25mm figure, especially when the price is based more on the figure's rules, which can be altered, than the figure's quality as a model. However: 1) I am relatively price-insensitive. If I really want it, I will buy it, and I will even pay full retail. 2) There are lots of places to get the figure without paying full retail, starting with internet stores and working out from there. 3) I have been in this hobby for a long time, and already own many miniatures. The Skarsnik & Gobbla figure that I bought years ago will work just fine in the current edition, after I rebase it. My old Kurt Helborg and Ludwig Schwartzhelm are on the same size base as the new figures, they will do nicely, thank you.


What gets me about GW is, they put out new editions of their rules, but the new edition is not an improvement. They seem to have moved to a Microsoft business model now: release a new edition and people will buy it, even if the only real changes are that the graphics got prettier. 7th ed. Fantasy is not better than 6th ed.; some things have been simplified, but many of the rules ambiguities were not addressed, and I do not think simplifying things automatically improves the game. We are seeing change to drive sales, rather than change to improve the product. As Samwise once said, "They pump up a unit until everyone has bought three, then nerf it because it is 'too powerful'."

I have the same complaints as most. GW just doesn't seem to listen to the players anymore. There are some serious holes in their rules that really need to be patched up, but they just don't do it. They could do it in FAQ's, they could do it in White Dwarf, they could do it between editions, or they could do it by some sort of special release 4.5 edition rule book or something but the fact is that they simply don't do anything. The solutions are many, varied, and don't have to be particularly costly. Heck, the "You Make The Call" forum has a sticky thread with a list of rules problems, start there, pick one of the suggestions for each question and post it on their web site as an official FAQ. Problem solved with minimal effort. Do they do it? No they don't.

The constant rules shifting to make units that were good suck and units that sucked good has started to smell less of missed attempts at balance and start to reek of moves to sell overstocked models.  In their defense though, the fact that shining spears are not uber death machines shows that I could be wrong on this issue.

Pricing models based more on what the rules for the figure are instead of what materials and production cost for the model were also chafe my sensibilities. Look at other manufacturers. Look at the quality of their sculpts as well as the amount of materials involved in their minis. Then compare prices and you will generally find that GW models are way more expensive for what you get.

Its things like these that make me not want to support GW anymore since they don't seem to want to support me. Now a days I buy all my minis second hand and I try to vere towards buying paint and other hobby supplies from other vendors. I'm putting my money where my mouth is and keeping it out of GW's pockets till they do what I want.

The price-point and the rules go hand in hand. Every time I think about giving them a second chance, I balk at the price - not because the price/model is high, but that I feel that I'll get questionable use out of the models due to the poorly written ruleset. I won't play a game if I don't find it fun...

Its like paying top dollar for a "luxury" high performance car with a tempermental engine and a spotty maintenance support!

And to be honest, attitude counts for a lot with me. i find myself drifting more toward WOTC partially because they have a much nicer attitude. GW seems to have a like it or lump it attitude much of the time, which is incredibly damaging and really unnessicary.
I agree that 7th edition Warhammer isn't much of an improvement on 6th. I like how magic is done and some of the combat resolution, but it's not like they fixed anything that drastically needed to be fixed.
No, wait, Terror. They fixed Terror.

 

Maybe a little bit of one.

I feel they need a technical writer and more proofreading on the rules. Too many loopholes for people to "create" rulings that benefit them, despite the obvious discrepancies with the rules as written.

I don't care about the prices. People complained about them 8 years ago when I got into the hobby. I recognize that the company needs to make a profit, that there is risk in business, and that to keep the hobby going, they need to make money. I prefer to buy from the FLGS so I have a place to play at.

If their models were truly overpriced, then why hasn't another company come along, severely undercut their prices and recruited hordes of people to play their games? The price differences I have seen have amounted to almost nothing.

As for GW overpricing itself out of business, GWUS is in profit and they expect the two regions that did poorly to fix themselves. Remember that Europe isn't as well off as America. France, which once had the number 1 GW store in the world now has what, an 8% unemployment rate? A bad national economy can go a long way to hurting a company's earnings. Now that France has a new leader, one may see things bounce back there.

 

Maybe a little bit of one.

I feel they need a technical writer and more proofreading on the rules. Too many loopholes for people to "create" rulings that benefit them, despite the obvious discrepancies with the rules as written.

I don't care about the prices. People complained about them 8 years ago when I got into the hobby. I recognize that the company needs to make a profit, that there is risk in business, and that to keep the hobby going, they need to make money. I prefer to buy from the FLGS so I have a place to play at.

If their models were truly overpriced, then why hasn't another company come along, severely undercut their prices and recruited hordes of people to play their games? The price differences I have seen have amounted to almost nothing.

As for GW overpricing itself out of business, GWUS is in profit and they expect the two regions that did poorly to fix themselves. Remember that Europe isn't as well off as America. France, which once had the number 1 GW store in the world now has what, an 8% unemployment rate? A bad national economy can go a long way to hurting a company's earnings. Now that France has a new leader, one may see things bounce back there.

Does anyone find it absurd that acronyms for 'On Topic' and 'Off Topic' are both 'OT'.

Umm... anyway, back OT... or was it OT... not sure.

I would say 1.

I've played since just before 2nd Ed started, and while I love playing 40K (our version of it anyway), and building cool minis (we've finally branched out into Forge World stuff), I hate GW.

• Their rules are $#it. Really $#it. And they're not getting better with Jervis at the helm.
• Their prices are unjustifiably overpriced (no matter how much Torador likes to celebrate the latest price increase).
• Their excuses for price increases are just as bad, as are their attempts to say that things are going down "Yeah, the regiment boxes might have gone up by 33%, but that pot of point is now 5c cheaper!!!".
• They don't care about anyone except their (rapidly shrinking) bottom line.
  

  I don't begrudge them for wanting to make money, but it'd be nice if they'd make a product worth the money first.
  
  BYE

I tend to agree with mughi3 and H.B.M.C. I have been playing for 11 yrs now and probably fall a bit into all 3 categories.

I have continued to buy GW products even through the increases (at a much reduced amount and frequency). I increasingly buy from online stores for discounts and used. It is really lame to blame GW's sagging profits and an economical down turn. Sure there are divisions that are still making money. But the way they are jacking us just a little more each year and treating those of us who consider ourselves vets are going to take a terrible toll eventually. While it is the younger crowd who only stay for a yr or two who bring in a lot of the profit, we vets have been and always will be the backbone of the hobby. GW takes this for granted and assumes that we will keep buying no matter what they do. The hubris and arrogance of this attitude are not only ridiculous, but insulting. And more vets are taking the same line and either reducing their purchases or cutting them completely.

The rules have always had holes i them and they have never tried to patch them. Why? I really can't come up with any logical answer. I understand human mistakes, but to refuse to fix any of them?? I'm tired of GW employees toting whatever rulebook as bible according to God and that we should use "common sense" when playing. Common sense is fixing whatever mistakes your customers have brought to your attention. The future of 40k in the DA style has me dismayed and angry. I don't want the same cookie cutter army everyone else has. The fact that they are simplifying everything in the name of "balance" proves they have just given up on making the quality rules they were known for and balancing it. To me simplification does not equal balance, though it does mean boring. With GW there would be loopholes no matter how simple the game is.

Its been said but I really hate WD. I only still have a subscription because it was a gift. I usually go through it and count the advertising and there is usually 1/3 of it is pure advertising. I'm supposed to spend $10 can and issue on this S#@* ? To me its another indication where the hobby is going. I'm lucky if I find one article a month with some substance. Though I've never been a fan of painting articles. The argument for this change? The mag is chiefly for kids new to the hobby. When did this happen?? I understand trying to broaden it to appeal to more youth, but the mag has become as sophisticated as a bazooka joe comic and much less funny. Even at 12-13 when I started I loved the in depth tactica and fluff articles. Just because they are kids doesn't make them stupid. The "standard bearer" articles are really aweful. They say nothing about how/why a particular army/rule/unit are changing. Everytime I read one I want to choke JJ. What an arrogant gakker. He's reminding me more and more of Goge Vandire.

Sorry to vent a bit, but I think there is a lot of truth to what most are sayig on this thread. Just thought I'd add my own 12 cents since GW certainly doesn't care about what we think. I'd like to finish by adding stuff that I do like about GW. I love nearly everything the Black Library produces. I'm a fluff nut who would die without books. I've bought every 40k book since they started publishing and have just started to dabble into a few fantasy titles. The campaign/backround books are excellent and I often re-read them. The merchandise is also very nice, I wear my Tanith tag everywhere.

Forge World also continues to make excellent models and terrain. I have yet to buy anything myself, but plan on splurging on several hundred dollars of Death Corps in a year or two. The detail of the models, the extent of their armies and the depth of the backround in their books are a shining example of what 40k could be. Its great to see that something that was started just for treadheads has blosomed into something wonderful for all of us (that can afford it). Though I have no qualm with FW prices even if I can't afford them currently.

I'd also like to note that I don't believe I take the hobby too seriously. I am serious about where it is going because I love it and it is a big part of my life. It is fun for me and very relaxing. I'm serious about what GW owes us vets, yes I said owe. WE are the customers and WE have been playing a long time, many as long as those at GW HQ. If GW continues to treat us like disgruntled children than their bottom line will suffer. Since thats the only thing they care about prehaps they'll eventually listen. I'm not hopeful though. Whatever happened to "the customer is always right?"

The thing that gets me, is the serious lack of logic behind their games.

What I mean, as my main point (as I could go on all day, but won't), is the new direction:

They are 'dumbing-down' the rules, and WD, to make the game "more accessible to kids", and yet the prices keep rising to extortionate levels. how you can expect kids to get into a game that totally rips off the parents is beyond me, especially when it is the parents who will make the first purchases.

For example, I have hung out in the same GW store since 3rd Edition was 1/2 way through (I'm only 18). Britain (where I live) has had a continuous boon of economic growth in that time, that has kept spending money nigh constant thanks to Interest Rates imposed by the government, and rising house prices, which means parents have the same amount to spend on their kids (and it can also be argued more money than before).

It used to be that a parent (usually mum) came in with a kid that wanted in the game, and bought the starter pack and a squad, or a few blisters - maybe even a boxed army deal.

Nowadays, about one in every 7 parents actually buys anything, or is seen again. The BIGGEST sale to a parent/child outing this year (so far) has been a Starter Hobby Set (paints, clippers etc box) and a snap-together MArine box. That's it - the biggest sale.

I constantly hear parents complaining about how much things cost.


I KNOW that kids are a vital part of the hobby, me and 2 mates in my year are solely responsible for keeping our local (small) GW afloat. Because Veterans have stopped buying, as the game is becoming 'too basic', and new people aren't getting in, because it's too expensive. THAT is my beef with GW, and it's a high management issue, and one that will not be sorted out any time soon, I fear.

Well, to make the game totally accessable to kids, they'd want prepainted plastic crack.
And I hope they never go down that road.

Reason #4, Apathy on the part of all involved.

I was an avid player of 40K and WFB, WH RPG, Necromunda, Gorkamorka,BFG, Dark Future, and occasional playing of Blood Bowl, Hero Quest, some side skirmish games, and one offs, and Space Hulk, Tyranid Attack, Space Crusade, and finally... Mordhiem.

Then the company decided that They knew what was best, and ruined the product.This company has fallen on hard times, and they are too arrogent to admit it, unfortunate, but it wil be thier downfall, all the while crying about how the public has turned thier backs on them.
There is no Claim. It is a fact that the company is now in it for the short money, and they do not care, or want established consumers. They want rubes that they can feel that they can fleece into buying overpriced, defective, and missing product. The Prepainted crack is only a few thousand slave labor paint brush strokes away.

Posted By Darrian13 on 05/28/2007 11:31 AM
I am pretty happy with 40K.

If I were not happy with the game, I would not play it, and I would definitely not hang out on a 40K website *female dog*ing about the game all the time. It seems so sad to me to read the posts of disgruntled ex-40K players prophesise the death of GW every day.

DItto.

I like the Canadian Tournament scene. I like the models. I like the game.
That being said, I'm switching to Fantasy for this tournament season.

Posted By roneldar on 05/28/2007 9:48 AM
2) People who spent too much money on minis and feel that now they have to start all over again with another game.

That is the way I feel in a nut shell.  My main two armies are Dark Eldar and Lost and the Damned.  Granted, there have been rumors about DE no longer being supported to they are going to get and new codex.  But, nothing solid.  I know that LatD are rumored to possibly be in the "Codex: Daemonica", but if that is to accually come out remains to be seen.

My biggest gripe is my LatD.  I started that army due to the fact that I can make it my own.  The majority of my army is stuff that I have put together on my own.  No box of LatD Troops from GW, but me buying misc. boxes and piece and parting my way to an army.

Now, GW could make a new CSM Codex that makes my LatD army null and void.  Hey, GW.  Bite me.

My scratch built LatD army, that I took my time and effort to make on my own, is no longer a "official" army by your choice.  Hey, GW.  Stick it!

I have let my actions prove my displeasure of your product.  I have taken my money and time to another company.

Posted By roneldar on 05/28/2007 9:48 AM

Every forum I go to seems to have a bunch of people angry at GW. There are several types of haters.  Which one are you and your pals?

1) People who loved GW and now feel they turned their backs on them with the quality and where the game  is going.

2) People who spent too much money on minis and feel that now they have to start all over again with another game.

3) People who take this all way way to seriously.......

Most GW forums are overly sensitive...almost allergic...to critical examination of GW games. The three critiques you outline are stereotypes, but so is your characterization of "haters."

What is it with GW fanboys vs haters?   Discussion should be based on context and substance rather than what "camp" you belong to.  Most GW "haters" are simply trolling for attention, but so are most fanboys.

Distilling everything to,  "If you suggest this you're a troll hater or mindless fanboy."  ... Is the type of straw-man paradox that plagues GW forums.   Any thread that resorts to name-calling should be avoided.