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Hi Guys

I was reading some fluff in the Dark Angels Codex, and it suddenly struck me how a Space Marine Chapter could easily get around the old "ONLY 1000 MARINES" limit.

I was thinking, most Chapters have no real limit on how many Scouts can be in the Tenth company....now, lets imagine you are the Chapter Master ( CM ) of a relatively successful Marine Chapter, and lets assume you don't throw your Marines at every fire-fight possible so that your Chapter teeters on the brink of destruction! You would have a full compliment of Space Marines and a continously growing brotherhood of Scouts.....

At some point the Scouts, due to continous training, battle, etc, would be to a standard that would be equal to most Marines...every battle would see their experience grow.....so effectively although you'd have 1000 Marines in Marine armour, you have well over a 1000 Marines ( albeit in Scout armour ) availible for any ingagement.

Is this thinking floored? Have I missed something or is this common knowledge?

Heh. It's a fun idea, like the offshore corporate account of Marine-Corp.

But there are two important points that make it unlikely in the 40k world:

1) Marines don't think like that. They're religiously, subliminally and hypnotically indoctrinated warriors with a system full of a brutal cocktail of genetic engineering and bio-drugs. Such subtle Machiavellianism would be against their nature the same way a Medieval peasant would refuse to pretend to be a priest.

2) Zygotes and geneseed. A chapter has only a limited number of Zygotes available for implantation, and even if they have zygotes, a geneseed has to be present for them to work in the recruit's body. In the 40k universe, obtaining or growing new geneseed is near-impossible and Zygotes are little better. Most chapter's Biologis Techmarines probably have to work around the clock to keep up, and even then, Chapters have to extract the geneseed from dying marines wherever they can. Finding the extra raw materials for that many recruits...eh, unlikely.

Cool idea though...maybe getting around those two reasons would be a good reason for a Chapter to go renegade.

-Adso

Delephont you just described the Black Templars.

Orion

Exactly, I was thinking BTs as well.

Posted By BrotherAdso on 09/21/2007 6:40 AM
Heh. It's a fun idea, like the offshore corporate account of Marine-Corp.

But there are two important points that make it unlikely in the 40k world:

1) Marines don't think like that. They're religiously, subliminally and hypnotically indoctrinated warriors with a system full of a brutal cocktail of genetic engineering and bio-drugs. Such subtle Machiavellianism would be against their nature the same way a Medieval peasant would refuse to pretend to be a priest

2) Zygotes and geneseed. A chapter has only a limited number of Zygotes available for implantation, and even if they have zygotes, a geneseed has to be present for them to work in the recruit's body. In the 40k universe, obtaining or growing new geneseed is near-impossible and Zygotes are little better. Most chapter's Biologis Techmarines probably have to work around the clock to keep up, and even then, Chapters have to extract the geneseed from dying marines wherever they can. Finding the extra raw materials for that many recruits...eh, unlikely.

Cool idea though...maybe getting around those two reasons would be a good reason for a Chapter to go renegade.

-Adso

Well, in respect to point 1) The other guys are right, I should have thought of the Black Templars ....but the Templars seem to have more than 1000 Marines in Marine armour. I'm suggesting a chapter like the Dark Angels or Ultramarines could be doing the same thing, but just equipping them with Scout armour. I wouldn't imagine it would be considered "underhand" or subversive to do this as you have to have recruits ready to fill the spaces left by fallen Marines, for a SCout to be deemed ready to become a full SM he must practically be a SM, just without the armour. Think of it like our Doctors today, when does a student Doctor become a practicing Doctor? In order for him to enter practice he has to have all the skills a doctor needs....so in reality the only thing the student doesn't have is the title....same as Space Marine scouts.

In respect to point 2) we know Space Marine chapters don't just recruit when they need to replace fallen Marines, fluff like in the Space Wolf and Soul Drinkers stories tell us this. Plus a completely theorectical chapter as laid down by the Codex Astartes suggest a chapter should have 1000 Marines plus (+) a company fo Scouts.....so in order to have a chance of adhereing to the Codex there must be some way of generating geneseed aside from that recovered from fallen Marines. In addition to this consider when a Marine is destroyed and beyond recovery....what then, you function with 999 Marines...of course not.

It's stated in some of the background that even Codex chapters step up recruiting during prolonged conflicts. I believe there was an old Epic article (which I don't have yet) which showed the company colors for companies 11-20 (these being "extra" companies added when there was a surplus of marines).

As I understand it, the only reason the Black Templars numbers are so high is because during the second founding, when the legions were split into one thousand man chapters, the Imperial Fists told Old mate Guilliman to stick it. Eventually Rogal Dorn went with it but he allowed his second in command to take a good third of the legion with him on an eternal mission to continue the Emperor's Great Crusade.

Yup. Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread. Yes, Chapters can and do step up recruitment when they need it, but we have ample fluff evidence for chapters being worn down by long years of conflict, implying that even this stepped-up recruitment can't quite keep up, simply because of technological and material limits.

The way a Marine chapter works isn't like a well-oiled machine that keeps it to 1,000 fully-developed, fully-trained Marines at all times. They take in and train scouts at the rate they can, and promote them when they prove themselves in battle. If they start losing Marines at a higher rate than normal, they can't replace them quickly enough, and if they go through a miraculous phase of low losses, they probably go up above 1,000 or so.

But remember: in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war, and Marines are in the very teeth of that war -- ALL THE TIME. So chances are slim a Chapter could maintain a positive promotion/mortality ration. This is doubly true because there are constraints -- genetic, technological, and psychological -- on how fast one can train a new recruit.

So no one says "Oh, blast, Brother Tiberius just bought it, better promote Acolyte Adrian and recruit one of the young 'uns back on MacCragge," in short.

And as to the Templars -- each Crusade maintains its own shipborne genetics, forges, etc, or requisitions those services. So a Crusade is more like a chapter-unto-itself. And they were only an exception to begin with because the Fists didn't quite entirely obey Calgar doctrines, since they were a) Headstrong and b) Charged with the protection of Earth. So the Fists remained on Earth while most of the rest of the old legion (7 or 8 thousand marines....) became Templars of one stripe or another, or possibly Crimson Fists (though they may be new founding).

-Adso

Ok, kets remember we're talking "fluff" here...so there are no definates! To a degree I agree with the above statement....however, you're forgetting the times ( as mentioned in the fluff ) where Chapters have become so badly depleted that they have had to retire from active duty until such time that they can fight again!

I think its fair to say tha t certain Chapters "chose" their fights very carefully....the Dark Angels for example and the Grey Knights, perhaps even more so the Grey Knights!! Both have a very definate directive, whether endorsed by Terra or not. I can imagine the DA having a very strong scout force....whether those scouts are up to Marine standard is another thing, but with every scout containing the potential to become a Marine, surely its only a case of "how many suits of armour do you have to spare"...

The armor isn't the main element here -- Inquisitors, Sisters of Battle, and Tech Guard all have power armor. What makes a Marine a Marine is the dark and mysterious process of genetic modification, massive reconstructive surgery, and intensive years of psycho-conditioning. It's probably simpler for the Tech Priests to patch a bolter hole than create a new Marine -- hence why Chapters can be so badly depleted.

And I love the idea that Chapters choose their fights -- but they need to balance it, no doubt. If the Dark Angels just sort of shrugged off requests for aid that didn't bring them Unforgiven, the Inquisition and the High Lords might get a little annoyed -- and no Marine chapter wants to be crushed like the Astral Claws/Tyrant of Badab for rebellion.

-Adso

I have long believed that Astartes Chapters are limited to 1000 Marines in name only. I think that most Legions paid lip service to the Codex restrictions, but kept their strength anyway. This would especially make sense for the Dark Angels who have a secret mission. I think that most Chapters duplicate their Battle Companies. This also gives a fluff reason for why there are so many players that play "3rd Company" Dark Angels. I play 4th myself. For the Dark Angels this would also explain the relative scarcity of successor Chapters. This is borne out by the fact that the Ultramarines, the one Chapter that would follow the Codex strictly, has the most Successors.

I agree with the idea that the 1000 man limit is only strictly followed by orthodox codex chapters. The templars are the prime example of not following that limit. In the Space Wolf codex it makes a similar statement about each great company being its own self sufficient force. And SW don't have any successors either.

The Space Wolves have the Wolf Brothers as a successor chapter!

Not to go off topic but I if I'm not mistaken Zygotes are used for making Polymers which would explain why the Space Marines are so durable/tough mabye, but I may be wrong

While it is admittedly quite difficult as well as time-& Labor-intensive to create a space marine, the process could be tweaked to "farm" an uncomfortable number of marines (or marines in scout armor).

Recall from the Index Astartes books, as well as the space marine codex fluff, that the marine creates two sets of gene-seed to be harvested. One is harvested immediately upon completion of the transformation process from human to marine... the other happens later, often as a result of massive trauma to critical systems (i.e. gunshot wounds). However, I believe the second gene-seed may be removed later anyway without detriment to the marine.

Either way, the growth of space marines ideally follows a linear progression. Each marine should be able to produce 2 successors. Of course, failures in the transformation process, and battlefield losses cut down this number... but it can still be done, albeit slowly.

Cheers!

Accelerated replacement can be done.

The results just aren't pretty.

Look at the Raven Guard and cursed founding.

And yes, they can remove geneseeds at any time. You just get better marines by waiting as long as possible due to the "genetic memory" aspect of geneseed.

Well, in the begining of this, I read something about ultramarines doing the scout multiply thing, but there's a major issue...

The Ultramarines obsesse over the Codex Astartes. I mean, Their Primarch DID set down the guidelines for it, lol.
Oh, I allso wanted to ask- Can't Chapters like the Black templars just spread themselves out? That might be a major point of it, and if Helbreght has no bloody clue where ab unch of the splinter crusades are, he can't say that they are "over the top" with marines. He can't clearly define it, so he just shrugs when the inquisitor asks him and says," Uh, sure, whatever you say... I'm following the rules..."

SHOOT!.. the Dark Angels have over 1000 marines.. in the codex it shows the chapter lay out..

OK take away companies 1-9.. thats 900 regular foot slogin bolter packing, jumpack wearing, rhino riding and any other verb ya wana stick in..marines. the scout company entry (10th company) says no official size limit!.. also you have the armory. Drivers, gunners and techmarines.. all marines.. then you have the inner circle 1 master from each company and the command sqaud for each company.. thats anothe 60 marines there at least... as it stands right now the da chapter is closer to 1200 marines + scouts/recruits!...

Edit crap im wrong.. More like 1400!... each company has its own transport (rhinos and such)

BTW, most vehicle drivers are taken from the reserve companies, but anyway....

Given that the failure rate is higher than the rate of geneseed recoverable from Marines, it is my believe that Gene-seed is grown artificially, but it is a slow process, or prone to corrupt, so they make up for it with gene-seed recovery. At the same time, I think that many Chapters consider the Codex standard to be an ideal situation. In war, I bet that the reserve companies flood themselves with promotions from the scout company, and if casualties are light they grow larger than normal. I also like the duplication of Battle Company thing, though I think duplicating Reserve companies would be easier as no records would really exist about their captain or fighting style. Having those companies go into battle in "Battle Company" colours seems reasonable.

Meh, none of this is an issue to my Kriegmarines! 14 battle companies, and the chapter fights as a coherent unit. Codex Marines are for followers.

on an earlier point about scouts being marines in scout armour....

does not some (or much) of a SM strength come from the power armour? They are strong by human standards but I'm pretty sure that the armour gives an aditional boost so they can weild those heavy bolters (in weight, not heavy bolters as in the weapon that would otherwise be difficult?

This would mean then that scouts, although are genetically marines, are missing the armour which is effectivly just as important as the seed.

Covenant that is so true I mean there basically without power armour just a bunch of orks that shoot well statwise

so again good job to you

I had always thought with the Dark Angels being so mobile that would often have high levels of reserves held on the rock or in training fleets. Since they have no fixed home world that regular reinforcements might be a little more difficult. In the same vein as most other fleet based chapters they would find a world then grab all the recruits that made the grade and if they ended up with too many space marines then they could always farm them out to successor chapters. Since they would be so ilsolated from the imperium they could even make thier own training chapters to hold reserves till they were needed by the formal chapters.

Power armour only boosts what already there! So the Marine would have to be pretty strong to get the (fluff wise) power output from the suit. If a "normal" human were to wear the same suit, the power output would probably boost the human to "normal" Marine strength.....

In regards to increasing the speed of genetic modification, the last time anyone tried it (Raven Guard) they just about killed the entire chapter and Corax went insane. That's also the reason for why Raven Guard is so good at everything sneaky- there's just not enough to smash against the foe!

And also something to consider, each geneseed can produce several zygotes.

Delephont needs to be executed for heresy.

Well if I remeber my Codex Fluff correctly, it is the black carapace implant that lets a space marine actually use his power armour to its full potential, whitout it its simply a glorified Carapce armour....

As for the Black Templars, read somewhere on the GW site that their strength is rumored to be similar to a Legion of old...

The only problem Ive got with Chapter strength really is as follows:

Doesn't the Codex astartes somewhere state that "Chapters should be broken down into 10 companies each of 100 space marines" so if for a minute we ignore all the high ranking staff marines adn command squads that aren't actually part of a company, wouldn't each chapter only have 900 marines-seeing as scouts aren't actually space marines? So in that respect GW have made a glaring error with the structure chart of SM chapters

yah, but you are forgetting all of the captains, officers, techmarines, librarians, and sub chaplains, that the chapter has as well. And they could easily make up for the lost 100 marines which would make do for the fact that the 10th company is the scout one.

Dont forget the Blood Angels, they actually have around 3000 men. 1000 normal marines but they dont include the vast amounts of 'Black rage' marines in the tower of Baal doing 'peaceful meditation' whcih means they are screaming about killing people and ripping of thier heads.