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When I rummaged through my storage room, trying to find some old 40k odds and ends from 'the good old days,' I came across the 'Eisenhorn' triology. Apart from being an incredibly entertaining piece of fiction (not to mention a great source of inspiration for the 'Dark Heresy' 40kRPG to be released in February), it had a few scenes that got me thinking. One is quite early in 'Xenos', with the Arbites (Godwyn Fischig) drives Eisenhorn around in a Speeder (which I presume refers to a Land speeder, or at least something similar), and later on, during the meeting out in the vast agricultural fields (can't remember which book this is in, probably 'Hereticus') at the Alpha psyker auction, where one of the bad guys makes his escape in a Land speeder. See where I'm going with this?

(http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/127079.page#127712 - this seems to be an old thread that discusses something similar, by the way)

So I was thinking, would it be possible to justify including the Land speeder in the Imperial Guard arsenal?

- Pro: fluffwise it's doable, there's proof of civilians having access to these vehicles. And the military doesn't?
- Pro/con: It fills a niche in which IG is lacking, a fast objective grabber. There's the Salamander, but it has it's good and bad sides (another discussion entirely)
- Con: In the thread I linked above, there's a mention of this 'lack' in the IG list being intentional with regards to balance

Modeling: This should be a simple, straight forward conversion. Get yourself a Land speeder kit, and replace le Marines with Guardsmen (Sentinel pilots, 'Classic' heavy weapon gunners etc)

Assuming one could include such a vehicle, how might it function, rulewise? Below I've included a version, made with the 'vehicle design rules*'

(*Not having the rules from WD/Pdf at hand, I resorted to this webpage: http://www.ageofstrife.com/tools/vdr/ . Please let me know if these rules differ from the original ones)


Imperial Guard Land speeder (a better name would obviously be needed)

Points: 95 Front: 10 Side: 10 Rear: 10 WS: n/a BS: 3 S: n/a I: n/a A: n/a

Type: Fast, skimmer, open-topped*
Crew: Two guardsmen
Weaponry: Heavy bolter

Upgrades: Along the lines of the SM speeders

*The speeder models (except the Tempest?) are seemingly open-topped. If I remember correctly, SM speeders don't count as this due to the crew power armour. Poor guardsmen don't have that advantage

The points cost is about twice that of a SM speeder, with worse BS and being open-topped. At 95 points, it's only a few points short of the IA Salamander, which has better armour and standard armament (Heavy bolter vs Autocannon&Heavy bolter), but larger size (Chimera vs Speeder size). Speeder has the advantage of being a skimmer, but both vehicles are fast.

Know this, would anyone ever make use of an Imperial Land speeder? Could their points cost perhaps be reduced, or is the (relatively) high point cost justified? (As shown by the cost of the Salamander)

I know I'd model one or two for my Desert raiders simply because of the awesomeness that is Speeders, if for nothing else then for the look of them next to my (upcoming) Rough riders and sentinels.

Ideas and comments?

al-Majid Agandhjin bin Ahfal al-Rashid (potentionally the future IG equivalent of 'Master of the Ravenwing w/Land Speeder)

I don't get why it costs so much.

If it was to be used I think it should have some kind of defined role, and not just the "Imperial Guard Pirahna". Maybe an open-topped transport for 5 man squads? So those suicide flamer and demo squads can get into the action.

I like the comparison to civilian vehicles. According to VDR a civilian vehicle say a 40th millienium equivalent car is AV9. Maybe it could be AV 10 9 9 or AV 10 10 9.

As for weaponry, a Heavy Bolter might be a bit much. Maybe a Heavy Stubber or a flamer. They could also have some kind of anti-infiltrate/deep strike or targetting ability.

I'm just saying this is what I would do with it. I like the idea, and if guard need a fast objective grabber there you go. But I would try and avoid being the BS 3 Imperial Guard Land Speeder.

For that one, 95 points is way overpriced. 35 is more reasonable, or maybe 45 to 50 (same as a Space Marine one) if you take into account Imperial Guard premium prices for heavy weapons.

But I like the idea in general. Guard need more diverse units. The civilian angle is a throwback to the Rogue Trader days of gangers etc.

Hrm. I'd say it'd need a different model from the SM speeders, which have always looked rather shoelike to me.
Maybe something along the lines of attack choppers? Same rules as the SM speeders (apart from being IG-ised), but something with tandem cockpits and stub wings would go well.

It'd have to be a Doctrine unit, though. Speeders are expensive and hard to obtain.

Of course, Guard already have an objective-grabber in the form of squads in Valkyries, but those are Forgeworld exclusives.

I like it but, at the same time, I don't.

The speeders you're referring to are, simply, cars that rich people use (in 40K). they aren't military vehicles.

It's ben a while since I read the trilogy but, did the civilian ones actually have guns mounted to them? I thought all the firing that happened used hand held weaponry?

Anyway... One of those speeders would be A10,A9,A9 at best.

I don't think they're really suited to guard/military use (the SM version is not nearly the same).

My suggestion is that (since it really is a cool idea), make your models, but use sentinel rules.
I know that's not exactly the role you want for them... but it would make your life easier... and be playable in ALL games, using "counts as."

Whichever way you go with it, good luck!
Have a blast!
Post some images!

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:
Whichever way you go with it, good luck!
Have a blast!
Post some images!

Agreed.

Lots of good points here, fellows. Appriciate the feedback

Tacobake: The cost was given to me by VDR. Like you, I have no idea why it's so expensive.

As for it having 'civilian armour,' I'm not sure how that would work out. It should be, after all, a military grade vehicle. So I believe it should
be level with the Space Marine one. After all, IG have Techpriest Enginseers. They should be able to keep such a vehicle operational, although
at a cost.

I agree with you as well Skorpion, a doctrine would be required. It is, after all, a sofisticate and expensive vehicle. As for using choppers and so,
well that would work great if you wanted a Chopper, and not a Speeder Skimmer tech is available, why not use it?

MagikalM: The first one mentioned in the triology (with Godwyn Fisching) is an Adeptus Arbites vehicle. That would, in my eyes at least, make it
a modified civilian, if not paramilitary vehicle. Those would probaly work fine as transport in town, but not as good in real military action. Point taken,
they can't be the same.

Using them as proxies for Sentinels is one way to go, agreed. But I don't really feel that justifies the greater speed a speeder would have over a Sentinel.
After all, if sentinels were faster, this topic wouldn't even be here I'll be talking this over with my gaming group in the next few days, and see what we come
up with.

Again, thanks for the feedback

al-Majid Agandhjin bin Ahfal al-Rashid

I meant to style them like choppers, not just straight use the models. I mean, naturally, antigrav is superior to rotary wing aircraft.

Also, Hereticus also has a sequence with big, heavy, millitary speeders with door guns and such. Guard tech for sure.

I've been wondering about a rapid attack buggy of sorts for the Guard for a while. I still like the one I posted back on the old thread that the OP links to:

Jackal Raider Squadron (40pts each)

BS AV F S R
3 10 10 10

Number/Squad: 1-3 Jackals
Crew: 3 Imperial Guardsmen
Type: Open Topped, Small Vehicle

Weapons: Forward-Mounted Heavy Bolter, Pintle Heavy Stubber. All 3 crew have laspistols, which may be fired regardless of anything else (such as fast moving, fired max # of weapons, etc.).

Upgrades: May replace HB with Autocannon for +10 pts or with Multilaser for free. May replace Heavy Stubber with Pintle Grenade Launcher for free.

The following vehicle upgrades are allowed from the Imperial Guard Vehicle Armory: Searchlight, Smoke Launchers, Armored Crew Compartment (Sentinel Cost), HK Missile

Special Rules
Agile: Jackals move as Fast Vehicles, with their maximum move distance equaling 18".

Rugged: May reroll all dangerous terrain tests if moving 12" or less.

Hard to Hit: Counts as a Skimmer for all intents and purposes, with the exception of rolling to hit in close combat (treated as a ground vehicle) and ignoring terrain (must take dangerous terrain checks to move through terrain). Benefits from Skimmers Moving Fast rule.

Fragile: has Vulnerable to Blasts/Templates USR.

* * * * *

Would anyone field these if they were an option?

CK

Put the weapon on a pintle mount and ditch the vulnerable to blasts bit, and yes. Otherwise, they'd bite it straight off.

Maybe have them able to deep-strike like modern special forces?

Open-topped vehicles are already Vulnerable to Blasts.

I put the same specs into the VDR page and got a total of 75 points. On a whim I checked "fully armoured" instead of "open topped" and got the 95 point total. Is that the issue?

I like the idea of Guard speeders. I still have an old jetbike from back in the day. At 75 points I'd give them a try, but wouldn't be surprised if they weren't cost effective. I'd try running them between 50 and 70 to see.


I think the Jackals look cool. I have a couple jeeps that I've been sitting on for the longest time that would fit just fine.

I really like the Jackal idea for jeep-like vehicles. No doubt I would give them a try, once I'd decided what kind of conversion to do

I put the same specs into the VDR page and got a total of 75 points. On a whim I checked "fully armoured" instead of "open topped" and got the 95 point total. Is that the issue?

I wasn't aware I'd made that mistake I stand corrected, VDR puts it at 75 points. But I have to agree with you, it's still quite costy, given the fact that it can easily be shot out of the sky. Might indeed be worth a shot a 50 points though

al-Majid Agandhjin bin Ahfal al-Rashid

Well as it is now, guardsmen lack mobility. Which is why many have started to play the mech guard which I just dont like the idea of although have been toying with recently.

Agandhjin wrote:Imperial Guard Land speeder (a better name would obviously be needed)
Points: 95

Know this, would anyone ever make use of an Imperial Land speeder?

Could their points cost perhaps be reduced, or is the (relatively) high point cost justified?

That depends on what the particular IG army is trying to accomplish.

Considering that it provides Fast Skimmer movement to an army that has neither Fast vehicles, nor Skimmers, much less Fast Skimmers, the high cost is probably fair. Indeed, the case could be made that the standard VDR cost is too low, and should be increased precisely because it is so unlike the rest of the army.

going back a few years one of the golden deamons diorams was of a crashed IG landspeeder by an ork outpost. It was a simple crew swap jobby with a bit of stowage on the old SM speeder - something I'm currently considering. This older model could be passed off as an older or simpler version of a speeder that guard would have acess to rather than the current model. Just update the weapons/crew. I think the high points cost is justifiable. Yes it means that they're ridiculously expensive and most people wouldn't use them, but then it would be a vehicle that is difficult to get hold of and would be used in a very specialised force, which in games terms would also need to be used in as they're not going to win a game for you any way and would probably be that last minute objectore grabber or like was said ealier a transport for duming them suicide squads where they need to be (and then getting blown away!) I bet it's something the Last Chancers would love to use. Before way back there was an IG speeder, sort of like the previous metal model but without the armourd parts, basicaly two seats strapped to an engine.

OT - As for the off road buggy - what about using the sentinal cab and having a sort of 4 wheel arange ment around it sort of like an armoured quad bike?

Considering that it provides Fast Skimmer movement to an army that has neither Fast vehicles, nor Skimmers, much less Fast Skimmers, the high cost is probably fair. Indeed, the case could be made that the standard VDR cost is too low, and should be increased precisely because it is so unlike the rest of the army.

It's also an army that can do suicide drops for free. That's a form of mobility too.

Also, regardless of how lacking the rest of an army is in a particular aspect, that doesn't justify absurd costs for a unit that provides it. Necrons and Sisters are generally lacking good CC, but you don't see Pariahs or Repentia used. An IG Speeder, even if it does fill a niche in the list, needs to be reasonably priced, or it will end up just like these two units (which would be a bit sad for homebrew rules, as it means you're as bad a balancer as GW itself).

Just a thought: not sure if you were aware that back in the RT days Imperial Guard in fact had access to the same Land Speeders as Space Marines used. They could be armed with plasma cannons among other things. Ever since it was "revealed" that the Master of the Ravenwing has access to a jetbike (also a RT Space Marine item), I've been hoping that Imperial Guard Land Speeders will make some sort of return.

There was even a model made:
http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2023smlandspeeders.htm
in the upper right.

So as far as justification goes, that's all I think it really needs. Whether the army actually needs them for balance or something I don't know

That's one one!

Balance wise I'm thinking that the army should fit the background - IG then get acess to landspeeders (although at a higher cost = rarety) As far as the balance of an indivudual army goes that's surely something the player should consider when putting it together. The codexes are written with the force organisation charts to make it easy to create a balanced force but it's also very easy to pick an inbalanced but game legal one - e.g. loads of marines with bolters. these armys may be atractive to players but part of the fun of the games is building an army that's either 'balanced' to take on any opponent (not that realistic) or a more speacialised themed force (commandoes, paras etc) in which case it's fine to take the speeders and it's up to the player to add in supporting units and come up with sound tactics for the force. After all you're the general, if the tactics are poor it's your fault not the troops, their just following orders

If they're rare, this should be reflected by their being 0-1. Points costs reflect power, not rarity, or an Iron Halo for your SM Commander would cost more than a Land Raider!

good point!

Lots of good points have cropped up since I last checked this. Love the comments

As for the high points being justified by the Land speeder being something completly 'new' to the Guard list.
The Salamander is a fast vehicle at roughly the same points cost. Higher armour, but not skimmer. Sadly, you
don't see many people using them.

Oryza Sativa wrote:Just a thought: not sure if you were aware that back in the RT days Imperial Guard in fact
had access to the same Land Speeders as Space Marines used.

Not really a fan of the model, but it would really rock to have something like it reappear. Perhaps from Forgeworld, if
they ever decide to publish an Adeptus Mech-hitech list based of IG doctrines?

al-Majid Agandhjin bin Ahfal al-Rashid

still have my old RT era guard speeder w/ plasma cannon. i still VDR it on occasion in house games. people always seem scared to see guard go fast, but they don't realize that open topped means OUCH! for me. it's usually blown apart or crashed by turn 2-3...but it's always fun to use.

I'm fortunate enough to be the owner of one of the old landspeeders, and I've even gotten to use it in an actual game. IIRC, it was statted out as a 10/10/10 Fast Skimmer with plasma cannon and heavy bolter, i.e. WYSIWYG. Worked out at about 95 points.



As an aside, the model holds the record of most pins in one place. Every single join has one, except the antenna in the rear.

Agandhjin wrote:Tacobake: The cost was given to me by VDR. Like you, I have no idea why it's so expensive.

It's expensive because that's what the VDR does. GW's attempt at balancing them (to stop monster creations) was to make everything more expensive.

For example, if you use the VDR to create an AV11/11/10 closed-topped tank that has a transport capacity of 10, is BS4, and is armed with a Storm Bolter (some of you might recognise this creation as something most people call a 'Rhino'), it comes out to 80 points. A Land Raider turns out to be 316 points. It's an average of 28% more expensive than it should be, so let's say 30%.

This means that, taking the original design, the IG Speeder should cost 59.5 points, so 60 points.

That seems ok for an AV10/10/10 Open-Topped speeder with a Heavy Bolter.

BYE

I apologize up front for doing the whole 'Arise, my champion'-ressurection trick on this thread, but I came across some new information that I thought should be added.

The nice gents over at Bell of Lost Souls recently published a ruleset for armies set in the time of the Macharian Crusade. If you haven't already, check it out at http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2008/07/play-aid-macharian-crusade.html - included in this brilliant piece of work is a IG Land Speeder, called Byzant Janizar Land Speeder.

- It requires the doctrine 'A-grav' (found in the abovementioned publication)
- It's basically a skimming sentinel; base cost 40 points, armaments the same as a sentinel (Heavy flamer, autocannon, multi-laser, lascannon)
Difference is that it is a fast, open-topped skimmer, and have the 'scouts' USR.
- 1-3 of these in a squadron count as an elite choice.

Quite a good take on the subject, I'd say

al-Majid Agandhjin bin Ahfal al-Rashid

If you really want to make it both fun and give it an Imperial Guard feel, add the special rule:

Field Spotter: Upgraded sensor arrays let speeder crews provide quality feedback to artillery batteries behind Imperial lines. If the landspeeder ends its movement phase within 12" of an enemy unit, during the shooting phase, the attacker may reroll the scatter die (and only the scatter die) for any shots against that unit with barrage or indirect fire weapons.

This justifies both the higher points cost and its "use" in an Imperial Guard army. Even if you don't decide to use it, good luck with your new unit!