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I would like to get an idea on what you all have observed concerning this. I have been in the miniatures hobby for about 13 years now, and during that time I have only seen three women who were really playing ( had their own miniatures, codexes, what not) and not tagging along with gamers. Interestingly, two of the three I noticed within the past year.

Is this level of sexual disparity pretty much the same for all of you? When I was roleplaying, probably a full quarter to a third of the players were female. If this is pretty much true across the board, why do you think that is? Assuming this sexual disparity is a bad thing, what would draw more female gamers into the miniatures hobby?

Have you noticed the same disparity in "crossover" hobbies? For instance, I have never met a female model railroader, which I consider to be a hobby having many similarities to miniatures, at least for we who make terrain. I have met very few females who were in to scale models in general. Is there something inherently male in scale models?

The closest hobby to miniatures that I have been told has a high female participation is creating scale model furniture and houses. I actually talked to an older lady the other day about this one, which she actually calls miniatures, but means something very different from what I do. However, we got to talking about painting and modeling techniques, and it turned out there were a lot of shared skills and such we could talk about.

Anyhow, just food for thought. I would like to hear what you all think of it.

Well, there's your first problem: Calling them "female gamers" rather than just "gamers". All things considered TTMG is a pretty feminine activity and the only reason more women don't take it up is because very similar activities are more accessible (don't require venturing into a sweaty funk-filled gaming store, but rather a sweet knitting store) and not so heavily identified with teen-male power fantasies.

Nurglitch wrote:Well, there's your first problem: Calling them "female gamers" rather than just "gamers". All things considered TTMG is a pretty feminine activity and the only reason more women don't take it up is because very similar activities are more accessible (don't require venturing into a sweaty funk-filled gaming store, but rather a sweet knitting store) and not so heavily identified with teen-male power fantasies.

The reason I identified them as female was to distinguish them from male gamers. I think the idea of calling "them" female gamers rather than male gamers, and assuming the default for "gamer" is male, a problem is putting the horse before the cart. I think that is more the fact that such a disparity exists, rather than a cause of said disparity.

That being said, perhaps it is not a bad thing. I don't think it is necessarily bad to have female and male activities. That said, I'd like to see a few more women coming to the tables, if for no other reason than variety. Also, women tend to be more gregarious than men by my observation, and I think that would be nothing but good for the hobby.

Ack! Say gender disparity. Sexual disparity means it has to do with a sex act, and I shudder to contemplate the thought!

My experiences have been similar to yours, Grignard. Seen a few female tabletop gamers, but mostly they've been boardgame players or roleplayers (traditional and LARP, although I don't LARP myself).

Iorek wrote:Ack! Say gender disparity. Sexual disparity means it has to do with a sex act, and I shudder to contemplate the thought!

My experiences have been similar to yours, Grignard. Seen a few female tabletop gamers, but mostly they've been boardgame players or roleplayers (traditional and LARP, although I don't LARP myself).

Suggestion taken.

Usually just wives/GF's. My nine year old really likes my wolfletter conversions- future gamer?

Back in the dinosaur era when I played D&D and Robotech, there were no gals generally either.

Interestingly I see scads more women at the pistol range (about 10%).

Here's an old idea:

We're playing teaparty with dolls.

Gamer talk in quotes. The translation is just beneath.

"What are my soldiers' names?"

What are my dollies' names?

"What will I bring to the next tournament?"

Whom am I bringing to the next teaparty?

"Rifle? Sword? Grenades?"

Dress? Flats? Heels?

"What color scheme do I want my army to be?"

How will I color coordinate my dolls?

"What wargear will I need?"

How will my dolls interact with other people's dolls?

"What tactics will I use?"

What will we discuss at the next teaparty?

"What are the latest releases?"

What are the latest releases?


"I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay."

He puts on a dress, he wears high heels, suspenders and a bra...

jfrazell wrote:

Interestingly I see scads more women at the pistol range (about 10%).

Can't defend yourself with six siders and plastic soldiers.

I know a few girls that game, but generally they seem drawn to the less competitive aspects and games. Things such as optimization don't seem to appeal to them as much as "this is an interesting/fluffy idea".

My guess is that most females are not as interested in direct competition/conflict as males, and as such don't find outlets for such competition as appealing.
That, and for some reason women don't seem to get as obsessive with hobbies as men do, seemly prefering to do a little of everything rather than tattoo the Imperial winged skull on their naughty bits, for example.

Honestly, if I didn't like competing at war games, I wouldn't hang out with most gamers either.

How to fix that? Well, GW would do well to release more female centric armies. I think people want to play armies they can relate to fluffwise, and don't look like bad transvestites.
Now, how to get them into the rules system... that might take a bit, but making a gateway game that was more RP oriented and less cutthroat competition might be a good way of going about it. Something to get them into the fluff and universe but without the competition and focus on stats. Then, when they are in love with their Inquisitor or Eldar Farseers or whatever, they will be interested in seeing what "that other Warhammer game" is all about.

Requiring everyone who comes into a game store to play for more than 10 minutes to take a shower beforehand would be nice too. The fact that "gamer funk" has so much meaning to us is a bad sign.

jfrazell wrote:Usually just wives/GF's. My nine year old really likes my wolfletter conversions- future gamer?

Back in the dinosaur era when I played D&D and Robotech, there were no gals generally either.

Interestingly I see scads more women at the pistol range (about 10%).

I definitely agree there, I have seen many women shooters, more than a few competitive ones. Definitely more than miniatures

Wehrkind wrote:

How to fix that? Well, GW would do well to release more female centric armies. I think people want to play armies they can relate to fluffwise, and don't look like bad transvestites.
Now, how to get them into the rules system... that might take a bit, but making a gateway game that was more RP oriented and less cutthroat competition might be a good way of going about it. Something to get them into the fluff and universe but without the competition and focus on stats. Then, when they are in love with their Inquisitor or Eldar Farseers or whatever, they will be interested in seeing what "that other Warhammer game" is all about.

Girls like orcs and goblins, especially the goofy looking orcs and goblins.

"That's so cute!" they say.

Also, girls like Orlando Bloom. And Viggo Mortensen. And maybe Sean Bean.

So release a 40k army with the fellowship of the Ring with dancing hobbits and
you've got yourself a targeted female audience.

The pistol shooting aspect is an interesting one as well, something I hadn't considered. I know a handful of women who shoot to a greater or lesser extent. All the serious ones are more "masculine" in their interests. As one put it "I own probably 4 times more revolver holsters than shoes. A girl's gotta have the right accessories after all." She is quite competitive, the type you see at every match.
The others are more interested in the practical aspect of "I need to kill someone in a hurry." They don't hang out at matches, and don't go to the range all the time, but they have a gun to carry, and maybe one or two for fun, but they don't shoot much comparitively, and don't care much for competing with others to see who shoots better. One gets the feeling that if they moved to a better town, they wouldn't carry at all, and likely wouldn't shoot unless their guy friends invited them along.

How does this relate to gaming? Well, to be able to compete or really even to play 40k, you need to spend a fair amount of time and money, learning the rules, getting the figs, painting, etc. I can see some of the more competitive women wanting to do this, but most probably don't see the "practical" side. Ask them to compete at cards where they can win money or something, then they might be more interested. In other words, having something nice after they go through the time and effort is probably more important than just "Ok, I win. Let's play again."

My wife seems to meet this archtype almost exactly. She plays World of Warcraft more seriously than I do, but she doesn't like just running around doing quests in PVE. She wants to do PVP, partially because she likes the idea that she is pissing some guy on the other end off. She will work her tail off farming for something she needs though. At the same time, she has no interest in optimization, usually just asking me if I think a particular peice is better than another.

As one of those female gamers, a lot depends on the gaming environment that you are participating at. My gaming groups have a lot a other females. I think a lot of it is that we all migrate a little together since in general female gamers are out numbered from 20:1 to 10:1.

Our LGS is run by a married couple and the wife is the primary sales agent of the store. This helps show that show that females can lead in the hobby. I'm a product demonstrator and tournament organizer for at least two game systems. I believe that my example mentors in a mixed group that encourages other women to play.

Don't be discouraged if your primary group is mostly males, as you game more, you will bump into more of us!

FWIW
dragonlady
(also into shooting sports)

Just to chime in:

My girlfriend during high school played Eldar, but she was much more into the painting and background then the gaming. In fact most of our battles - me playing the Bloody Angels of Blood, no less - were fairly one-sided, with me doing bad bad things to the pointy ears that more or less walked forward and submitted to (angsty) chainswords and (awkward) powerfists ... But admittedly the post-game cuddle session was where the real sport was to be had

Since that time I haven't known too many other lady gamers, though definitely a few (generally extraordinary) femme painters. Games Day Baltimore I will note had many many gals, whether they were winning costume contests, selflessly accompanying man-things to their nerd convention, or like everybody else, checking out Golden Demons (and winning them!), seeing quasi-new stuff, spending cash, gaming, doing hobby things, etc.

And speaking of Dakka, I was wondering the other day just how many women are on the vast and sundry warhammer boards. I know of a few female posters here, but I'm sure there are many more than the smelly menfolk are aware of :S

- Salvage

The reason you don't see many women into tabletop gaming is because girls have cooties and it has been scientilogically proven that cooties contain chemicals that destroy the finish on most models.

"Can't defend yourself with six siders and plastic soldiers."

Funny story, I was a jerk in my youth (some things never change) and inspired a guy to run up and try and bludgeon me with a free weight. He slipped on my character sheet (7th level fighter!) and fell through a glass table, crushing his foot with the weight.

40kenth wins.

Because girls who frequent game shops are googled over by hairy sweaty menses. It has distracted many of my opponents BTW when a female enters the store I just win. I am married so I am immune to thier devilish charms.

here in freiburg we have a 40k/WHFB tournement every half year. back in the old days, when the gaming tables were smaller then they are now but more plenty, we had about 120 players, (back in 2002 we were like the 3rd largest torunement in germany). anyway, back then there we had 2 (TWO) female gamers. one was about 25 and played whith her boyfriend's dark eldar, but she quitted after splitting up with him.

the second female gamer is in her late 30s and plays with her husband on every tournament we have. they play fantasy chaos in all shapes and colors and sometims vampires and dark elves.

Wehrkind wrote:My guess is that most females are not as interested in direct competition/conflict as males, and as such don't find outlets for such competition as appealing.

Not exactly. There are plenty of women with competitive hobbies... anyone who plays sport, for example.

What I've found keeps the girls away from wargaming is simply that women by and large just aren't particularly interested in strategy games. Releasing female-oriented armies won't change that... there are already plenty of women who collect models and paint.

You'll find a slightly larger percentage of females playing relatively more straitforward games like D&D minis, or more boardgame-styled wargames. My partner for example... loves Heroquest, tolerates Star Wars, and has absolutely zero interest in 40K, while loving the models for all three.

That, and for some reason women don't seem to get as obsessive with hobbies as men do,

You've obviously never seen my Mother or Grandmother when they start a new hobby... Women can be every bit as obsessive as men. They just tend to be obsessive about different things.

Not exactly. There are plenty of women with competitive hobbies... anyone who plays sport, for example.

Look at the numbers for girls who engage in sports as opposed to boys. Further, look at the numbers of amatuer sports leagues for men and women. It becomes pretty obvious that there are a lot fewer women interested in them than men. Not that there are no women interested in them of course, but a lot fewer.

You've obviously never seen my Mother or Grandmother when they start a new hobby... Women can be every bit as obsessive as men. They just tend to be obsessive about different things.

I didn't say they CAN'T get as obsessive, just that they don't seem to as much. You don't hear about excessive knitting breaking apart family relationships.

I mean no offense here, but if you are going to talk about the subject, you need to turn off the "all or nothing" switch. It is a question of degrees, not "OMG all womyns hate the 40k becaose thay dun like the menz!" If I say most, I mean "a large part of the total", not all. Saying "Women can be every bit as obsessive as men." isn't useful. Women can play Warhammer 40k too, but seem to much less than men. We are discussing the differences of degrees, not whether or not they can.

My wife seems to meet this archtype almost exactly. She plays World of Warcraft more seriously than I do, but she doesn't like just running around doing quests in PVE. She wants to do PVP, partially because she likes the idea that she is pissing some guy on the other end off. She will work her tail off farming for something she needs though. At the same time, she has no interest in optimization, usually just asking me if I think a particular peice is better than another

My wife is just the opposite. she is addicted to city of hero's being a long time superhero comic collector. she gets into the roleplay and building the characters up in the mission settings. she also plays D&D and 40K but her main limit is her work schedule. since she works retail it tends to leave her litttle time to game on the gaming day (sat) when i am at the game store. i also see 3 armies that seem to draw the female gamer the most.
.nids
,SOB(kind of a given since it is the only all female army)
.orks

Wehrkind wrote:Look at the numbers for girls who engage in sports as opposed to boys. Further, look at the numbers of amatuer sports leagues for men and women. It becomes pretty obvious that there are a lot fewer women interested in them than men. Not that there are no women interested in them of course, but a lot fewer.

No argument there. My point was simply that it's not specifically competition that keeps women away from 40K. It's the nature of the game itself.

You don't hear about excessive knitting breaking apart family relationships.

Actually, that's pretty much the reason my mother left her last husband. He objected to her spending too much time knitting, and not enough time with him, and told her to stop it or leave. So she left. (Seriously. Although I'll admit it's probably not much use as a case study... my family's pretty messed up to begin with.)

On the other hand, I can't recall coming across a single case of wargaming breaking up a relationship... although I have no doubt that it's happened somewhere.

I mean no offense here, but if you are going to talk about the subject, you need to turn off the "all or nothing" switch. It is a question of degrees, not "OMG all womyns hate the 40k becaose thay dun like the menz!"

Er... what?

Again, all I'm saying is that it's not the competition, specifically, that keeps girls away from wargaming. It's simply a general lack of interest in strategy based games.

Where you got the idea that I was suggesting it was anything to do with not liking men, I have absolutely no idea.

Women can play Warhammer 40k too, but seem to much less than men. We are discussing the differences of degrees, not whether or not they can.

Er... ok. Maybe you just missed the middle of my post then, in between the parts you quoted.

insaniak wrote:

Wehrkind wrote:Look at the numbers for girls who engage in sports as opposed to boys. Further, look at the numbers of amatuer sports leagues for men and women. It becomes pretty obvious that there are a lot fewer women interested in them than men. Not that there are no women interested in them of course, but a lot fewer.

No argument there. My point was simply that it's not specifically competition that women dislike. They just tend to be bit more choosy about what that competition involves.

That's pretty much the point. They don't like competition enough to compete over everything like guys are wont to do. They compete in some things, but generally prefer cooperative type games. There are exceptions, but in general they seem to favor games that are not "You vs Me." It might well be that they don't have the attraction to strategy because they like lighter fare, but the question is why do they prefer games that are lighter in rules and time investment?

Actually, that's pretty much the reason my mother left her last husband. He objected to her spending too much time knitting, and not enough time with him, and told her to stop it or leave. So she left.

On the other hand, I can't recall coming across a single case of wargaming breaking up a relationship... although I have no doubt that it's happened somewhere.

You are a lucky man then. Practically everyone I know who is divorced (and there is a frightening amount at the company I work for) it was because the men either worked too much, or spent too much time on their car/boat/whatever, or some combination there of. I never heard of a man leaving his wife because she wasn't spending enough time with him.
Now, this is just anecdotal evidence, and if you find some stats somewhere on divorce reasons, cool. It might also be that women are needier than men, and thus get mad about not getting attention. Or the men getting ignored get a mistress and don't care. Could be a thousand things I suppose, if I ignore most everything I have noticed about men and women.

Again, all I'm saying is that it's not the competition, specifically, that keeps girls away from wargaming. It's simply a general lack of interest in strategy based games.

Where you got the idea that I was suggesting it was anything to do with not liking men, I have absolutely no idea.


Er... ok. Maybe you just missed the middle of my post then, in between the parts you quoted.

The bit about women hating men was hyperbole. Sorry for the confusion.
The question of interests is why. Why do women not seem to like strategy games as much, 40k in particular.Saying women don't like wargames because they don't like strategy games is not an answer, merely a restatement of the question.
It isn't a question of whether some do or not. We know women can play, and can get obsessed with collecting, etc. The question is why do they not like it as much as men. Saying your grandmother gets obsessed with hobbies is of no use, since I stated that some can. However, pointing out what about her personality sets her apart from the majority of women who don't get obsessed, that would be useful.

So Mughi, what differences in personality do you see between your girl and others you have dated that were not so much into gaming that might be sources?

Wehrkind wrote:but the question is why do they prefer games that are lighter in rules and time investment?

Without trying to be insulting to any women reading the boards, I think it largely comes down to the fact that women's and men's brains work differently. Women, from my experience, aren't as good at concentrating on 7 different things at once... They prefer lighter rulesets because it's easier to follow what's going on. As my partner puts it, she wants to just play the game, she doesn't want to have to think about rules.

Saying your grandmother gets obsessed with hobbies is of no use, since I stated that some can. However, pointing out what about her personality sets her apart from the majority of women who don't get obsessed, that would be useful.

Only if you're assuming that enjoying strategy-heavy wargames requires the player to be obsessed with them...

Woah, who put the Imperial Eagle on their naughty bits?

I don't wanna see, just want to verify the event did occur.

lol

I know a guy who knows a guy who got a Khorne tattoo. His army was something like 4 squads of 20 Khorne Berzerkers. Good times.

I've only known one girl who was into Warhammer and I'm pretty sure she was just in it because she wanted to be around boys. "I like orcs," she would say while oogling my large friend and I.

I knew a couple girls who were into magic cards they worked and hung around a comic shop that also sold gaming stuff including Warhammer and d20. As far as psychological assessments are concerned, I think they were just friendly and liked working there .

I've known two groups of Warhammer-ers. Let's call it, "young guys hanging out in the garage" and on the other hand a competive store environment. Neither of which is terribly interesting to women, even if they curious/ attracted on some small level.

In the 20 odd years I have been playing games, I have known three females who game, personally, and several others on other forums.

#1 reason you don't see more females:

jack @ss male gamers who act like they have never before seen a woman.

well, perhaps some of them haven't.......

Was at a WarMachine tourney in Jersey a couple years back, 4 GG's were there (GG = Girl gamer). The antics of most of the MG's ( MG = oh hell, you know) were highly amusing.
Being an old married fart, I was pretty much the only guy there that they could talk to, WITHOUT feeling like they were slabs of beef at a starving wolf convention.

Nurglitch wrote:(don't require venturing into a sweaty funk-filled gaming store, but rather a sweet knitting store)

Nevre in my life have I ever gone into a 'sweaty funk-filled gaming store'. These places mustn't exist in Sydney Australia.

BYE

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