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I have taught a group of three youngsters in my home town how to play 40k. Since they have a VERY limited budget and limited access to hobby stores I have found the occasional e-bay item for them. Other than that I have had them use cardboard cut-outs of troops, army man tanks, and Lego creations for their armies.
Now they are wanting to do "proper" armies. They seem to be content with second edition, one pose marines and Orks. One has shown he is a decent scratch builder of Ork trucks and battle wagons. However, one has a controversial idea.
At the local Wal-Mart they have pre-painted 1/48 scale WWII German Tanks for just a couple bucks. He wants to used them as Predators while scratch building a land Raider and rhinos. His marines and scratch builds will be in the same color scheme as the german tanks. To make matters worse, he is Jewish. Do you think his parents will be at all upset? Or would they not even figure it out if I had him cover up the German crosses?

well, IMO, that's something the boy (or you?) should discuss with named parents, inseatd of keeping it secret. from personal experience I can tell you that the biggest problems in such things, is that people from older generations just can't see our hobbys as we do. it's kinda the same problems with videogames. for my aunt and grandmother, they are all bad, and make people dumd and aggressiv. If said parents are less...well, conservative, maybe, the boy should just show them the game and explain it to his parents what it is about (the game, not the fluff please). compare it to games like risk, or ethen better, chess. it's like a combination of risk and chess, just with a lot more dicerolling.

Yeah, it seems to me that discussing it with the parents is the best thing to do.

No offense to the community, but this is not the place to get advice about this. If your contemplating hiding information from a parent, I don't know that you should be around kids to begin with. Regardless of your intentions in getting involved with them, you've taken on the mantle of role model. Live up to it and show these kids how to deal with any problem.

Err, I would say that the parents should be well educated enough to know it wasn't 'German Tanks' that caused so much grief, but the Nazi's.

I know some pretty awful truths about the world and it's people, and I hide some of that information from children, as they will find out in good time anyway. Does that qualify me as a 'Bad ' person Flagg?

Good onya for getting more players into 40k Cuda.

Interesting topic of discussion though, as long as we follow the forum rules.
Not speaking for the community in general though.

Speak to the parent's, they should be OK (?) I think.

Yeah, talk to the rents. I'm sure they have an idea of what kind of game their offspring is into at the moment (I would). An informed rent is a happy(er) rent. As far as painting over the swastikas and stuff, I dunno. That's more a Jewish thing than a parental thing. Prehaps that should be brought up a a possibility to the parents? They may feel better about their offspring being involved with panzers and tigers if said engines of death are not emblazoned with said insignia. I mean, someone brought up a good point that without the insignia a parent might not be able to tell what army the tank belongs to (after all, one tank in a good camo pattern can look quite a bit like another tank in a good camo pattern; recognition being highly subjective). A swastika or the german style crosses, however, are damn near IMPOSSIBLE not to recognize for what they are. It really depends on what they object to. The cross. The tank. Man, maybe you should have a look around and find another proxy? Bypass that issue all together? Chicken, I know, but I try to be pretty considerate of people's religion. Worth it, to me.

Tell 'em, show 'em, and get their view on the proxies. Ask them about painting over the insignia. In the end, you are trying to be considerate of them, and trying to figure out a way to get this kid into somehting he likes w/o pissing anyone off. Where's the harm?

akira5665 wrote:Err, I would say that the parents should be well educated enough to know it wasn't 'German Tanks' that caused so much grief, but the Nazi's.

I know some pretty awful truths about the world and it's people, and I hide some of that information from children, as they will find out in good time anyway. Does that qualify me as a 'Bad ' person Flagg?

Speak to the parent's, they should be OK (?) I think.

Well, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. You're looking at it from the point of view of not telling KIDS about something. That seems to be a no-brainer to me. IMO, you don't tell kids about something until they're emotianally ready to hear it.

Flagg & I are on a couple of the same foums. We don't always have the same point of view, but I've always found him to be a sensible guy. He's got a good point here. It looks like you're missing it, though (NO offense intended). He's not talking about "protecting" kids. He's talking about deceiving parents. That is ALWAYS a no-no.

I'm going to take a quote from you & change a few of the words to make it more in line with what the OP is saying. THIS IS NOT MEANT to put words in your mouth. Just to give an example that is more in line with what Flagg said.

"I know some pretty awful truths about the minor kids I game with, and I hide some of that information from their parents, as they will find out in good time anyway. Does that qualify me as a 'Bad ' person?"

See, in THAT case, the answer would be yes. THAT is the point Flagg's making.
If, as an adult, you know things about kids that may bother the parents, it's your job -as an adult- to inform those parents on what is going on. To do so, IMO, is to do a great injustice to the parents.

Do you have kids? How would you feel if your kids were doing something that you think COULD be objectionable if done in the wrong manner or context. Would you hope an adult with that knowledge would inform you about it? I know I would.

Cuda1179:
I'm a Christian. Absolutely NO Jewish heritage in my family tree AT ALL. If my kids were gaming with you & wanted to do this, I'd hope you'd tell me... and I'd be ticked at you if you didn't. I'd feel like, "If he's hiding this from me, what else might he hide." This is ESPECIALLY true if I discover that you thought about telling me but decided not to, since I wouldn't know the difference, once the symbols were gone. THAT is deception. I can only imagine how much worse it might be for Jewish parents.

Tell them. Tell them you want to be certain they're okay with it and that you didn't want to risk anything happening that they might find offensive. Stress that you would not allow the models to be used until ALL Nazi symbols were removed entirely & that you would not allow ANY type of humor in relation to that subject, either.

Just my pittance. Take it for what you will.

Eric

Just FYI, NO German Tanks had 'Nazi' sybols.

They had Wehrmacht iconography, and the few Panzer Commanders that did, did not last too long.

MM wrote

I'm going to take a quote from you & change a few of the words to make it more in line with what the OP is saying. THIS IS NOT MEANT to put words in your mouth. Just to give an example that is more in line with what Flagg said.

"I know some pretty awful truths about the minor kids I game with, and I hide some of that information from their parents, as they will find out in good time anyway. Does that qualify me as a 'Bad ' person?"

I cannot see the point in editing my post to qualify the OP, and thus where explaining Flagg was coming from.

It had nothing to do with hiding truths from parents. It was intended to show what I don't/do tell Kids. I would also assume, from the OP, that Cuda actually knows the parents concerned, as he has 'babysitting' rights.

I am a qualified Primary School Teacher(Batchelor of Education) and I sell Computers to Schools all over Australia.

I wrote

Speak to the parent's, they should be OK (?) I think.

Where is the point you are trying to make about me 'hiding' it from the parents?
Flagg wrote

No offense to the community, but this is not the place to get advice about this. If your contemplating hiding information from a parent, I don't know that you should be around kids to begin with. Regardless of your intentions in getting involved with them, you've taken on the mantle of role model. Live up to it and show these kids how to deal with any problem.

I had a few problems about this(Flaggs) post, which is why I responded.

1.Who is he to say what the community wants to discuss? The MODS and Yak do a great Job, and need no help.

2.If anyone tries to infer that anyone should not not be around kids, according to his value judgements, had better be able to back up his 'holier than thou' assertions.

3. Nobody has thought to thank Cuda for going out on a limb in the first place, just questioned his ethics/motives(?). He was trying to SAVE SOME POOR KIDS MONEY WHO WANTED TO GET INTO 40K. Which imo, is better than a lot of the behaviour I have seen on the streets, or by his detractors.

I grew up in Australia as a 'German Kid'(aka'Nazi' in layman/idiotic terms). The sort of imbecile who equates the German Wehrmacht with 'Nazis' has NO idea what he is talking about.

Get it right if there is going to be talk about historical 'facts', that have influence on todays world, or predjudice and ignorance rule.

Sorry bro, but this is what you sound like:

What an effort! If only it had anything to do with anything, I would agree.

Good work. You managed to turn a fairly intelligent ethos debate into finger paintings. If only the second and third frames had any meaning, it may have had a point.

Exalt!

akira: I'll take your word for it on the iconography. However, I believe that some of the Wehrmacht insignia could about as offensive as Nazi insignia. After all, it really depends on the parents and what THEY consider to be offensive. No one here can really make that call for them, not even close. I bow to your greater icon-knowledge. I would suggest, however, that not everyones knowledge is as great. I respectfully submit (in view of your post concerning the "idiots" you grew up with) that people can be intelligent and educated without knowing the ins and outs of these icons. I think we agree that the parents should be consulted. I do respect your position, as I do have a relative who spent time in Russian concentration camps, albeit I myself am about as German as a plate of burritos. He was infantry, but a draftee; not political.

Thank you for the great post grizgin, you are a scholar and a gentleman.

Sorry to all if any of my previous posts were sounding a little 'ranty'. I guess it's because I was predjudiced from my own personal history.

Apologise un-reservedly for what may have been inferred as political justification.

I still think stonefoxe's reply was OTT. At NO stage would I support the craptascular ideology that was behind THAT political party.

Been a while since I've been accused of either of those, akira, but thanks for the complements and you're welcome for the post. This thread (or any other here, really) just DIDN'T need to head some of the places it could have been going.

As far as stonefox, I can't really say if his post was OTT as I have no idea WHERE that was gonna end up! No offense stonefox, but it's been a while since I've seen someone put that much effort into crafting an acerbic, genocide-based reply and end up tripping over their own Johnson SO thoroughly. I'm siggin you, home boy. You just got owned by your own screw-up.

interesting: cuda didn't aswer for some time? think stonefox scared him away?

I live in a city which was bombed to pieces during WW2, my grandmother lived trough it, which is why, my family is rather picky about such a topic. my parents also weren't much amused when I told them about the AE WW2 game from darkson designs, which interested me since I'm a fan of WW2 Pulp stuff. and my grandmother would kill me, if she found out.

that said, I really don't know how jewisch parents would react to that, but I think it's really important to explain them that it is only used as a proxy. but the kids should stil make sure that their "rents" (nice shortcut griz) don't learn too much about the background, 'cause, lets face it, the Imperial ideology is rather....political incorrect.

akira5665 wrote:What an effort! If only it had anything to do with anything, I would agree.

Good work. You managed to turn a fairly intelligent ethos debate into finger paintings. If only the second and third frames had any meaning, it may have had a point.

Exalt!

The second and third panels were showing the stunned silence that such an act would elicit from someone who was offended. Stonefox's little comic is actually a very thought provoking piece in the context of the thread.

The OP needs to talk to the parents to find out what their take would be, and a suggested offer to the parents would be to paint over any offending iconography and pointing out that the tank is a stand in for a game that does not involve WWII. Based on personal experience I don't think that the parents will be opposed if the Nazi type stuff is removed and it's just treated as a tank.

snooggums wrote:
The second and third panels were showing the stunned silence that such an act would elicit from someone who was offended. Stonefox's little comic is actually a very thought provoking piece in the context of the thread.

The OP needs to talk to the parents to find out what their take would be, and a suggested offer to the parents would be to paint over any offending iconography and pointing out that the tank is a stand in for a game that does not involve WWII. Based on personal experience I don't think that the parents will be opposed if the Nazi type stuff is removed and it's just treated as a tank.

The comic really was sort of out of context. While it played up the thought of jewish players being offended by people playing a 'nazi' army, that's not really the case here. In this case it's a Jewish player wanting to play german tanks as 40k proxies.

What people forget is that Nazi's were a political group, not a military group. There wouldn't be any Nazi swastikas on the tanks. These tanks, as Cuda mentioned in his original post, have the Iron Cross, which the German army still fights under to this day.

I think the consensus is that the parents should be aware of the game, the tanks, and what their child is planning for his army. Personally I think it's something the kid should talk about with his parents himself.

I belive you should just tell the parents, they might not entirly agree but they have respect for you if you do and you then may be able to work out something with the kids - some kind of comprimise that is the best for all involed.

I know for a fact that if someone came to me saying they did not realise it might be offensive and know they do they want to try to change that i would lisen and work out a comprimise with them - and i'm sure the same is true here. I find that if your honist and reasonable with people the same treatment you will then recive, so in your posistion i would just try to have a reasonable conversation with them, and as long as their reasonable peopel ( i'm not saying their not i'm just saying you might catch them at a bad time) theirs no reason they wont lisen to you.

So in conclusion you should just be quite open and honist with them, tell tehm whats happen and that you dint realise soem of the implications untill it was already to late - and isn't ti stated in the bible to forgive other least you not be forgiven thy self ( something like that any way) so i do belive that if they trully do belive and live by it then they should respect you for what you are doing so that if soemthing like this happens to thm they may be respected.

Just one opinion of many

Tharamantahr

I'm going to take down the sig, but only out of concern about hatemongering. I think the comic doesn't follow the thread at all (except for some of the basic elements: religion, presence of an icon, and a model of some heavy metal). As the Brits say, stonefox has lost the plot.

So what happened, cuda? You talk to this kids progenitors, or at least get him to do it?

rents: check out "The Adventures of Barry Weem". You'll piss yourself laughing. I promise. Gives you that warm feeling outside.

Well, I did talk with the parents. As it turns out they aren't even Jewish. With a name like Epstien I just assumed. Anyway, they did believe that the German Icons should be covered up, or their son should use tanks from another nation. He did like the T-34's.

cuda1179 wrote:Well, I did talk with the parents. As it turns out they aren't even Jewish. With a name like Epstien I just assumed.

Anyway, they did believe that the German Icons should be covered up, or their son should use tanks from another nation. He did like the T-34's./quote]

I think you would have the same response regardless of religion, but talking to the parents was the right thing to do. I take it you will be covering the markings then?

@ Akira...

I have to admit to being a (LITTLE) bit insulted at first, as you took my comments to a place they were not intended to go. I'm chalking it up to simple mistake, however, so no harm, no foul. No grudge. The same holds for you, I hope.
That's why I'm responding. Just so we're on the same page.

Just FYI, NO German Tanks had 'Nazi' sybols.

Not everyone is aware of that.
When you say "WWII German Tanks," most people will presume you're referring to Nazi tanks. I know I did.
I am not a history "buff" and paid only as much attention in history class as was required to pass (usually... okay, OCCASIONALLY). I know precious little about the division of military strength in Nazi Germany/Germany in WWII.

MM wrote

I'm going to take a quote from you & change a few of the words to make it more in line with what the OP is saying. THIS IS NOT MEANT to put words in your mouth. Just to give an example that is more in line with what Flagg said.

"I know some pretty awful truths about the minor kids I game with, and I hide some of that information from their parents, as they will find out in good time anyway. Does that qualify me as a 'Bad ' person?"

I cannot see the point in editing my post to qualify the OP, and thus where explaining Flagg was coming from.

It had nothing to do with hiding truths from parents. It was intended to show what I don't/do tell Kids. I would also assume, from the OP, that Cuda actually knows the parents concerned, as he has 'babysitting' rights.

My point was that the OP was asking if he should, essentially, withhold info from the parents. Your post was talking about withholding info from KIDS... There's a large difference there. I was merely pointing out that what you said about hiding info from kids had no bearing, as the OP was talking about hiding info from parents (ALWAYS a no-no). Changing your question was merely to further demonstrate that... a point I made certain to emphasize by including the text in red, above.

Plus, IMO, if the guy is thinking about not telling the parents something that they might be bothered by (in reference to their kids), Flagg is not out of hand in wondering about the propriety of having this guy in a position of influence over kids. IMO, it never should have been something he even contemplated.

Where is the point you are trying to make about me 'hiding' it from the parents?

Wasn't.
Was talking about the OP hiding it from the parents. Sorry if I worded it in a way to make you think I was referring to you, personally.

2.If anyone tries to infer that anyone should not not be around kids, according to his value judgements, had better be able to back up his 'holier than thou' assertions.

I think his (Flagg's) point is backed up, rather emphatically, by the quote in red, below:

However, one has a controversial idea.
At the local Wal-Mart they have pre-painted 1/48 scale WWII German Tanks for just a couple bucks. He wants to used them as Predators while scratch building a land Raider and rhinos. His marines and scratch builds will be in the same color scheme as the german tanks. To make matters worse, he is Jewish. Do you think his parents will be at all upset? Or would they not even figure it out if I had him cover up the German crosses?

"Would they not even figure it out if..." is the key point of that. he's asking if he should:
A) Talk to the parents up front
or
B) Have the kid do it & hide it from the parents in hopes that they don't even notice.

IMO (that's the important part; IMO), Flagg's comment about this not being the right place is dead on. I won't speak for anyone else, but I'm SERIOUSLY uncomfortable about someone asking me if he should tell the parents of a kid entrusted to his care a piece of info or, essentially, hide it from them and deceive them (which is exactly what that would be).

Anyway, I hope this sheds some light onto what I was thinking & trying to say.

Eric

Thanks Eric, message recieved loud and clear.

No, never insulted by you, and I hope I didn't come off as offensive, so sorry emphatically if I did.

It's all good mate, it also makes me feel happy that there are some 40k players out there with great ethics/standards.

All the best, and thanks for the interesting dialog.

Thanks MM. You were spot on. Thanks for "getting" it and going with it.

cuda1179 wrote:Well, I did talk with the parents. As it turns out they aren't even Jewish. With a name like Epstien I just assumed. Anyway, they did believe that the German Icons should be covered up, or their son should use tanks from another nation. He did like the T-34's.

As an aside, I find it rather humorous that, in an effort to avoid even a hint of offense, military vehicles related to a bloodthirsty 20th century tyranny will be swapped for... military vehicles related to a different bloodthirsty 20th century tyranny.

I'd like to take credit for that genius comic, but it's from one of the other guys at Grim Dorkness.

It was also in reply to this:

I would say that the parents should be well educated enough to know it wasn't 'German Tanks' that caused so much grief, but the Nazi's.

Buzzsaw wrote:
As an aside, I find it rather humorous that, in an effort to avoid even a hint of offense, military vehicles related to a bloodthirsty 20th century tyranny will be swapped for... military vehicles related to a different bloodthirsty 20th century tyranny.

+1.

People tend to forget the absolute brutality of Joseph Stalin ^_^. I guess that's what happens when they're on "your side" during a war...

From what I understand, ol Joey beat Adolph in the "political casualties" department by millions. However, no one really knows for certain what Stalin "scored" since there was a lot more sweeping under the rug and just plain old disappearances than meticulously recorded annihilations.

As far as trading one tyranny for another, that quality alone makes them appropriate, in a rather sick fashion I guess, for proxy in Imperial forces. However, I think the concern about the German tanks as opposed to Russian in this case (of assumption, asit turned out) was a bit more understandable than the other way round.

As an aside, Cuda, got any pics of the scratch built ork stuff? I'd love to see it.

akira5665 wrote:Just FYI, NO German Tanks had 'Nazi' sybols.

They had Wehrmacht iconography, and the few Panzer Commanders that did, did not last too long.

This doesn't seem likely as Nazi iconography was used for aircraft recognition markings is on various medals and uniforms, it forms part of the Africa Korps logo is painted upon the tail fins of aircraft and so on. And then there's the Waffen SS.

OT: If the OP feels there could be some conflict of interests with the parents he should speak to them.

George Spiggott-

This doesn't seem likely as Nazi iconography was used for aircraft recognition markings is on various medals and uniforms, it forms part of the Africa Korps logo is painted upon the tail fins of aircraft and so on. And then there's the Waffen SS.

No, iconography on the Luftwaffe was a totally seperate issue, as it was Goering who was the over-all commander of that branch of the Armed forces,(and he was a Lunatic Nazi!) so doesn't apply to the discussion.

Rommel who commanded the Africa corps, before being re-directed by Berlin HQ to leave, insisted that the Nazi's had nothing to do with the Wehrmacht Armoured divisions.

There were elements in every Panzer division that were SS, but as I said, they did not last too long. The SS marginalised Tank Commanders ended up being grouped into the one division, which was later wiped out after the Battle of Kiev. Thankfully.

I think we have well and truly moved past this, I 'aint no Nazi, but I love the country of my father's birth. I just like to see everybody see the facts before the fiction/bias.

And yes, Stalin is believed to have killed over 34 million of his own country-men before he toddled off-Now thats a Lunatic!