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What do you think will be the future of the Grey Knights? (besides being part of the rumored Inquisition Codex) Will GW lower their pts cost so that an all Grey Knights list is easier to field? Or will their rules be augmented so they are worth the current pts price? Imagine the shrowding working like veil of tears or the tau stealth field?

They will really hate Bad Space Marines a whole whole lot, more than Blue, Red, Green, yellow, the other Red, Black or White Space Marines. They will also correct the sculpting mistakes made in the line so look forward to a screaming Grey Knight holding up a really big electro glaive so every chapter has one.

And moar skullz!

Seriously, I'd expect pretty big changes for the Grey Knights. Fluff-wise, the GK just a single Chapter, but they cover the entire Imperium. So the idea of any kind of mass / horde GK just doesn't work. Especially in a combined Inquisition Codex in which Inquisition units (e.g. Assassins, Death Cultists & Stormies) share space with Sisters, Inducted Guard, and Allied SM.

The GK Termies are actually fairly costed at 46 pts each (45 pts for Termie w/ NFW +1pt for SB). They just need their NFW to give them an extra attack for a total of 3 attacks per model (NFW is generally comparable to twin LCs).

PA GK could probably stand to get a little cheaper, as they are a little bit overpriced. But if they got to DS via Teleport like the Termies, they'd probably be fine.

they could stand to get a little cheaper by a few points. While well armed and fearless, they have poor mobility.

GK biggest problem as a playable army is a general lack of anti-tank weaponry. It would be a different story if every five guys could take some kind of magic lascannon. Even sisters get meltaguns everywhere.

I also think they are not a beginner's army, and they get a bad rep from that. "Too hard."

They should start at A2 and go from there (so Justicar/Termies are A3, Captain/Master A4).

And let Terminators use True Grit. And make the Psycannon Heavy 4. And make Shrouding affect GK Dreads.

Problem solved.

BYE

GK termies are not fairly costed.

Even 30 point terminators are highly questionable in today's warhammer universe.

*shrug*

T4(5) W2 fixes all Terminators and makes them worth 45 points (50 in the case of GK Terminators).

BYE

that goes a long way to protecting them against rapid-fire small arms, which is their biggest weakness.

Agreed!

I'd like to see something along those lines, something that makes Terminators (Loyalist anyway) worth fielding.

We've been using Terminators that way for years now. The other major differences are that Storm Bolters are Assault 2/Twin-Linked, and Cyclones are Heavy 2.

You can't kill 'em with small arms, and things that would cut through them before (like Banshees) have major issues even wounding them. Sure, you're average 6-man unit with 2 Assault Cannons is 300 points, but they're worth 300 points.

BYE

Grey Knight Termies don't get True Grit? I thought that all GK's got True Grit with bolters/storm bolters...

Wehrkind wrote:Grey Knight Termies don't get True Grit? I thought that all GK's got True Grit with bolters/storm bolters...

Nope...currently only Power Armored GK benefit from the True Grit USR.

yeah they are on the pricey side. STill they are the best infantry in the game.

Preferably something that doesn't take all these nice new guys I'm converting up all special and make em wrong somehow.

H.B.M.C. wrote:We've been using Terminators that way for years now. The other major differences are that Storm Bolters are Assault 2/Twin-Linked, and Cyclones are Heavy 2.

You can't kill 'em with small arms, and things that would cut through them before (like Banshees) have major issues even wounding them. Sure, you're average 6-man unit with 2 Assault Cannons is 300 points, but they're worth 300 points.

BYE

Nurgle Terminators would be at T4(6) right? Wouldn't they be almost impossible to kill? I really like your ideas as terminators are supposed to be the most dreaded unit you could ever place on the board.

T4(6) yes, and our 1KSons Terminators have 3 wounds (as we use the old style system of Chaos, y'know, the one where they were more interesting and less Loyalist w/Spikes).

They're VERY tough... but expensive.

They become a significant part of your battle-plan, and your opponent has to divert significant resources to eliminate them, which is how it should be.

BYE

If fixes of the past (DE especially) are any indication, a cost adjustment for the PA marines and addition of True Grit to the Termis seem most likely. More elaborate changes (llike systematic adjustment of the value/cost for termies) seem unlikely. Adjustment of all Grey Knights to A2 (giving them all terminator honors, essentially) seems somewhere in the middle of these- less likely because of the significant system impact, but a smooth, one-fell-swoop solution to the undercosting problem.

If any of these things happen and termies catch a nerf in the main SM codex (like less assault cannons), then I don't see why anyone would use regular Termis ever again. Counts-as FTW!

All I want for Grey Knights is Frag Grenades, give us a painfully obvious slant towards close combat, then don't give us frag grenades. That was just mean.

Feor wrote:All I want for Grey Knights is Frag Grenades, give us a painfully obvious slant towards close combat, then don't give us frag grenades. That was just mean.

That would be a start in my opinion, but also consider:

- A 2 wound HQ choice
- Iron Halo
- Adamantine Mantle
- Possible move or duplication of Dreads as an Elite choice
- Let GK Dreads also be Venerable
- Another Fast Attack option (would be nice)
- Another Anti-tank / ranged anti-tanki option (would be nice)
- Fix Shrouding
- Balance them against CSM, Daemons, or both (preferred enemy?)

Outside of those changes and up a level to Ordo Malleus / Daemon Hunters in general:

- Make Inquisitorial Storm-Troopers like the IG (Infiltrate, Drop, etc.) or make them a useable unique entry
- Make Inquisitorial Fist squads as troops (Armored Fists with Hellguns for the Inqusition)
- Remove restrictions of 0-1 on Sentinel fast attack entries if 2 IST troop choices are fielded
- Add in Radical options for Fast Attack and Heavy Support (above the 0-1 Orb Strike)

Give the Radicals some radical choices all around

Give the GK rules, gear, vehicles, or something to make them special and nasty against Daemons, Daemon Princes, Defilers, Unbound Defilers, etc

Radical inquisitors options?! never!
I would love you see the circus crap in all inquisition dexes become useful.

1. Assassins shouldn't take an elite slot.
2. Rhino's would go a long way towards fixing things (In 5th ed at least)
3. throw in some more psychic powers, I thought every member of the grey knight chapter was a psycher
4. Give GK lascannons, or give storm troopers the ability to field heavy weapons.
5. Inquisitors would need alot of fine tuning not to be usless

Grenades (or something that works like them and does other stuff too, like the Harlequin hallucinogen grenades do) would be a nice start. More psychic powers would be a good way to do this. That, or make it part of the Shrouding rule.

I dunno about adding stuff to GKs that makes them more like other Marines. it would be nice to see them functional, but very distinct.

Teleport attack or drop pods for Troops would be a nice mobility option. Even if they don't get these, the Run! rule might make things slightly less difficult. A single turn of running would really change things, especially if they're outranged for that turn anyways.

Giving GK's lascannons seems to promote a more static approach than they were designed for. Maybe more melta options?

And why shouldn't Assasins take an elite slot? They _should_ take a slot, and Elites seems the natural place.

In the Grey Knight Codex I wrote for the Revisited Project, the basic structure was this:

HQ:

GK Hero - Either a Grand Master or Brother Captain. Brother Captain had more wounds than he has in the current DH Codex.

Elites:

GK Terminators - 50 points each, WS5/BS4/S4/T4(5)/W2/I4/A3+1/Ld10/Sv2+|5+(I). Squads are led by a Brother-Sergeant, who can be upgraded to a Brother-Captain.

(The three base attacks is because they have one more than regular GKs, and regular GKs in our rules have 2 Base Attacks. The +1 is for True Grit, which we've allowed models in Termy armour to use)

Purification Squad - 28 Points each + 60 point Sanctifier as a leader. GK stats and weapons.

Basically a 6-man GK Squad, and the Sanctifier has a power called 'Displacement' that allows him and the squad to teleport around the table (4D6", but they must be moved exactly that distance, no more, no less). They have a special weapon called 'Paraclete Charges', that are basically Holy Melta Bombs.

Obsidio-Pattern Dreadnought - WS5/BS4/S6(10)/T8/W3/I4/A3+2/Ld10/Sv3+.

All Walkers in our rules have a statline rather than being vehicles. Furioso Dreads are standard in all our Marine forces both because they're cool and they look awesome. This is the GK Version, the Obsidio pattern. Options include Heavy Flamer, Incinerator and a Paraclete Torch (Holy Melta Gun), as well as replacing one DCCW arm with either a TL-Lascannon or an Assault Cannon.

Troops:

GK Marines - WS5/BS4/S4/T4/W1/I4/A2/Ld8/Sv3+.

Nem Force Weapon, Storm Bolter, Frags, 24 points each. Justicar is 40 points, has A3 base, and Ld9. All Justicars are Psykers and can purchase one psychic power from the armoury.

Same weapon options as now (2 weapons, either Incinerators or Psycannons).

Fast Attack:

Teleport Attack Squad - Same as GK squad, but no access to Psycannons but access to 4 Incinerators. Can always Teleport.

Heavy Support:

GK Land Raider - 200 points.

Land Raiders are the ultimate vehicles in our rules. Our vehicles have movement rates of 8"/16"/24" (24" only for Fast vehicles), and units can get out and assault from any transport but only if it moves 8" or under (including Fast Vehicles). Land Raiders are an exception to this, and they can move a full 16" and troops can still get out and assault.

Additionally, a non-fast vehicle that moves over 8" can only fire defensive weapons. Land Raiders are, again, an exception to this, and may fire all weapons all the time. Finally the Machine Spirit makes them immune to Shaken Stunned.

Yes, this is a lot of stuff for 200 points. But given that Land Raiders virtually never see the light of day in GW's rules, and we all like Land Raiders more than any other vehicle, we thought it would be fun. It hasn't made Land Raiders powerful, it's made them viable.

GK Land Raider Crusader - 225 points, otherwise the same as GW rules. Same benefits as our rules above.

Eminus-Pattern Dreadnought - WS5/BS5(!)/S6/T8/W3/I4/A3/Ld10/Sv3+.

We also like the Mortis-Pattern that FW invented, but think that making it DA only was silly. As such, the Mortis-Pattern shows up in all regular Marine armies, with the GKs getting a slightly different one, the Eminus pattern (which has the customary WS5 of all GK units, but has BS5 as well, making him very scary!!).

He can get all the usual Dread shooty weapons, but no HTH options.

Purgation Squad - Same GK stats, access to 4 guns including a new one called the Redeemer which is basically cross between a Lascannon and a Missile Launcher.


Rules Changes:

* Scourging fires 2D6 shots.

* Psycannons are 36" S6 AP4 Assault 4/Ignores Invul Saves.

*Incinerators (and all Heavy Flamer-like weapons for that matter) have a 12" range and fire like Inferno Cannons.

*GK Dreads benefit from The Shrouding.

*GK's may re-roll the Scatter and distance dice when Deep Striking.

*All units that Deep Strike may assault on the turn they land if they roll a Hit. This affects everyone, not just GKs.

*GKs taken as allies may be rolled for as a single Reserve Roll rather than rolling for each allied GK unit.

And that's it really.

We just had a couple of days of gaming and playtesting, including one Grey Knight player who completely cleaned up. He ripped my Chaos army to bits (but I had nothing that could match his Grand Master + Retinue in assault). He tore into a 200+ model Ork army and reduced them to 3 Zzzap Guns + Crew thanks to the awesome power of Holocaust and the sheer amount of Orks it could kill a turn. He drew against a Dark Angel army, and then came back and beat another Ork list.

At no point did the army feel unbeatable (we were more scared of the 250 model Ork army), and they died in droves in the wrong situation.

BYE

Great stuff with the exert from revisited, I'll have to check that out

I agree with termies and land raiders being underpowerd. They are supposed to be the SM be-all end-all as SM lack a true "super-unit" for normal games (see avatar, greater daemons, nidzilla, squigoth ect...). They defianately need to be beefed up so to be viable (across the SM board)

Not assulting out of transports or DS for any army is kinda lame in my opinion, units dropped behind enemy lines or drove straight up to them would never wait around to figure out what was going on, they would be told all of that beforehand, informed on how they should react in those situations and would come out guns and ccw's blazing/swinging

Hopefully GK will get a few new units, and be able to take allies (inquisition can requisition anything excluding a SM chapter remember, the lack of allies is tarded)

thats my 2 cents as of now i gues

You can ally anything with a GK army that you can ally with an inquisition army. If you want you could have an army of GK, inquisition and sisters if you wanted. I don't see GK getting an update anytime soon honestly. Their best bet is to start fighting the new demon list so they will actually be mildly effective. Though it is a little funny that none of the new demon attacks are psychic and as such the GK psychic defense is worthless, and there is a gift of khorne that gives you a 2+ invulnerable save against force weapons. Sucks to have a nemesis.

Under the new rules, GK will do much better against Khorne than before. Those Hellblades would have eaten GK for lunch.

Dessel Ordo wrote:Great stuff with the exert from revisited, I'll have to check that out

I agree with termies and land raiders being underpowered. They are supposed to be the SM be-all end-all as SM lack a true "super-unit" for normal games (see avatar, greater daemons, nidzilla, squigoth etc...). They definitely need to be beefed up so to be viable (across the SM board)

Umm, Orks don't have the Squigoth in their codex if I remember correctly. Also, where is the Tau, IG, Dark Eldar & Sisters 'Super-unit'? Just because a few armies have some kind of megalithic unit that they can bring to war doesn't mean everyone needs one. (That being said I would love some kind of rolling Cathedral for my sisters, some race of Monstrous creatures for my Tau, some kind of abomination for my DE and my Imps could always use their Baneblade in smaller engagements )

Not assaulting out of transports or DS for any army is kinda lame in my opinion, units dropped behind enemy lines or drove straight up to them would never wait around to figure out what was going on, they would be told all of that beforehand, informed on how they should react in those situations and would come out guns and ccw's blazing/swinging

I never got this one myself, you're being sent via advanced or unorthodox delivery system for the sole purpose of catching the enemy by surprise and what do you do when you get their, stand around making sure you didn't scuff your boots on the way in.

smart_alex wrote:yeah they are on the pricey side. STill they are the best infantry in the game.

Nope. That distinction is held by Plague Marines.