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OK, reading through the SM Codex last night I spotted a rule saying that any HQ may lead a command squad. (Or words to that effect). Which got me thinking....

full 10man command, plus chaplin plus SM Hero, all with CC + pistol with power weapons, termie honours etc whereever possible, plus a crusader to get them to the enemy. Give them furious charge....

I work out that comes in at 50 attacks on the charge, 15 of which can easily be from a power weapon, + plus one S (furious charge?) plus re-rolling failed to hits (Chaplain) and ignoring the first save, and any casulaties within 6 inches of the apothecary don't count to the combat total. That's if I remember right and read it right in my excitment. So here's the dilema.... in a 1500pt army, with the rest taken up by minimum tropps plus anit tank to deal with what the command can't, will they do enough to give a win? I'm not into power gaming but was just curious. In my head I considered this (800pts ish) verses the same in orks (Troops). The shere amount of dice being rolled, even after the charge roll, meant they may have a chance of surviving the storm.

just curious, havn't had chance to roll dice yet to test. What do you think they're chances are and would it make a viable army asuming anti tank can come in some other form, possibly a standard landraider....?

Assuming your landraider gets the payload delivered into combat (and that's a big IF).

The furious charge + chaplain team looks amazing on the charge. But from round 2 of the combat onwards they are extremely over-costed. So you're making a mistake if you get into a protracted combat (or walk into a countercharge).

The squad is also extremely overcosted if they are being shot at. So you're making a mistake if that first round of combat is a massacre and you're left in the open.

In a land of perfect dice where each combat is started by you, and ended on your opponents turn without a countercharge wrecking your 10 very expensive marines, it would be pretty cool. I think that's a little optimistic though.

What I thought. Against eldar, etc it's a bit of a huge risk, against hordes (orks and guard etc) with absolutly loads of weak to average troops seemed like it could work. Personally I wouldn't use it myself due to the high cost. It was an idea that sprang to mind when I spotted the whole combo and wondered just how much a standard marine could be improved by combining him with as many things as possible. On the charge I reckon they could pretty much take anything with toughness 7/8 or less through the shere number of dice being rolled. After that....fate would decide. As you said if they're stuck in the open it's bye bye as eveery enemy gun turns on them.

Using your example of orks: Once you are out fothe big shiney land raider its over for that squad. The orks will send two truck boyz squads at you. unless you can kill24 wounds of ork on a turn you didn't charge you are out of luck. The 10 powerklaw attacks that come back at you will devestate your squad. And thats from two ork squads that are 154 points each. That doesn't even account for a T5 or 6 warboss they might just think about supporting them with as well. This is all assuming you arn't in the open and sucking up every ap3 rokkit the orkses have to throw at you as well.

Overcosted units like this will only work against opponents that you already know their army and know they have nothing to counter it with.

Meph

Good: Nice size squad with some ablative wounds that can be really nasty in CC; guaranteed to hurt anything it gets the charge on.
Bad: One hell of a fire magnet. If the land raider gets killed turn 1 or 2 you might as well throw in the towel.

I know you are considering this combo against orcs but think about other armies you may face.

question: would it be possible to give the command squad accompanying the chappy all jump packs and remove the standard bearer from said squad, it seems logical but the codex lead me in a circle on this one.

statement: your idea doese sound fairly sound against swarms, however, a wwp army, an army with lots of space marine killers, or an army loaded with heavy vehicles and melee specialists would cause MAJOR problems.

question: why did I submit this post as if I where HK-47

Expensive command squads pretty much lost their effectiveness when 3rd edition ended. Without sweeping and rhino assaults, the squad is just too many points to be effective. This what will happen:

1) In order to get from point A to B, you will probably end up taking a Land Raider. This now becomes a huge fire magnet because of the points tied up with it.

2) If you make it to CC, chances are you will wipe out the entire force and thus be left standing in the middle of no-mans land. This means you'll get shot to pieces the following turn.

3) If you make it to CC and don't wipe out the force, you may end up being bogged down for a sizable time frame due to the enemy being a horde army or swamping you with cheap troops over subsiquent turns. With so many points tied up in a meaningless battle, you'll have a hard time gaining back victory points.

4) In small games, more high priced units equates to less troops and troops are 5ths thing.

It might look good on paper but once you test it out your going to see the over all effect.

*nods* Points in one unit baaad. Or ... at least that /many/ points in one unit.

The trouble with it is the one-trick-poniness coupled with the raw cost. Your assumption is that you'll get them into hand-to-hand with something against which all of those power weapon attacks and hoss strength is truly useful. Against another Marine army, that unit's pretty hard.. for a charge.

Against something like Orks, however, where they really don't care if you munch through a unit as long as they get to choose what unit you munch through (or 'nids - same thing!) - you run the risk of being tarpitted while the other half (HALF!) of your army is cut to shreds. Mech Tau and Eldar are just going to wander off and ignore you; dedicated CC squads of that cost with that kind of limited mobility aren't really a threat. Chaos? Chaos and the new, mighty Lash are going to have /fun/ with you.

The point is - it looks good on paper, but one of the great mistakes is to lump tons of points into a seemingly unstoppable unit. It never works against an army that's playing diversity as its calling card.

Put another way - this is 800 points of /squad/... and what's the biggest target you can hit? I think the single most expensive thing I can field as Tau in a single unit (ignoring bodyguard squads) is.. what. 330 points? That means that for your 800 points of close combat, I'm carrying more than enough firepower to defeat it.. and every other army's the same way.

'Earning points back' is a fallacy, depending on your army composition - but your lack of diversity would hurt.

What if the Deceiver ate it?

By the way i'm unsure about something...
Is a 10-man command squad, a chaplain and a master all one HQ choice, if so my enemies will fear.
I have two librarians and two captains (who don't see much action).

Command Squads are always hard pressed to earn back their points in any given game. I field one on occasion, but he is usually supported by a pair of Sword Brethren (Space Marine Veteran Squads). Why take bad units, you might ask? Because in games where I don't have the points for a lot of Terminators, I take a Chaplain + 10 Marines (Champ, Apothecary, 2 Meltaguns) and give them Infiltrate. Stick Infiltrate on the Sword Brethren, and you've got 31 models that set up after your opponent that get a 12" headstart on the rest of your choppy units.

Obviously, I'm talking specifically about Black Templars, but that doesn't change my point. Command Squads are expensive for their base cost. There's no point in dishing out victory points to your opponent by making the unit any juicier. A BT Reclusiarch w/ Bolt Pistol, Frags, and Furious Charge is 100 points. Throw in 10 Initiates with a Vet Sgt (Power Fist, BP), Company Champ (PW, Combat Shield, BP), Apothecary (Narthecium/Reductor, BP, CCW), and 2 Meltaguns (all with Furious Charge) and you've got yourself a 375 point unit that consists of only 11 T4 Sv3+ models. That's before you add in Terminator Honors for the Chaplain and 9 Non-Vet Sgt models.

If you're looking to make your HQ slots powerful standalone units, either take Special Characters or put the commander in Terminator Armor and give them a Terminator Command Squad. You'll at least have some shooty firepower, as well as the option to Deep Strike should it suit your tactical plans for the game.

Bottom line is that Power Armored Command Squads are subpar when it comes to earning their points back. Since rumor has it that you can in fact Run! on the Deep Strike (which might not even scatter for Drop Pods), they may just see quite a bit of action in 5th Edition. Regardless, Command Squads seem to be going the way of the Dark Angels Codex - 5-man units of support models, with unique abilities, not the huge 10-man beat-'em-up units that I continue to stubbornly field.

CK