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The LA Bunker got the new Rulebook today, and I glanced through it for a few minutes. It's really nice. What impresses me most is how the new rulebook is really focused on "the GW Hobby" as a whole.

The Rules section is very well done, with clarifying sections and diagrams for a lot of the problem areas in 4th Edition, such as Independent Characters, determining Hull Down, and so forth. I believe the new Ruleset will have a *lot* fewer rules questions than any previous edition. Some of the stuff is awfully picky, which can only help the Tournament / anal-retentive crowd. For the rest of us, it's nice that TMIR is still called out first and foremost.

The Fluff section is beautiful, with great use of color and multi-page spreads for those armies whose sales merit extra pages. There's a lot to like regardless of which army you play. And that even includes Chaos Daemons.

The Hobby section is a lot larger and more refined than in the current book. No more scattering Hobby stuff all over. It's nice how they show expanding from the starter Orks to a medium-size force, to a full-size force.

The Reference section is great. You can pull stats for practically anything your opponent might field.


Combat Patrol and Kill Team are gone, but that's to be expected with Apocalypse taking over the large games. This leaves a nice hole between the starter set and standard (1500-pt) 40k games that can be filled with a new rules supplement.

I was a little surprised to see that they still have a mini-Campaign and mention of Tournaments at all, but it was interesting that they specifically reference Sporting play in the Rules section. Also, it seems like GW is a lot more organized with how stuff will integrate between the Rulebook and Starter set.


Overall, this feels like 3rd Edition Redux, in terms of how the book is laid out and designed. This is a good thing. I think GW is doing a better job of illustrating how they *want* 40k to be played. To the extent that players can be persuaded to play more of a Sporting and self-restrained game, I think everybody will benefit.

It's good to hear positive things about the new book. I for one am excited about it. I especially like what you are saying about it having better differentiation betwen sections as oppossed to scattering stuff all about.

I hope they get to the combat patrol size supplement soon. I know its not on the schedule but one can hope.
Combat Patrols are really fun when you don't have a lot of time or you are only trying out a few new units/armies.

I like CP too, really quick and good for starters. However it didnt show on the 5ed ,doesnt mean it's illegal, we could still play it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Overall, this feels like 3rd Edition Redux, in terms of how the book is laid out and designed. This is a good thing. I think GW is doing a better job of illustrating how they *want* 40k to be played. To the extent that players can be persuaded to play more of a Sporting and self-restrained game, I think everybody will benefit.

JohnHwangDD, thanks for the mini-review!

Much appreciated...

Now, as long as the codices aren't like 3rd edition, I'll be happy...

At the risk of sounding like a whinging pom, I hate to pay £30 for a thick heavy book that contains a load of hobby stuff I don't need and a load of fluff I'm not interested in.

Why oh why can't GW divide the publications into (A) core rules (B) supplemental rules like Apoc and Cities of Death (C) codexes that include basic fluff (D) fluffy fluff like that book about dissecting aliens (E) hobby guides.

You can wait until the boxset comes out. It is reported to contain a mini rulebook which appears to be all you require. If you don't need the models, sell or trade them off.

Alpharius wrote:JohnHwangDD, thanks for the mini-review!

Much appreciated...

Now, as long as the codices aren't like 3rd edition, I'll be happy...

Um, if you look carefully, the current crop of Codices are a lot more like the original 3rd Edition Codices than anything since. Compare the current CSM book with the first Chaos Codex, and you'll see what I mean.

Actually, when you really get down to it, the current crop of Codices are more like the 40k3 Rulebook lists than anything else...

Kilkrazy wrote:At the risk of sounding like a whinging pom, I hate to pay £30 for a thick heavy book that contains a load of hobby stuff I don't need and a load of fluff I'm not interested in.

Why oh why can't GW divide the publications into (A) core rules (B) supplemental rules like Apoc and Cities of Death (C) codexes that include basic fluff (D) fluffy fluff like that book about dissecting aliens (E) hobby guides.

If you look at the way GW's business works, there is probably very little cost difference between producing a thick heavy book with rules, fluff, and hobby stuff and a slimmer magazine-format rules-only book. Rules don't drive profit for GW, and they are probably sold at very close to cost. In fact, GW probably subsidizes the rulebook, in much the same way that shaving companies give away free razors.

The price differential for GW to pull the Fluff and hobby sections might result in a cost reduction of only $5 USD ($45 USD hardback rules book), and going to softback might save another $5 USD ($40 USD softback rules book). Apoc and CoD are probably at their "fair" standalone prices, because GW doesn't expect them to sell in large volumes, which is why they appear to be expensive for what you get relative to the rulebook. I suspect that hobby guides and Codices are probably subsidized in a similar way as the Rulebook, because they drive model sales to some extent. Fluff books would probably price out similar to the John Blanche / Jes Goodwin / 4 powers art books, which are again very pricey relative to anything else GW sells.

So you'd probably pay 25 GBP for a rules-only rulebook - the extra 5 isn't badly spend for some easy nighttime reading or paint scheme references.

Killkrazy: agree that the gamer in me would love a "just rules" format like the mini rulebooks from BFM. However; the big, fluffy hardback is a really good reference that also helps with visual familiarization, unifying the look of designated armies. People read the book, and recognize what they see on the table top.

Still, I don't like to have" to uy the fluffy bits. But, gak happens.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Alpharius wrote:JohnHwangDD, thanks for the mini-review!

Much appreciated...

Now, as long as the codices aren't like 3rd edition, I'll be happy...

Um, if you look carefully, the current crop of Codices are a lot more like the original 3rd Edition Codices than anything since. Compare the current CSM book with the first Chaos Codex, and you'll see what I mean.

I realize this, which is why I'm hoping the codices released after the official launch of 5th are a lot less like the 3rd edition variety.

And given the rumors about the upcoming SM Codex, I'm thinking GW may have learned something from the cluster that is C : CSM.

Sarigar wrote:You can wait until the boxset comes out. It is reported to contain a mini rulebook which appears to be all you require. If you don't need the models, sell or trade them off.

I can't stand the mini-rulebooks for the same reason that I can't stand Warmachine
stat cards. Tiny text. I KNOW I miss something whenever I have to refer to the
little red book during a game.

So a bigger book minus the hobby stuff and background material would be nice (I mean
this for both Fantasy and 40k).

Yeah, I like the large print edition, too. Plus pretty pictures.

malfred wrote:

Sarigar wrote:You can wait until the boxset comes out. It is reported to contain a mini rulebook which appears to be all you require. If you don't need the models, sell or trade them off.

I can't stand the mini-rulebooks for the same reason that I can't stand Warmachine
stat cards. Tiny text. I KNOW I miss something whenever I have to refer to the
little red book during a game.

So a bigger book minus the hobby stuff and background material would be nice (I mean
this for both Fantasy and 40k).

You need glasses, the tiny text is easier for me to read than the large regular edition was.

I'm still with the rules separate from the fluff stuff in either size though, the mini book and the codexes fit in my carry case, the big rulebook not so much.

Sorry, I just have one question, can Monsterous Creatures run?

Yes.

I was planning on buying the boxed set and just using the mini rule book, but I'm reconsidering. The new BGB is very well done in my opinion.

I'm a sucker. Going to get the Gamers Edition. What the heck, still kicking myself for not getting the Warhammer 7th Ed Gamers Edition though. Anyone have one? Will totally have to get two of the boxed sets and get those small books spiral-bound so they lay flat. Can't wait, much anticipation.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you look at the way GW's business works, there is probably very little cost difference between producing a thick heavy book with rules, fluff, and hobby stuff and a slimmer magazine-format rules-only book. Rules don't drive profit for GW, and they are probably sold at very close to cost. In fact, GW probably subsidizes the rulebook, in much the same way that shaving companies give away free razors.

The price differential for GW to pull the Fluff and hobby sections might result in a cost reduction of only $5 USD ($45 USD hardback rules book), and going to softback might save another $5 USD ($40 USD softback rules book). Apoc and CoD are probably at their "fair" standalone prices, because GW doesn't expect them to sell in large volumes, which is why they appear to be expensive for what you get relative to the rulebook. I suspect that hobby guides and Codices are probably subsidized in a similar way as the Rulebook, because they drive model sales to some extent. Fluff books would probably price out similar to the John Blanche / Jes Goodwin / 4 powers art books, which are again very pricey relative to anything else GW sells.

So you'd probably pay 25 GBP for a rules-only rulebook - the extra 5 isn't badly spend for some easy nighttime reading or paint scheme references.

Ah, the guess of the layman.

You confuse hardcover and paperback GW books as if they were a standard publisher.

They aren't.

GW releases their rulebooks in their current format because it gets them the most money with the least complaints.

Their old rulebooks were not hardcover (or even put together properly) and fell apart. Paying 50$ for crap annoys customers.

The codices are softcover because it gets them the most money with the least complaints.

Don't think for a minute John knows what he's talking about about costs.

But just so you aren't lost, GW makes huge amounts of money on their books.

A 'normal' hardback costs 2 bits, paperback costs 1.

Even adding in glossy paper and color, it comes out to less than 5/2. Sorry to say.

So if GW sells the book to retailers for half the cover price, they make 20$ for the rulebook?

Oh that 'fancy' binder for the 'epic' rulebook costs under a buck. Hey...that book costs 95$...double the profit.

http://web.archive.org/web/20060428103206/http://sfwa.org/bulletin/articles/profit-motive.html

The Black Library doesn't have literary greats such as Gav Thorpe and Andy Hoare writing for it for nothing!

It's like printing money.

Remember, don't say like you know. Actually know.

Le Grognard wrote:I'm a sucker. Going to get the Gamers Edition. What the heck, still kicking myself for not getting the Warhammer 7th Ed Gamers Edition though. Anyone have one? Will totally have to get two of the boxed sets and get those small books spiral-bound so they lay flat. Can't wait, much anticipation.

Costs like 10 bucks at a UPS store.

Don't forget to get the front and back covers laminated. 5$ more.

Priceless.

I'm in total nerd mode getting the collectors edition.

Deadshane=Fanboi....I'm so ashamed.

...but my rules will have a purity seal and yours wont, Nyah nyah!

Deadshane1 wrote:I'm in total nerd mode getting the collectors edition.

Deadshane=Fanboi....I'm so ashamed.

...but my rules will have a purity seal and yours wont, Nyah nyah!

Men's minds are too ready to excuse guilt in themselves.

stupidity needs no excuse.

Stelek wrote:Ah, the guess of the layman.

You confuse hardcover and paperback GW books as if they were a standard publisher.

Don't think for a minute John knows what he's talking about about costs.

But just so you aren't lost, GW makes huge amounts of money on their books.

So if GW sells the book to retailers for half the cover price, they make 20$ for the rulebook?

http://web.archive.org/web/20060428103206/http://sfwa.org/bulletin/articles/profit-motive.html

It's like printing money.

Remember, don't say like you know. Actually know.

I dunno. I do costing for a living...

I'm well aware that GW isn't a standard publisher, thanks for stating the obvious.

And, yeah, I've had to re-glue my 3rd Edition rulebook, just like the rest - it's amazing what decent cement will do...

As if *you* actually know anything? :S

GW has a lot more than just printing costs (including editing, proofing, typesetting) -- there's all that internal playtesting. And bonuses for Tom Kirby!

GW might make some money on books, but whatever it is, it's totally dwarfed by their miniatures profits. Any idiot can see that from even a cursory examination of the GW business model. GW offers the same discount rate on minis and books, but they sell only 1 Rulebook per player, and 1 Codex per army, so that's a whopping $75 retail in books. Any 2 boxed sets and a HQ will generate the more revenue back to GW, and players buy a lot more than the minimum compulsories. But you were saying something?

GW hasn't sold to retailers for 50% in ages. Last time I checked, GW was around 40% off to retail - their retail margins are much less attractive than they used to be.

And given that GW isn't a standard publisher, why bother going into the details of standard publishing? Do you honestly believe that GW treats Rulebooks just like any other standard publishing house would?

And FYI, rulebooks aren't like printing money, because GW only prints one per player. CCGs are like printing money. Actually, CCGs are *better* than printing money, because they inherently encourage *more* purchasing of the product.

Anyhow, I agree GW's costing probably doesn't conform to standard publishing norms. GW is probably far less efficient than any major publishing house. GW probably prices rules and Codices at or near cost, just to get the stuff out there so people buy more minis - that's GW's model. But I do think it would be very amusing to have GW's publishing cost metrics run up against industry standard numbers.

Magazine publishers put out 64pp+ size mags that cost them under £4 to print (Guesstimate.) They get revenue from ad sales however they lose 30-40% of their printing costs because of unsold copies. And they make a profit.

It's hard to believe a 64pp codex costs over double to print.

The problem with guesstimating GW's business practices is the completely different cost structure in terms of overheads of retailers, manufacturing plant and so on.

A middleman is a middleman is a middleman.

GW makes a profit AT the middleman.

Unlike bookstores, which eat the cost of the book (or sell it back to the publisher for a loss) and publishers who eat the cost of unsold books...

GW does not. Once you bought a book as a distributor, GW's made it's money and returning anything to them is like drop kicking a horse...the horse kicks back, and that's that.

Stelek wrote:

Le Grognard wrote:I'm a sucker. Going to get the Gamers Edition. What the heck, still kicking myself for not getting the Warhammer 7th Ed Gamers Edition though. Anyone have one? Will totally have to get two of the boxed sets and get those small books spiral-bound so they lay flat. Can't wait, much anticipation.

Costs like 10 bucks at a UPS store.

Don't forget to get the front and back covers laminated. 5$ more.

Priceless.

Kinkos. 6.95 for binding and covers. Good to know people.

Hmmm musta lowered their prices by quite a bit.

Of course my price is from 4 years ago. lol

Ugh, please, just stop, all of you. It's like watching old people make love.

Yes, GW makes a considerable profit if you only take the actual printing and binding costs into account. The writing costs for a GW rulebook are far greater than for a normal book (or a BL book, which is basically a normal book).

Comparisons to magazines are irrelevant. Magazines are produced in far greater numbers (remember economies of scale) and are much more cheaply-made than a GW rulebook.

Stelek wrote:
<snip>
But just so you aren't lost, GW makes huge amounts of money on their books.

A 'normal' hardback costs 2 bits, paperback costs 1.

Even adding in glossy paper and color, it comes out to less than 5/2. Sorry to say.
<snip>
Remember, don't say like you know. Actually know.

Are you saying the books or just the covers cost this?

Pariah Press wrote: Ugh, please, just stop, all of you. It's like watching old people make love.

Yes, GW makes a considerable profit if you only take the actual printing and binding costs into account. The writing costs for a GW rulebook are far greater than for a normal book (or a BL book, which is basically a normal book).

Comparisons to magazines are irrelevant. Magazines are produced in far greater numbers (remember economies of scale) and are much more cheaply-made than a GW rulebook.

Economies of scale apply to printing, not magazines. That is why most books and mags are printed by printers, not publishers. Sure, you get a discount if you regularly print 50,000 copies, compared to 25,000 copies, but the printer does not change the 25K run twice as much per copy as the 50K run. His fixed costs are spread across everything he prints, not individual jobs.

Also modern magazines with perfect binding, UV coated covers and CMYK throughout are not much more cheaply made than GW codexes. In fact a lot of the GW pages are cheap mono not colour. Codexes have a heavier card cover which is more expensive.

Remember, we are talking about a full colour, perfect bound 64pp mag costing £3.99 at retail, which makes a decent profit for the retailer, distributor and publisher in 30,000 sales Compare that with a not full colour, perfect bound 64pp codex costing £12 at retail, which we are asked to believe loses the retailer, distributor and publisher money.

I don't believe it.

As for writing costs, half the stuff in every codex is recycled from previous editions and costs nothing.