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I'm mostly explaining this to TC, but for everyone else enjoy.

So here's how it works.

The Vypers kill troops. The Prisms kill tanks.

To protect the Vypers, you move a Prism between an anti-tank unit and the Vypers.

This gives the Vyper a nice cover save, and they have the same benefit of fields as

The Vypers can fire at 36" and should do so, only firing the shuricannon when needed.

The Prism is going to get shot at of course but it has a much higher chance of surviving.

Even with a penetrating hit, it's still a single damage table.

That means you'll be shaken alot with 2 dice on any glances that you can't cover save away.

Penetrating hits are more dangerous, but that's why you have the holofields and spirit stones.

Anyway when you need to kill tanks, the Prisms let you.

When you need to kill squadrons of enemy vehicles, the Prisms and Vypers do it.

When you need to kill infantry, everything does it.

When you need to survive, fortune the Prism in front of the Vypers you are worried about AND the Vypers behind said Vypers.

This army does tend to make people angry, so don't play it with your friends.

2000 Pts - Eldar Roster - Prism/Vyper Army

1 Fire Prism @ 190 Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Spirit Stone (V: SpStn); Vectored Engines (VE); Shuriken Cannon (SCan); Prism Cannon (PC)

1 Fire Prism @ 190 Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Spirit Stone (V: SpStn); Vectored Engines (VE); Shuriken Cannon (SCan); Prism Cannon (PC)

1 Fire Prism @ 190 Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Spirit Stone (V: SpStn); Vectored Engines (VE); Shuriken Cannon (SCan); Prism Cannon (PC)

1 Vyper Squadron @ 315 Pts
1 Vyper @ [105] Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Scatter Laser (SctL); Shuriken Cannon (SCan)
1 Vyper @ [105] Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Scatter Laser (SctL); Shuriken Cannon (SCan)
1 Vyper @ [105] Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Scatter Laser (SctL); Shuriken Cannon (SCan)

1 Vyper Squadron @ 315 Pts
1 Vyper @ [105] Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Scatter Laser (SctL); Shuriken Cannon (SCan)
1 Vyper @ [105] Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Scatter Laser (SctL); Shuriken Cannon (SCan)
1 Vyper @ [105] Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Scatter Laser (SctL); Shuriken Cannon (SCan)

1 Vyper Squadron @ 315 Pts
1 Vyper @ [105] Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Scatter Laser (SctL); Shuriken Cannon (SCan)
1 Vyper @ [105] Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Scatter Laser (SctL); Shuriken Cannon (SCan)
1 Vyper @ [105] Pts
Holo-Field (Vehicle) (H-F); Scatter Laser (SctL); Shuriken Cannon (SCan)

3 Guardian Jetbike Squadron @ 76 Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Turbo-boosters; Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Cannon (SCan) (x1); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x2)

3 Guardian Jetbike Squadron @ 76 Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Turbo-boosters; Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Cannon (SCan) (x1); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x2)

3 Guardian Jetbike Squadron @ 76 Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Turbo-boosters; Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Cannon (SCan) (x1); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x2)

1 Farseer @ 140 Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Fortune ; Turbo-boosters; Ghost Helm (GH); Rune Armour (RAmr); Runes of Warding (RofWard); Runes of Witnessing (RofWit); Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x1)

1 Farseer @ 115 Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Psyker; Fortune ; Turbo-boosters; Ghost Helm (GH); Rune Armour (RAmr); Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x1)

Total Roster Cost: 1998

Edit: Got rid of the emoticons...

"To protect the Vypers, you move a Prism between an anti-tank unit and the Vypers.

This gives the Vyper a nice cover save, and they have the same benefit of fields as "

The only problem is you can't hide behind a grav vehicle anymore. In the rules It states this as well as a little illustration to show this also. Sorry

Other than that I like your list. Saim hann all the way. Me 2

It does? Why yes, it does. Right here in the rulebook.

You can indeed hide behind a grav vehicle. Why don't you flip to the section on cover saves when obstructed.

The neat part is learning about oblique firing solutions. From the Vypers to another part of the enemy army. Not the one in front of the Prism...that's why I mentioned the whole 'move between' part.

Guess you can hide, huh.

Sorry. Other than that, like your post.

I gotta ask, stelek, do the holo-fields really add that much to the Vypers It seems like a huge points investment (almost half of a SL/SC vyper) for that upgrade. You could buy alot of stuff for those points.

You're used to playing against people who castle, aren't you?

I'm not sure how competitive this loadout would function in V5 considering that you are very light on scoring units - all of which will die easily against concentrated shooting or HTH.

As well, the army seems completely dependent on using fireprisms to provide cover saves - I am not sure how this would function in practice againt fast enemy units such as assault bikes, bikes and jump pack troops (which one might encounter in a 2000 point game). Fast moving meltaguns and plasmaguns (especially) might take sizable chunks out of the vyper force.

I really hope he brings this thing to Vegas. I am sure that he will duck my challenge for round 1, but if he did, this is an auto-win for me.

Darrian

Woot 2 krew insults.

More please!

Stelek wrote:Woot 2 krew insults.

More please!

I am here to oblige.

They reason why it will not work is because it is a gimmick list, and gimmick lists do not work.

You are spending a ton of points on Holo-fields for Vypers and once you get passed the 4+ cover save you are not going to be in good shape.

Also all you have for troops in 5th edition are 3 jetbike squads. All I have to do is to take them out (in the right missions), and you are done.



When the Eldar codex first came out I had an idea similar to yours. I called it the MSV (multiple small vehicle) list. It consisted of 9 Vypers and 9 War Walkers with Guardians with Bright Lances as the anti-tank. It did not work in 4th edition because it was to dependant on getting first turn, and suffered from bad match ups like chaos tank hunting auto-cannons. Even then I won about 66% of my games with it.

Now in 5th edition with the nerfing of some armies, and the 4+ cover save I think my idea has a lot more merit.

You get past the 4+ cover save with a re-roll, then past the Holo-fields, and let me know just how gimmicky the army is.

Alot of people talk about how troops armies are essential. They are not essential, if you don't base your army around taking objectives but instead base your army around killing scoring units.

That's what this army does.

Well, you are only fortuning two squadrons a turn (and that is without any anti-psychic defense).

You are resting all of your anti-infantry fire power on 3 groups of 3, BS3 scatter lasers. That comes out to 12 shots a squad, with 6 hitting, 5 wounding and 1.3 dead marines. That is terrible. How are you ever going to beat a marine army?

You can throw guide in there so 2 squads can kill a whopping 2.6 marines a turn.

That's probably why they have shuricannons, and the Prisms have large blast templates (and shuricannons).

It helps when you critique a list, to read it thoroughly.

Also if your troop light you can still contest what your opponent has his troops on with your other unit options. So if you can't claim then just prevent your opponent from doing the same.

Crazy talk Lemartes.

How could 9 units that move 24" possibly contest objectives??

Just crazy.

With the new V5 rules affecting "entire squadrons", it will be interesting to know how the Vyper horde holds up against deepstriking enemy units, which -may- bypass the Fireprism defense.

As well, this army seems to have little defense against indirectly firing template weapons (I think the non-los needing ones might even negate the Fireprism cover save). Even the lowly Whirlwind will do a number of a Vyper, with its Ordinance damage roll and bonuses for hitting an open topped vehicle.

Additional food for thought: In v5, the fireprisms are no more durable vs HTH than your vypers, and are wholly dependent on the skimmer rule and holofields to stay alive. Granted, the chance of being engaged in assault vs most things is pretty low, but with most things packing krak grenades, and the presence of some fast moving high strength critters - this army smacks off too many eggs in one basket.

Which 9 units are those? I see 3 min sized units of bikes that can move 24 and 2 farseers that can move 24.

Please bring 1750 of this army to Vegas.

Darrian

Oh it does pack all the eggs in one basket. I just think the basket is held by the big bad wolf. lol

I don't see anyone getting into HTH with these units, but if they do...they are still skimmers and with holo-fields you really do take much less of a risk than say any imperial tank (minus the land raider) which generally won't move and so will just eat it from fists (you didn't mention the fist nerf so I thought I would...it too helps).

As far as I know, you cannot negate a SMF roll or a cover save gained by terrain roll...but I think you are correct on negating the cover save from barrage weapons. The dark angel fiery barrages would bypass cover either way, although I don't think they'll do much because they are S4 and can only glance.

A deep striking force probably would bypass things quite a bit, but if they are deep striking wouldn't you just be moving 24" and gaining a 4+ cover save anyway, before the drop?

Stelek wrote:Alot of people talk about how troops armies are essential. They are not essential, if you don't base your army around taking objectives but instead base your army around killing scoring units.

I've been having the same thought about army lists. With contesting being a function of anything alive and holding objectives a function of troops only, you don't necessarily have to have hordes of troops - rather enough firepower/assault units to push your opponent off of theirs and enough troops to be able to hold your own objectives.

I've used the concept more in conjunction with Eldar elite choices seizing objectives rather than their Fast units killing everything, but the concept has some merit.

And there are a lot of "gimmick" armies out there. 'Nidzilla is a "gimmick" army in that it relies on high toughness and wounds to be incredibly resiliant.

Stelek: Does getting a compliment erase one of the insults in your bet?

I still don't like the list however. I think there are too many things that can be done - some of which are detailed above - to derail your plans.

Darrian13 wrote:Which 9 units are those? I see 3 min sized units of bikes that can move 24 and 2 farseers that can move 24.

Please bring 1750 of this army to Vegas.

Darrian

Please read the rulebook before making snide comments.

It's been explained elsewhere on the site, so you can go dig it up.

PapaNurgle wrote:

Stelek wrote:Alot of people talk about how troops armies are essential. They are not essential, if you don't base your army around taking objectives but instead base your army around killing scoring units.

I've been having the same thought about army lists. With contesting being a function of anything alive and holding objectives a function of troops only, you don't necessarily have to have hordes of troops - rather enough firepower/assault units to push your opponent off of theirs and enough troops to be able to hold your own objectives.

I've used the concept more in conjunction with Eldar elite choices seizing objectives rather than their Fast units killing everything, but the concept has some merit.

And there are a lot of "gimmick" armies out there. 'Nidzilla is a "gimmick" army in that it relies on high toughness and wounds to be incredibly resiliant.

Stelek: Does getting a compliment erase one of the insults in your bet?

I still don't like the list however. I think there are too many things that can be done - some of which are detailed above - to derail your plans.

Oh every list has it's weaknesses. If they didn't, I would run one all-powerful list then quit playing out of boredom.

I think I'd have to ask the bettor on the whole compliment/insult ratio. lol

Anyway I agree with your analysis, but I think that should be a new thread to discuss it. Hopefully you won't mind me doing so...tactics section I think.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/212571.page

Stelek wrote:I don't see anyone getting into HTH with these units, but if they do...they are still skimmers and with holo-fields you really do take much less of a risk than say any imperial tank (minus the land raider) which generally won't move and so will just eat it from fists (you didn't mention the fist nerf so I thought I would...it too helps).

IMO, the only carriers of powerfists in V5 that I would consider using in assault with your tanks are characters on bikes/jump packs, and terminators in Rhinos, all of which have more than 1 for their attacks statistic. A terminator charge would almost definitely pound one of those tanks into mush - though the resources to do it are prohibitive in my book.

Stelek wrote:As far as I know, you cannot negate a SMF roll or a cover save gained by terrain roll...but I think you are correct on negating the cover save from barrage weapons. The dark angel fiery barrages would bypass cover either way, although I don't think they'll do much because they are S4 and can only glance. A deep striking force probably would bypass things quite a bit, but if they are deep striking wouldn't you just be moving 24" and gaining a 4+ cover save anyway, before the drop?

I agree that as long as you are standing in cover (or zooming about), you will always benefit from this. I assumed that a skimmer army would not want to do this, as your chances of self-destructing due to cover is actually better than your chances of being destroyed by enemy fire!

About the moving fast vs. deepstrike, YMMV - as taking the 24" SMF save will prevent you from shooting at any portions of the enemy army which are not deepstriking.

Interestingly, on another aside, the grotesque amount of S5 Tau armies can bring (much of it deepstrikable) might make this a very sad day for the panzees indeed. Markerlights negating cover might turn ugly.

If you have a army that is deep striking half on and half off, and it isn't a guard army...honestly, I'm not that worried.

Guard, I would be.

Stelek wrote:That's probably why they have shuricannons, and the Prisms have large blast templates (and shuricannons).

It helps when you critique a list, to read it thoroughly.

I read your list, that is why I found it amusing.

So you are going to move your Vypers to within 24" to shoot your Shuricannons? Also Shircannons are no longer defensive weapons, so Vypers have to move 6" or less to fire them. Either way they are in trouble.

How long to you think your prisms will last in 5th edition? To get the SMF save you have to move 24", so if they are moving 12" to fire, then they are going to be dead.

PapaNurgle wrote:

And there are a lot of "gimmick" armies out there. 'Nidzilla is a "gimmick" army in that it relies on high toughness and wounds to be incredibly resiliant.

I guess we need to define what a "gimmick" list is.

IMO a gimmick list is one built around one thing or trick that has to happen, or the list fails. Demon bomb armies are an example of this. If you can get a summoning unit close and survive you win. If you can't you lose.

If you ignore that this list has very little in the way of offensive firepower, it is predicated on using skimmers to create a cover save. I don't see why most armies can't just kill the prisms or the Vypers.

Which 9 units are those? I see 3 min sized units of bikes that can move 24 and 2 farseers that can move 24.

Please bring 1750 of this army to Vegas.

Darrian

You can contest objectives with almost any unit. You can hold objectives with only troops.

Sorry Blackmoor, at this point it's just static man and I'm not in the mood to belabor all the nonsequitors you've thrown out today.

Stelek wrote:Sorry Blackmoor, at this point it's just static man and I'm not in the mood to belabor all the nonsequitors you've thrown out today.

That is ok. I understand what you are saying.

That is Stelek speak for "You are right, and I am wrong, and I can't argue my point anymore.

Not really. It's more like saying you're a forum troll/twit and I can't be bothered today.

I'd rather vacuum than respond to your nonsense.

I like the concept you're working with here Stelek.

Have you put any more thought into the combo EML/SC instead of SL/SC? With the removal of partials from blast weapons in 5th I find I'm getting consistently more hits on average than what I would get from the 4-shot BS3 SL. The S4/AP4 might not hit as hard but that extra bit of AP can come in handy for certain situations.

Any mobile heavy flamer is absolutely going to ruin a squad of 3 vypers, even with holo-fields - eldar jetbike squads with destructor locks for example. A drop podding dread, the new space marine land raider, the new space marine dread, etc. all ruin the design. Even granted the fact that you save from cover half the time, don't templates still get 2 hits on your open topped vehicle (or is that changed in v5?).

It seems like you're looking at the list as doing well against what is considered strong anti-tank in a 4th edition environment.

That list seems extremely weak for 2000 points. If an enemy stops your prisms from shooting (it shouldn't be hard to simply glance them) then they can focus the rest of their firepower on your extremely weak units. Couple that with the vehicle squadron rules, and I don't think this list is remotely viable.