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I've pretty much always been aware of the possibility of this example and wondered how many people take advantage. Apparently, at "the big Waagghh" some top level players (you guys know who you are) were guilty of these shenanigans.

EXAMPLE: (a rough example since I dont have any mission sheets right now for exact victory points)

You (the reader) and I play a game and you basically stomp me being able to take the first and secondary mission objectives, I score nothing, congrats (cause noone stomps me ) anyways, the point breakdown to go on our results sheet that we turn in goes like this...

You score 15 battle points for grabbing the first and second mission objectives.

I score 0 points for not accomplishing anything.

Now, towards the end of the game, you tell me "Great game dude, you really got robbed thanx to that last half of the 3rd turn, I've never seen that sort of dice rolling before, you're luck was really terrible. I owe you a beer for that one..." (this being the obligatory "no hard feelings for me stomping you, right?") Next you say, "Look, so your overall points dont suffer so much why dont we say that both of us accomplished the tertiary mission. You'll get 5 pts instead of 0 and your standing wont be so bad!" After all, what do YOU (the reader) care if I score 5 more battle points, I still lost, and this will bring the score to....

You score 20 battle points for completing first, secondary AND the tertiary objectives.

I score 5 points for the tertiary.

....Everyone comes out a winner right? Noones the wiser since only WE both know what happened in our game. "Whaddya say? Both of us accomplish the tertiary?" After listening to your generous offer, I'm impressed with the concern you have for my standing. I reply to you..."No thanx, I dont cheat. You got 15 buddy, sorry if that ruins your chances of an overall win, but you arent pulling a fast one on me!"

I heard of a VERY prominant player at "the big waagghh" pulling this crap during the tournement (and you know who you are jacka$$!), and was sort of pissed off by it...and I wasnt even there. He offered the tertiary victory to my accquaintance after beating him in the first and second...the only catch was, BOTH of them would get the points. My friend turned him down cold....since he isnt a cheater.

THIS SORT OF PRACTICE IS CHEATING, PLAIN AND SIMPLE!

If you are a top level player at a tournement and you pull this crap, one of the ones that has won overall or is a known player, you need to learn what the word "honor" means, since you dont have a clue. I've known people have pulled this in the past, but I never figured "Top Players" needed to do this sort of thing. Apparently they do in some cases. Despicable.

Something needs to be done about equal points for ties....this sort of behavior simply isnt fair and the battle point results at the end of a tournement will reflect accomplishments that the player has no right to.

I always hear about things like this. There are always rumors about various collusions to improve scores.

One of the popular ones is making a deal for soft scores like you give me a 10 (or a high score) for sportsmanship, and I will give you a 10 etc.

I like to think of myself as a top player, and I have never seen, engaged in, nor have I had anyone try to make a deal like this. Also I do not believe that I know of anyone who has had any direct expericance with scoring shenanigans.

Does it go on? I bet it does, but I don’t think it happens all that much.

There is also this item in this thread that concerns me:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/214686.page

40kenthusiast wrote:Big Waaargh tourney report:
Round 4:
Mech Eldar (mostly) (funny story about this, I'm originally matched up with a Mech Tau player who goes on to score really well in the tournament. Realizing I'm going to table him he goes to the judge and whines until he gets another opponent. In his own words "I"m shamelessly ducking you".

If this is true, then that is upsetting. After round #1 as far as opponents go, you get what you get, and you should not switch off. I do not know the accuracy of what happened here though.

It would be better if he paid me for giving him high soft scores and the tertiary mission bonus.

This kind of thing can be eliminated by only allowing one player to get each objective, even if it's only giving points to the player who accomplishes it first (or some other tiebreaker method).

Does anyone remember the year that the GTs used a kind of straight-up VP scoring system? Talk about ridiculous. There was a lot of *wink*-let's-just-kill-the-crap-outta-each-other-and-we'll-both-score-20s" going on. I'm sure it changed on the top tables late in the tourney, but it was just game after game of intentional bloodbaths everywhere else.

I agree with Blackmoor, though. I don't doubt some of what the OP describes goes on, but I've never really encountered it.

I played in the table one at the Adepticon invitational. It was a tight game, but the other guy got the primary, and neither of us got the secondary or tertiary. He asked me to mark that he'd gotten the secondary and tertiary, so he could stay ahead of the 2nd place table, where it looked like one dude was running away with it. I declined, and he apologized later for the request. He turned out to have enough points to win the tournament anyway.

This sort of thing definitely happens, but its like choosing the guy from your club for best army or whatever. Cheating plain and simple. I can't think of anything to be done about folks colluding to rig the scores, seems like as a player the only thing to do is not to participate and hope folk's better angels prevail.

I hate this kind of shenanigans! The thing that Blackmoor referred to is even worse to me. I think that a judge should automatically DQ anyone who comes up and whines about his next round opponent. That is utter crap. First round matchups against your friends are ok, but after round 1, no way!

i dont know about being matched up with your gaming buds...

if that happens i just go to the judge and tell him. look, we play each other a lot back at home. any chance we can get new match up??

because when i travel to go to a tourny, i dont want to play the people i play every week.


but i have never heard of anyone doing the score rigging... that is just wow. http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/The_Phases_of_a_Gamer ..... evil warlord is what i say

There is no point to it. when i go to a tourny, i want my score to be just that. MY SCORE. not my score + extra points.

In the thread that Blackmoor posted, the Tau player did not want to play an opponent because he was an unfavorable matchup, not because they were gaming buddies.

I played in one of the regional qualifiers for the 40K Ard Boyz this past fall. I went with two of my buddies who qualified. When we show up, we check the tables out and start chatting with some of the other folks. I'm getting my necrons out of the case and on to my tray, and another player (who I can tell is a gunslinger) is like "Crap, is that your army?" then "I hope I don't draw against you!".

Round one I smoke my opponent for 25 points, total up the sheet and turn it in. As I'm coming to pick up my models I see this guy has also turned his scores in and ask him how he did. He scored 25 also and I tell him we might be playing each other. He doesn't look too happy about that! Round two pairings go up and I'm playing someone else. Out of curiosity I check the points from first round and now the gunslinger has 24 points. "What's up gunslinger, I thought you got 25 last round?" I ask him, and he tells me he realized he got a bonus point by accident the previous round and went to the judge to correct it.

I suppose he could be the most honest 40K player I've ever met, but I wonder...

In the end it didn't help him cause he didn't qualify anyway.

Ah well, anymore I keep my eyes and ears open. You can't catch everything, but it doesn't hurt to pay attention.

I haven't played in any tourneys since the end of 3rd ed. The reasons being is the somewhat fairly prevalent chipmunking of soft scores which is why I am such an avid hater of that scoring system. Its good in theory, but there are alot of gamers who have to be the sorest kind of gakker around and lowball you because they take the game too seriously.

Then I looked more closely at tournaments and found that 40K isn't really a suitable game for tourney play, atleast when you are not amongst a group of people you play with frequently. The rules are far from sound enough to warrant such an anonymous competitive setting when compared to games that are quite good in tourney settings, such as Magic: the gathering.
Inter-game club tourneys = good
Anonymous cheesedicking tourneys = bad.

Thats not to say that people don't enjoy going to Adepticon and such to play competitively, the growing numbers each year for attendance alone will attest to that.
But when the anonymous factor grows, so too does the chance of running into someone as Deadshane describes.

Score fairly, and have fun. Leave the ultra competitive, win-at-all-costs crap somewhere else where it is appreciated*.

Sadly, I think there will always be a way to tweak scores in your favor and people who will take take advantage of that opportunity.
Its the nature of a game where the rules are not meant to be played in such a competitive setting.

Sorry that this turned into an anti-tourney post.




*If you are wondering where such is appreciated, here is a hint: Nowhere, dumbass.

Notice that the guy that voted that "it's really not that bad" didnt comment.

...Prolly realises that he's a jerk....

Thanks for the OP Deadshane.

That example you gave is, plain and simple, CHEATING!!!

I played a game against a Necron player (not my usual gaming buddy) who pulled some serious BS during our game.

I was a bit shaken up after speeding on an interstate to get to the tourney on time, and wasn't really making good battlefield decisions. On top of this, my 1850 points of Guard were fighting 30 Immortals, and he still felt the need to Veil his Lord along with an unattached unit nearly 4" away at all times across the entire board multiple times. I had a weak list, was not thinking clearly, and yet he still felt the need to be an asswipe and veil unattached, disparate squads, take WBB for his Warriors when I killed them with Meltaguns (I was awake enough to realize that he did not have a ResOrb nearby).

It's one thing to play by the book. But it's completely uncalled for when your opponent starts the game with a major advantage over you, and still is immature enough to cheat.

CK

That is the sort of crap that really irritates me. I'll politic for sportsmanship. (because subjective scoring making up such a high percentage is dumb) but I will never politic for extra battle points. It is not fair to ANYONE competing to win.

There are a whole list of tournament social faux pas and that is pretty high on the list, along with lobbying to get out of touch match ups or moving around terrain on a tournament board to suit your army before the match.

Stuff like this is why I'm a (competitive) store/club gamer. The tourneys just seem to be people taking what is after all a game of Toy soldiers way too seriously.

This is very similar to what happened at the games day in Baltimore, the person who won best sportsman said to each opponent "I'll give you a 10 in sportsmanship if you give me a 10." The worst part is I've played the guy and he's a jerk. But everyone of them did it and he won BEST SPORTSMAN. It's unreal...

People voting that "it's not so bad" or "perfectly acceptable" need to man up and tell us all why they think so.


....filthy cheaters.

Profanity removed by MOD. This is in violation of the rules against profanity

I'm sure Dave is being made very aware of this already.

However, maybe you can rat on one guy, but every other offender goes unpunished. A good immediate fix would be just to fix the system. Equal points for tieing needs to be adjusted somehow....it CAN be done.

I would post names and put them "out there", however, I wasnt actually AT the big Waagghh, I didnt actually WITNESS anything, so what can I really say. My accuaintance on the other hand....its up to him.

Just thought I would post this subject as its really a point of contention.

Profanity removed by MOD. This is in violation of the rule against profanity.

Tournament scoring *should* be really simple, leaving no room for this kind of rubbish.

1. Objectives - either the missions should be constructed so that only 1 player can achieve them, or if not, points should be split between them

2. Painting/Rosters etc. - should be done at registration. Why make players do extra paperwork to make what should be the same point every round? When you book in, you open your case, leave a copy of your roster with the judges, get your points - no worries!

3. Sportsmanship - a tricky one (as you have to play the game first), but how about this? Sportsmanship isn't scored and so has no bearing on the overall result.
BUT - you do secretly rate each of your opponents as poor, normal or good for sportsmanship. If you put poor or good you MUST say why! Anyone who doesn't give a reason counts as a normal result.
If you give a poor rating, the judges will look at why and will keep an eye on that player in his next game. If they are not playing properly, they will be given a warning and a points penalty. If they persist, they get disqualified!
Good ratings only count towards the 'most sporting' award, with the comments being used to help the judges in the case of a tie.


Or is all that too much like common sense for a tournament organiser??

Dave Taylor did not organize the Big Waaagh. That was a local gaming group that set it up. Dave is the point of contact for them with GW and undoubtably helped with prize support, contacts for other events (Adepticon, etc.), and ideas. But, Dave wasn't, as far as I know, the ultimate organizer since it was a locally-run event not a GT.

What does it say about our society that people cheat to try to win tournies played with toy soldiers?

The only time I've ever asked to be re-seeded was the third game of a RTT when I played my friend, who I've played about 3,000 times at various games in the last 10 years. We ended up playing each other since no one else had the same points.

Here's a good one, that goes to show that the presence of a judge does not auto-fix a problem.

It's first round of a Chicago GT and I'm playing Tau. My opponent is Spacewolves with a fair bit of drop-pods. As we're getting our stuff ready and waiting to hear the mission, my opponent casually asks a passing judge "Hey, what do you think is better against Tau, a Dreadnought in a drop pod or a unit of Termies?", the judge gets excited to be able to give his opinion and goes on about how the termies are a better choice. My opponent nods sagely and picks his drop pod and dread up off the table and pulls out a unit of termies.

This is IN FRONT of the judge, and my jaw is almost on the floor. But it's Spacewolves and I have pity on the poor guy. Besides, a Dread in a drop pod is a better choice vs. non-mech Tau for the points anyways.

Nothing amazes me anymore.

G

If you concede a game and give up all possible points to your opponent, is that considered the same thing?

thehod wrote:If you concede a game and give up all possible points to your opponent, is that considered the same thing?

If your going to get tabled anyway, I don't how in throwing in the towel can be the same thing. You may just want to stop the beating and a get a nice cold beer to help with those bruises.

As for the above issue, I wasn't at the WAAAGH so I can't comment about what went on, besides to say that most people I've spoken to had a good time at a great tournament. I voted it's below the belt. But to quote GBF, it doesn't surprise me. Not much at tournaments does anymore.

The scenario in the OP is just clearly wrong. No two ways about it. Total BS.

Also BS is the space wolf unofficial sideboard.

I do see thehod's scenario as being a little different. This has happened to me. I had pretty much won a game in a tournament, having taken the primary and secondary objectives and the bonus points. I of course wanted to keep playing and try to get the tertiary, and I had a clear plan to do so. My opponent did not want to sit through this, and preferred to get a little longer break before the next round, so he just conceded that I got the tertiary, and we wnet on our way. I don't really see this as cheating.

anyone willing to "fix" the results of a game is also willing to reach into your wallet and take your lunch money..

it's just a bully used to getting his way. Too bad there are people that just can't get enough in life without trying to cheat at a "toy soldiers" game.

Those are also the kind of douchenozzles that would cheat at checkers, cut in line, and pick on "smaller" people. The only thing they understand is a punch in the face or a swift kick in the groin. They are nutless wonders anyways, so it won't hurt too much.

Hmmm nutless wonders.

(EDITED as being out of context and unnecessary. )

Only time will tell.