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I just pray they remove Ogryns and Ratlings from the list. They just don’t fit with the fluff of the humans. Lets face it they would be destroyed by the empire because they are heretics that are not human. Not to mention they are just dumb all around.

Now they need to create the fluff for Ratling and Ogryn replacements they do need something to fill that role but they should be humans.

Jesus, please make rough riders have motorcycles or something and not look like ancient Chinese warriors. Most people would love to take squads of these but they models are just so bad no one does unless you want win really bad, and I don’t want to win bad enough to have to look at those.

Also they need to lower the cost for about everything in the army 25%

They need to buff mortars, look at what a Whirlwind can do for only 5 points more.

OMG help the basic foot troop in IG they are way overpriced and only Gretchen are worse.

The Chimera needs to be about 50% of its points cost. Look at a rhino and see how much cheaper it is for a model that is almost identical and has 3 access points and 2 fire points.

Heavy weapons squads need some cannon fodder or make Heavy weapons teams consist of 3 people. Currently 6 5+ save models is BS they die way to fast and we can’t increase the size of them. Most other HW squads in the game can at least take 10 models.

Increase the size of the command squads also. OMG 5 models that have a 5+ save that give 2 kp is just dumb.


Vox casters should be a single free upgrade or something that possibly does not count as wargear for that model to be singled out. It should be a squad upgrade that needs to be "modeled on a squad as a raido pack". If the command squad gets killed the leadership bonus would be lost, so it gives them a purpose.

I saw that Platoon drill may be in the codex but I think also to help not make the IG basic infantry cost 2 points (which still may be overpriced) give them something like a free HW/SW for the squads that are tailored maybe like HBs, AC, Grenade launchers are free and you pay for ML, Plasma, and LC. Another option to help would be to give them the sharpshooter rule to help boost their stats some, call it a different name such as volume of fire( if you fire enough stuff at the enemy your bound to hit something rule). It could be something like you have to buy a radar dish to get this upgrade or something you must protect and have to place strategically. I just don’t want guardsmen to cost like 4 points and now my army becomes even larger and more unwieldy. Also, Caprice armor is a possible free upgrade.

Hellhounds rock but I suppose those will get nerfed or something because they are truly a good unit. Leman Russes are also good but should become a bit cheaper and have more sponson options.

On Vehicles Heavy stubbers should be WAY WAY WAY cheaper maybe like a 5 point upgrade if that same with storm bolters. 12 points for the Heavy Stubber is way to much for a BS 3 STR 4 AP 5 weapon. Let’s face it, seeing those 50cal look alikes on the vehicles look so cool that it makes you want to play IG. I would love to see more of them being used. Pretty much all the vehicle upgrades cost far too much.

I would love to see some new stuff such as radio jammers, weapon jammers, ect. The could be placed on certain vehicles, scouts, storm troopers, or something and force things like an extra D6 of scatter for the target models template weapon. Another option is to make jamming make weapons of a target unit lose d6” inches of range. Also, radio jamming could force models of a certain unit lose -2 to their leadership since they cant talk to their HQ and that could be unnerving for any infantry. This could be intresting if done correctly.

broxus wrote:I just pray they remove Ogryns and Ratlings from the list. They just don’t fit with the fluff of the humans. Lets face it they would be destroyed by the empire because they are heretics that are not human. Not to mention they are just dumb all around.

Then you haven't read the old fluff. At least you no longer have beastmen or mutants.


Now they need to create the fluff for Ratling and Ogryn replacements they do need something to fill that role but they should be humans.

broxus wrote:
Jesus, please make rough riders have motorcycles or something and not look like ancient Chinese warriors. Most people would love to take squads of these but they models are just so bad no one does unless you want win really bad, and I don’t want to win bad enough to have to look at those.

I believe they're intended to resemble the Mongols. Some Chinese may not want to be equated . I considered making snowmobiles for my Valhallans. Perhaps this is a good opportunity for a conversion project.

broxus wrote:
Also they need to lower the cost for about everything in the army 25%

I played guard for many years, through the end of 2nd and into the beginning of fourth, when I switched to Eldar. You need to give a specific reason why they cost too much, unit by unit. Otherwise, you need to look at how you're playing them. You're talking about a huge buff, it would be equivalent to me taking you on with 1500 points to your 1875. That is a lot of lascannons aimed downrange. Furthermore, why not address individual units, instead of suggest an across the board buff. Is the Russ broken? Is the hellhound broken??

broxus wrote:
They need to buff mortars, look at what a Whirlwind can do for only 5 points more.

You're comparing a lightly armored vehicle with one ordnance template to 6 guys with a barrage. Two very different units.

broxus wrote:
OMG help the basic foot troop in IG they are way overpriced and only Gretchen are worse.

The reason for the organization and characteristics of guard guys is consistent with the fluff. They're overpriced?? I don't recall how much a squad of ten was, but I know it was not large at all. You also can take many more units as IIRC the squads don't count as troop choices, the entire platoon does. In fairness, that could work against you in a kill point game.

broxus wrote:
The Chimera needs to be about 50% of its points cost. Look at a rhino and see how much cheaper it is for a model that is almost identical and has 3 access points and 2 fire points.

I'm not so sure, you're getting a more powerful weapon with multiple shots and heavier front armor.

broxus wrote:
Heavy weapons squads need some cannon fodder or make Heavy weapons teams consist of 3 people. Currently 6 5+ save models is BS they die way to fast and we can’t increase the size of them. Most other HW squads in the game can at least take 10 models.

5th edition addresses this with screening and better cover saves.

broxus wrote:
Hellhounds rock but I suppose those will get nerfed or something because they are truly a good unit. Leman Russes are also good but should become a bit cheaper and have more sponson options.

Don't look at it as the glass being half empty. Worrying about things beyond your control is not productive. Meditation or focusing your chi or something might help. Of course, if they're 25% cheaper, they need to be nerfed.

broxus wrote:
I would love to see some new stuff such as radio jammers, weapon jammers, ect. The could be placed on certain vehicles, scouts, storm troopers, or something and force things like an extra D6 of scatter for the target models template weapon. Another option is to make jamming make weapons of a target unit lose d6” inches of range. Also, radio jamming could force models of a certain unit lose -2 to their leadership since they cant talk to their HQ and that could be unnerving for any infantry. This could be intresting if done correctly.

You can pick any unit anywhere on the board and make them lose 2 Ld? How many of these would you be able to take? Would they stack?

The jamming option would be no big deal for lascannons, but what about melta weapons. Would it decrease the melta effect range as well? Can you do it any time you want, or do you have to declare at the beginning of your phase? Opponents phase? Sounds like something to pretty much invalidate my fire dragons.

Dealt with.

broxus wrote:[SNIP]

OK, that's a lot of stuff, but...

Ogryn & Ratling abhumans are still "human" (unlike Beastmen, who were declared heretic sometime between RT and 3E). They're fine as "Elites", because they don't really come from the core IG BN/CO organization.

Rough Riders can be modeled as motorcycles, mono-wheelers, beast riders, or whatever you like. Also, the classic Attillans are based on Mongols, NOT Chinese. Not all Asians are the same. And IIRC, FW makes a set of RRs for Tallarns, plus you could aways convert from WFB.

While a lot of IG stuff is overcosted, I'm not sure a 25% cost drop is warranted across the board. Chimeras are grossly overpriced to the point of unplayability, while Guardsmen and Russes are only somewhat overpriced.

I agree Mortars should be redone. I suggested Frag (Large Blast) and Krak (S6 hole).

Guardsmen are OK stats-wise, and the Platoon concept is sound. They're probably slightly overpriced (5 pts NOT 6 pts), but the real problem is the overpriced Chimera, which forces them into a static shooty build.

The Chimera should be costed more like a twin-HB Razorback than a Rhino, trading BS4 for the AV12 Front.

Heavy / Special weapons squads are fine as 3 teams of 2 models each. They can lose all 3 Loaders before losing any Gunners, and as long as they can wear Carapace and/or Cameoline, they'll be fine.

Command squads could be bumped to Leader +5 models for a total of 6 models, like a Heavy Weapons squad. Then IG are built entirely on 6s and 10s. And again, Carapace and/or Cameoline are the natural fixes.

Vox should be integrated into the Platoon concept, simply as how the IG function and fight.

Platoon drills are generally a bad idea because they're not modeled so easily gamed.

Hellhounds are OK as is, and probably don't need much change.

Leman Russes could drop a few points, but nothing as serious as the Chimera.

PMHS and PMSB should be comparable as 5-pt upgrades.

Radio jammers simply aren't necessary.

... so overall, I agree with a lot of your points. But I don't necessarily agree with your solutions.

Just make Platoons special and distinctive as the way that IG fight, analagous to how Empire has Detachments:
- count as a single unit for Reserves and KPs
- must field as separate units for Objectives
- unified Ld under the PT Lt.
- can attach 0-1 Heavy, 0-1 Special Weapons teams
- can take special equipment like Cameoline / Carapace / Mechanize for all squads
Simple!

Grignard wrote:

broxus wrote:I just pray they remove Ogryns and Ratlings from the list. They just don’t fit with the fluff of the humans. Lets face it they would be destroyed by the empire because they are heretics that are not human. Not to mention they are just dumb all around.

Then you haven't read the old fluff. At least you no longer have beastmen or mutants.


Now they need to create the fluff for Ratling and Ogryn replacements they do need something to fill that role but they should be humans.

broxus wrote:
Jesus, please make rough riders have motorcycles or something and not look like ancient Chinese warriors. Most people would love to take squads of these but they models are just so bad no one does unless you want win really bad, and I don’t want to win bad enough to have to look at those.

I believe they're intended to resemble the Mongols. Some Chinese may not want to be equated . I considered making snowmobiles for my Valhallans. Perhaps this is a good opportunity for a conversion project.

broxus wrote:
Also they need to lower the cost for about everything in the army 25%

I played guard for many years, through the end of 2nd and into the beginning of fourth, when I switched to Eldar. You need to give a specific reason why they cost too much, unit by unit. Otherwise, you need to look at how you're playing them. You're talking about a huge buff, it would be equivalent to me taking you on with 1500 points to your 1875. That is a lot of lascannons aimed downrange. Furthermore, why not address individual units, instead of suggest an across the board buff. Is the Russ broken? Is the hellhound broken??

broxus wrote:
They need to buff mortars, look at what a Whirlwind can do for only 5 points more.

You're comparing a lightly armored vehicle with one ordnance template to 6 guys with a barrage. Two very different units.

broxus wrote:
OMG help the basic foot troop in IG they are way overpriced and only Gretchen are worse.

The reason for the organization and characteristics of guard guys is consistent with the fluff. They're overpriced?? I don't recall how much a squad of ten was, but I know it was not large at all. You also can take many more units as IIRC the squads don't count as troop choices, the entire platoon does. In fairness, that could work against you in a kill point game.

broxus wrote:
The Chimera needs to be about 50% of its points cost. Look at a rhino and see how much cheaper it is for a model that is almost identical and has 3 access points and 2 fire points.

I'm not so sure, you're getting a more powerful weapon with multiple shots and heavier front armor.

broxus wrote:
Heavy weapons squads need some cannon fodder or make Heavy weapons teams consist of 3 people. Currently 6 5+ save models is BS they die way to fast and we can’t increase the size of them. Most other HW squads in the game can at least take 10 models.

5th edition addresses this with screening and better cover saves.

broxus wrote:
Hellhounds rock but I suppose those will get nerfed or something because they are truly a good unit. Leman Russes are also good but should become a bit cheaper and have more sponson options.

Don't look at it as the glass being half empty. Worrying about things beyond your control is not productive. Meditation or focusing your chi or something might help. Of course, if they're 25% cheaper, they need to be nerfed.

broxus wrote:
I would love to see some new stuff such as radio jammers, weapon jammers, ect. The could be placed on certain vehicles, scouts, storm troopers, or something and force things like an extra D6 of scatter for the target models template weapon. Another option is to make jamming make weapons of a target unit lose d6” inches of range. Also, radio jamming could force models of a certain unit lose -2 to their leadership since they cant talk to their HQ and that could be unnerving for any infantry. This could be intresting if done correctly.

You can pick any unit anywhere on the board and make them lose 2 Ld? How many of these would you be able to take? Would they stack?

The jamming option would be no big deal for lascannons, but what about melta weapons. Would it decrease the melta effect range as well? Can you do it any time you want, or do you have to declare at the beginning of your phase? Opponents phase? Sounds like something to pretty much invalidate my fire dragons.

I pretty much think your wrong on everything you said but I can respect your view. Though the general trend of all the armies is they keep getting more powerful for the same points value. Case in point, Eldar, Tyranids, Tau, Orcs, and most definatly SM. Ok most will agree CSM are the only exception with a few mumblings of DA.

In regards to ogryns and ratlings, you sir are definatly are in the minority if you think they are a cool concept and cool models. In every forum I've read most people would like to see something done about them they are out of place in that list and look more like fantasy models. Yes and thank god they dont have beastmen or mutants anymore those would be just as bad. Personally I think the emperor would kill them all as freaks of humanity.

In regards to the Rough Riders, your absoultly correct I have only seen the models used once by young kid. This is to include th e20+ tournments I have been in. I have seen them used but they are ALWAYS converted to bikes, wolves, or something besides horses and their current models. Even in your own example you said how you would convert them, if the models were decent then everyone wouldnt have to convert them.

I dont feel like going unit by unit to show which are over priced. Some units are worse off than others of course the standard guardsmen is the worst off. I agree the Russ and Hellhound dont need 25% price reduction. I was giving that as a blanket statement saying that for example a guardsmen is 35% overpriced and a Russ is 15% overpriced giving an average of 25%. This was a general not to be taken to literal statement.

Yes for the mortars I am comparing a lightly an armored vehicle with a ordance barrage, STR 5, AP 4 that can take mines and get inferno rounds(or so rumors say) to my 3 small STR AP 6 templates that are crewed by 6 guardsmen that are T3 with 5+ saves. I would take that vehicle anytime of the day for only 5 points more. Ahh lets not forget that the ordance give it -1 to your leadership. I think when you put them side by side you can see that mortars need a buff.

Ok you have to be kidding about the Chimera comment. A Rhino is AV 11/11/10 and gets a BS 4 storm bolter, 2 fire points, and can self repair immobilized rolls for 50 points (rumored to be 35 in the new codex). Now lets compare that to a Chimera that has AV 12/10/10, A special weapon of choice at BS3, 1 fire point, and 6 BS3 STR3 AP- lasguns that can be used if occupied for a total of 80 points. If you think those 6 lasguns are worth all those points then I dont know what to tell you.

6 models for our HW teams is still way too few we should have the option to get more models even the mighty SM get up to 10 models, I fail to see why you would'nt aggree with this.

Finally the Electronic Warfare wasnt a specific type of weapon if you noticed i said examples. I didnt give points values or say it should be like this. I just think that adding some electronic warfare squads into the game could make it more intresting and tried to throw around some ideas of how to do it. How that would be balanced with points Im not sure someone at GW would have to do that.

Personally, since you didnt aggree with a single thing in my post you must really hate IG or fear them getting some help. I guess if I was playing Eldar, universally know to be quite chessy (not saying you play it like this at all) then I would welcome some armies like IG that lag behind getting a buff to make the games more challinging since you would clearly have an an advantage due to the dated IG codex being underpowered to the new codex's in 4th and most likely 5th edition.

Thanks

JohnHwangDD wrote:

broxus wrote:[SNIP]

OK, that's a lot of stuff, but...

Ogryn & Ratling abhumans are still "human" (unlike Beastmen, who were declared heretic sometime between RT and 3E). They're fine as "Elites", because they don't really come from the core IG BN/CO organization.

Rough Riders can be modeled as motorcycles, mono-wheelers, beast riders, or whatever you like. Also, the classic Attillans are based on Mongols, NOT Chinese. Not all Asians are the same. And IIRC, FW makes a set of RRs for Tallarns, plus you could aways convert from WFB.

While a lot of IG stuff is overcosted, I'm not sure a 25% cost drop is warranted across the board. Chimeras are grossly overpriced to the point of unplayability, while Guardsmen and Russes are only somewhat overpriced.

I agree Mortars should be redone. I suggested Frag (Large Blast) and Krak (S6 hole).

Guardsmen are OK stats-wise, and the Platoon concept is sound. They're probably slightly overpriced (5 pts NOT 6 pts), but the real problem is the overpriced Chimera, which forces them into a static shooty build.

The Chimera should be costed more like a twin-HB Razorback than a Rhino, trading BS4 for the AV12 Front.

Heavy / Special weapons squads are fine as 3 teams of 2 models each. They can lose all 3 Loaders before losing any Gunners, and as long as they can wear Carapace and/or Cameoline, they'll be fine.

Command squads could be bumped to Leader +5 models for a total of 6 models, like a Heavy Weapons squad. Then IG are built entirely on 6s and 10s. And again, Carapace and/or Cameoline are the natural fixes.

Vox should be integrated into the Platoon concept, simply as how the IG function and fight.

Platoon drills are generally a bad idea because they're not modeled so easily gamed.

Hellhounds are OK as is, and probably don't need much change.

Leman Russes could drop a few points, but nothing as serious as the Chimera.

PMHS and PMSB should be comparable as 5-pt upgrades.

Radio jammers simply aren't necessary.

... so overall, I agree with a lot of your points. But I don't necessarily agree with your solutions.

Just make Platoons special and distinctive as the way that IG fight, analagous to how Empire has Detachments:
- count as a single unit for Reserves and KPs
- must field as separate units for Objectives
- unified Ld under the PT Lt.
- can attach 0-1 Heavy, 0-1 Special Weapons teams
- can take special equipment like Cameoline / Carapace / Mechanize for all squads
Simple!

We may not aggree on the solutions but at least we aggree on the problems. That is the first step. Radio jammers and other EW are just an idea to help make some intresting units and armies. It may help get rid of the same type of games over and over and help create some depth. Not nesecarry but could be very fun.

broxus wrote: I pretty much think your wrong on everything you said but I can respect your view. Though the general trend of all the armies is they keep getting more powerful for the same points value. Case in point, Eldar, Tyranids, Tau, Orcs, and most definatly SM. Ok most will agree CSM are the only exception with a few mumblings of DA.

If everything is getting more powerful at once, how do you determine that? If they both get more powerful they may still be equal. In other words, the power of armies only has meaning relative to other armies.

broxus wrote: In regards to ogryns and ratlings, you sir are definatly are in the minority if you think they are a cool concept and cool models.

At no point did I say they were cool in any way. In fact, the old Ogryn models are atrocious, IMHO. The point is that they have always been part of the fluff.

broxus wrote:

Personally, since you didnt aggree with a single thing in my post you must really hate IG or fear them getting some help. I guess if I was playing Eldar, universally know to be quite chessy (not saying you play it like this at all) then I would welcome some armies like IG that lag behind getting a buff to make the games more challinging since you would clearly have an an advantage due to the dated IG codex being underpowered to the new codex's in 4th and most likely 5th edition.

It isn't a case of either I agree with everything you say or I don't like guard, that doesnt follow. I play a good number, if not most of my games, against guard. You do not know what type of list I play, therefore your statement about the general cheesiness of Eldar is meaningless. None of this is apropos to the points that were brought up.

I think Ogryns and Ratlings should be scrapped. They are clearly the result of an attempted fusion of 40k and fantasy which is now very dated. If you can't get away with having webbed fingers in the Imperium, these two races should have been persecuted to extinction in the crusades. I play guard and I'd never include these. Crap models and crap idea.

To replace them, I would like to see more Adeptus Mechanicus troops. These could be robotic servitor-warriors, hulking machines etc. In honesty there is no limit to the scope of AM potential, so I could even see them getting their own codex.

As for the ratlings, they should be replaced for a normal human sniper team. Infact there should be an elite option for special ops/weapons platoons. A platoon consists of special weapons teams or skills. (Subject to be abused but every army has something to abuse!)

As for heavy support, we need more tanks!! Rumour says that this may happen.

I like to have the guards buffed but I prefer if the ordinary guardsman get cheaper (and not be nerfed) so that I get more. Its all about the quantity!!

I would love to have more upgrade choices like the ones in Macharian crusade book by belloflostsouls. IG players must have!

For the biggest army in the fluff. The IG doesn't have a lot of heroes to vouch for. I am hoping for a remedy for this (i.e more special characters) but better is a custom character builder like giving it certain characteristic that will influence your game-style.

Also somehow, make it possible to play Guard competatively. With the high number of kill points in most guard armies, its hard to play a guard army.

In short, guard needs variety! (I don't like doctrines)
Q

Ogryn are fun. They're the closest thing us Guard players get to Orks. Plus they just got new models, so I can't see them going away very quickly.

They need to be better though. Much better. Right now, as a unit, they stink. One of the worst in the Codex (and that's saying something, as they've got some steep competition for that title).

Going over the thread... yeah... a lot of interesting comments. A lot of heated attempts at 'Explain why!' combined with knee-jerk changes that go a little too far, taking something that 'sucks' and making it 'too good to never take' (see Codex: Orks, Lootas).

I'll just take a look at it, and then say what I think:

broxus wrote:I just pray they remove Ogryns and Ratlings from the list.

This I kinda have to disagree with. Ratlings are Hobbits and Ogryns are Ogres, but I think, at least with the Ogryn, they've got them right - big super-humans with clunky uncomplicated weapons that only they're big enough to use. Insanley loyal, and monstrous in a fight (well, in the fluff they're monstrous, in game they can get wiped out by blind, legless Gretchin if they're not careful).

Ratlings... I dunno. I've got a small unit of 5 Ratlings that I'd never use in 40K, not because of the fluff but because Sniper Rifles act nothing like Sniper Rifles in 40K - you need batteries of the damned things to cause damage whereas Sniper Rifles should be few and far between and their effects should always be dramatic. I have a problem with a shooting gallery of precision weapons, doesn't matter whether they're Hobbot knockoffs or guys in Yowie suits covered in leaves.

I say fix snipers first, then worry about the things that are like them.

broxus wrote:Jesus, please make rough riders have motorcycles or something and not look like ancient Chinese warriors. Most people would love to take squads of these but they models are just so bad no one does unless you want win really bad, and I don’t want to win bad enough to have to look at those.

As said, they're Mongols, not Chinese but in any case I have to agree on their imagry being a problem. I like Rough Riders - I like the idea of the charge with a massed unit (the scene where the Rohirm show up in ROTK is my fav scene in all 3 LOTR films) - but I still can't really justify horses in 40K. They just seem too flimsy.

At the same time though... Guardsmen on bikes? I dunno. I don't like the image that conjures up. Guys on Bikes with long poles? I mean, the Cadians already have the motocycle helmets and the goggles - so that's in place - but it just doesn't seem as fun to have a bunch of Guard wannabe bikers.

broxus wrote:Also they need to lower the cost for about everything in the army 25%

Well... no. See this is a knee jerk reaction. Some things are overpriced so... uhh... reduce everything! Some things must go down. They simply must, but not everything.

broxus wrote:They need to buff mortars, look at what a Whirlwind can do for only 5 points more.

I agree, but I think comparing the to Whirlwinds is a bad comparison. Because they'll never bring armour save modifiers back in (because Alessio can't do 'math' in the same way Jervis can't do 'interesting'), then they should be S5 AP5.

Yeah, that's quite a jump from what they are now, but given it just became harder to hit with them (2D6-3" is a long way for a small blast), I think its waranted. They need to be able to wound Marines atleast 2/3rds of the time (even if they're then saved by the armour) to be worth taking in the first place, and they have to be able to slaughter hordes that are either in or out of cover.

They're Mortars after all. They're supposed to be frightening. Think of every WWII movie or TV show you've seen. Or any WWII game you've played. When you come under Mortar attack its harrowing. You can hear the shells coming in (I suspect they're designed to make some noise as they come in to land), but you don't know where they're going to land. Suddenly things around you just start exploding, people start dying, and you start running to where you think might be safe.

Mortars in 40K to not capture this image. A Guardsman could drop a Mortar shell at his feet and a nearly 50% chance of surviving it without a scratch. They're not scary, and they should be.

broxus wrote:OMG help the basic foot troop in IG they are way overpriced and only Gretchen are worse.

This is quite an interesting topic of debate, and one that really needs to be worked out before anything else can be changed as it goes to the core of a Guard army:

Are Guardsmen overpriced, underpriced, or just right?

On one hand, of course they're overpriced. 6 points for that? A guy who's good at nothing, isn't tough, and has one of the worst weapons in the game? You must be kidding me. As if that's worth 6 points.

But then, you consider that where everyone gets a squad for their troops choices, Guard can get up to 5, plus a Command Squad. They can fit a lot more guns in a single space than all other armies, so in a way them being 6 points each is a balancing factor.

I'm still in two minds as to how Guardsmen should be costed - I don't have an answer. I suspect that 5 points might be good to try (that's what we're doing in our rules), but I'm still not sure. I'd rather decrease the cost of Guard options and upgrades than their core costs.

Then there's Kill Points. No matter what we may think or want to happen with Kill Points and Guard, this is something we must consider. If they're gonig to be 1KP per squad of Guardsmen (rather than per FOC slot), then you could even argue that they're worth 4 points a model. If they're going to give away so much for your enemy buy dying, then you should be able to saturate the table with them so even if they kill heaps of your men, you can still score and auto-win by wiping your opponent out. Until that's resolved, we'll never know.


My biggest fear however is GW runs their little overbalancing thing again, gives Guardsmen Frag Grenades as standard, and costs them at 7 points each because they're 'better' with Frags. I just know that's going to happen...

broxus wrote:The Chimera needs to be about 50% of its points cost. Look at a rhino and see how much cheaper it is for a model that is almost identical and has 3 access points and 2 fire points.

You are of course forgetting the guns they're armed with, but, that said, you are at least right about the price of the Chimera being off.

When people say 'Oh it has AV12 front!' they're really forgetting that the Chimera has massive sides. They're very long, and very big, and very AV10.

Chimeras are also worth much less now because their main advantage - move and fire everything - has vanished.

Chimeras need to be about 50 points (before guns), with AV12/11/10. Multi-Laser at +10, Autocannon at +15, Heavy Bolter at +5, Heavy Flamer at +0, Hull Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer at +5. And that's it. Extra armour at 5. Smoke at 5. RTMs at 5. Pintle Stubber at 8. Pintle Storm Bolter at 5.

Multi-Lasers and ACs would be both +10 if ACs were R36", but that extra +12" makes a huge difference and is worth an extra 5 points.


Of course, GW will make them 60 points, make Extra Armour 15, and Pintle-Stubbers +20 becuse "they're so much better in the new rules with Defensive being S4". This will be especially true if they don't get a new kit.

broxus wrote:Heavy weapons squads need some cannon fodder or make Heavy weapons teams consist of 3 people. Currently 6 5+ save models is BS they die way to fast and we can’t increase the size of them. Most other HW squads in the game can at least take 10 models.

5th Ed actually covers this problem quite well. No need to change HW teams.

broxus wrote:Increase the size of the command squads also. OMG 5 models that have a 5+ save that give 2 kp is just dumb.

What, you want to pay more for your CHQs?

broxus wrote:Vox casters should be a single free upgrade or something that possibly does not count as wargear for that model to be singled out. It should be a squad upgrade that needs to be "modeled on a squad as a raido pack". If the command squad gets killed the leadership bonus would be lost, so it gives them a purpose.

Free upgrades just means you always take them, so that won't work. Why should the Vox-Caster model be separate from the (stupid and clunky) rules that govern wound allocation and casualty removal? What makes him so special?

Now I agree that Vox casters, in their current state, are purposeless. They don't do anything you can't already do for free. But to make them basically what they are now but for free doesn't make them any more attractive.

They need to do something that's got nothing to do with Leadership. They need to be a combination of current rules and the old Barrage rules from 2nd Ed. Vox Casters need to be about calling in fire!.

What's more exciting, dramatic and fun:

Scenario 1 -

Guardsmen #1: Sarge! They're coming! They're com- *bang*
Guardsmen #2: Emperor's Blood! They just killed Jimmy! What do we do Sarge?
Sarge: I don't know. Let's ask the Lieutenant. Private Jenkins, hand me the receiver for your Vox Caster.
Jenkins: Here ya go Sarge.
Sarge: Ok... dial 0 for an outside line. What's the area code again?
Guardsmen #2: 006 Sarge.
Sarge: Ah, yes, thankyou. Zero, zero, six. Uhh... hold on. *fishes in pocket* Here we go. Eight one nine, three seven two, five five three. Ok, it's ringing.
Guardsmen #2: Sarge! The enemy is still getting closer.
Sarge: Quite down private! Can't you see I'm on the damned phone... no... no not you sir. I was talking to one of my men... yes... yes... I'm fine... it's a little rainy... oh I know! I agree sir, it is humid here as well.
Jenkins: Tell the Lt. I said hi!
Sarge: Jenkins says hi... yeah... I'll tell him. Jenkins, the Lt. says hi as well... uh huh... yep, incoming all around us. Should we fall back or stay and fight.... fall back... ok, cool. Thank you for the input sir. We'll get right on that. Thank you sir. Good bye sir. No you hang up. No you hang up. Ok, I'll hang up. No you hang u... sir... sir, you there? He hung up on me!


Or, Scenario 2 -

Guardsmen #1: Sarge! They're coming! They're com- *bang*
Guardsmen #2: Emperor's Blood! They just killed Jimmy! What do we do Sarge?
Sarge: Jenkins! Get on the horn to command and tell them I want air support now!
Jenkins: Sarge, there's so much jamming!
Sarge: Just keep trying you pathetic excuse for a Guardsmen. Everyone else - let 'em have it!
Guardsmen #3 - We can't hold this line forever Sarge! We're gonna be over run!
Sarge: Shut up private. Keep firing! Jenkins, I need that air support!
Jenkins: I got through! They're sending it in now! They're sending it- *bang*
Guardsmen #2 - By the Emperor! They got Jenkins! Sarge?
Sarge - Keep firing damn it! Jenkins got through, now we just have to wait.
Gaurdsmen #3: What's that noise... it sounds like... like planes?
Sarge: That's the sound of a wing of Thunderbolt. Just sit back and enjoy the fireworks boys. Thank the Emperor Jenkins got through in time!


Radios should be used to call stuff in, not ask command if you can get an early mark from the battle.

broxus wrote:I saw that Platoon drill may be in the codex but I think also to help not make the IG basic infantry cost 2 points (which still may be overpriced) give them something like a free HW/SW for the squads that are tailored maybe like HBs, AC, Grenade launchers are free and you pay for ML, Plasma, and LC. Another option to help would be to give them the sharpshooter rule to help boost their stats some, call it a different name such as volume of fire( if you fire enough stuff at the enemy your bound to hit something rule). It could be something like you have to buy a radar dish to get this upgrade or something you must protect and have to place strategically. I just don’t want guardsmen to cost like 4 points and now my army becomes even larger and more unwieldy. Also, Caprice armor is a possible free upgrade.

Free heavy weapons? No thanks. We'll leave the free junk and fancy special rules to those damned Marine players. Guardsmen do thinks the real way. And as I said before, a free upgrade just means something you'd take all the time. Upgrade from 5+ to 4+ armour for free? Why would you ever not?

And for the record 'Caprice Armour' would be another way of saying 'Fancy Armour'. If you want to model all your soldiers as clowns, go ahead.

broxus wrote:Hellhounds rock but I suppose those will get nerfed or something because they are truly a good unit. Leman Russes are also good but should become a bit cheaper and have more sponson options.

If Hellhounds get a new kit, we're safe. If they don't, out comes the GW's Nerf Bat of Pendulum Swinging +4.

Russes, actually, should have their Sponson costs reduced if not eliminated completely. They can't use them while moving, and they can't use them when the main gun fires, so they're worth nothing.

broxus wrote:On Vehicles Heavy stubbers should be WAY WAY WAY cheaper maybe like a 5 point upgrade if that same with storm bolters. 12 points for the Heavy Stubber is way to much for a BS 3 STR 4 AP 5 weapon. Let’s face it, seeing those 50cal look alikes on the vehicles look so cool that it makes you want to play IG. I would love to see more of them being used. Pretty much all the vehicle upgrades cost far too much.

You are right here. 12 points for a longer ranged Shoota is not a good deal. 8 points would be about right.

broxus wrote:Personally, since you didnt aggree with a single thing in my post you must really hate IG or fear them getting some help.

Let's take the springs off our shoes so we can stop making leaps on logic ey broxus. Everyone gets their say... yes... even you John.


Next...

Grignard wrote:I considered making snowmobiles for my Valhallans. Perhaps this is a good opportunity for a conversion project.

That is such a cool idea.

I'm not so sure, you're getting a more powerful weapon with multiple shots and heavier front armor.

The 'heavier' front armour is a misnomer. AV12 is not hard to get through. It's 50/50 with S8. Most people can shoot a Chimera twice to make sure it gets through. 4 times if it's in cover.

Chimeras are now landlocked due to the (idiotic) vehicle rules, the armour around their (huge) sides is pathetic and their base cost is astronomical. They need to be much cheaper. Chimera w/Multi-Laser + Heavy Bolter should be around 60-70 points.




Generally speaking, Guard are a difficult army to rework. Everything they have is interconnected, and if you don't get the basic Guardsmen right, you'll never get the other choices right.

The first thing that has to change is the Doctrine system. The Doctrine System doesn't work because most of the doctrines are a load of junk (Hardened Fighters, Cybernetic Enhancement) , and a few of them are perfect and are always taken (Iron Discipline). Plus the restricted troop types aren't restrictive. If you weren't going to take Sanctioned Psykers or Priests in the first place (and why would you? They suck!), then not having access to them is no big deal.

In its place must go a system of platoon-level upgrades (ie. a Drop Platoon, a MechInf Platoon, a Light Infantry Platoon, etc.), so that you can make doctrine-like selections for each section of your army. It allows greater flexability, more theme options for the fluff junkies such as myself, more chances for mixed army types, more modelling opportunities and generally it's just more fun than being saddled with infantry armour, MechInf army, Drop Army - no variations.

Next, Guardsmen. As I said, I'm in two minds about the price. I think, given what else is in the game now and the state of the rules, 5 points is about right. Joined to that are the weapon costs. 5 points for Flamers and Grenade Launchers, 8 points for Plasma Guns, 10 points for Meltaguns. 5 points for Heavy Bolters, 8 points for Missile Launchers, 10 points for Autocannons and 15-18 for Lascannons. This would be the same across the board, regardless of Ballstic Skill (so no 15 point Plasma Guns just 'cause you're a BS4 Guardsmen). Platoon structure remains the same, with addition of Platoon Medics, Snipers, Commissars and Priests - all 0-1 per platoon, can be attached to any squad within the platoon. Additionally, platoons can take 0-2 support squads (AT, Mortar, AI, Special Weapon Squad).

Chimeras base cost down to 50. +HB and Multi-Laser makes 'em 65. Now 7-8 of them in a full MechInf army (if you choose that for your platoons) will cost 520 points rather than 680 points. That's a massive difference in a 1500 point army and makes MechInf Guard below 1500 points something that's actually possible.

Advisors are scrapped in favour of platoon advisors. Commissars allow squads nearby (or the squad they're with) to ignore failed Morale Checks completely - just remove a model as a casualty to represent the execution. Medics have a small 5+ FNP Radius. Priests Grant Stubborn and/or Furious Charge. Sanctioned Psykers become an actual HQ slot, stop sucking, and get some powers that aren't completely worthless. No random powers. You pay like everyone else, and no Heavy D6 Lasguns as our 'best' power. That was just insulting.

Storm Troopers - 4 Special Weapons per squad. Infiltrate and Deep Strike as standard.
Ogryn - No idea. Only way to make them competative is to make them Immune to Instant Death or give them a major 'faith in the Emperor' Invul save, neither of which makes sense.
Ratlings - The problem is Sniper Rifles, not Ratlings.
H-Vets - Infiltrate gives them a new lease of life that sets them apart from Storm Troopers. Give them some seriously good weapon options and some decent skills.
Tech-Priests - A decent statline and non-overpriced shooty Servitors. Ditch the Combat Servitors. Who's sending that guy into combat?

Infantry Platoons - Covered, except to say that it should be 1 KP per points in platoon or per amount of squads, not one per squad unless Guardsmen get to be 3-4 points each.
Armoured Fists - Do not require platoons.
Conscripts - Ummm... no I think they work in 5th as long as some sort of overall platoon rule allows Guard to fire through their own ranks. Again, do not need to have Guard platoon to take one. Can get attached Commissar. Ditch all the weapon options if they're going to be more expensive (seriously, what the f*ck were GW smoking when they made BS2 Conscript weapons worth more than BS4 Marine weapons?).

Sentinels - Base cost 25 points. Yes, really. A Lascannon Sentinel is not worth 50 points.
Hellhounds - Don't nerf them. Let them keep the rules for the Inferno Cannon.
Rough Riders - Rules are fine, just need new models.

Russes/Demolishers - Cheaper. Their guns are worse. They cannot move and shoot their HBs. Sponsons are free.

Basilisk - Cheaper. Its gun is so bad now with 2D6 scattering it's not funny.

Heavy Weapon Platoons - Same options for advisors, otherwise the same. Allow Special Weapon Squads so you can do 'Combat Engineer Platoons'.


And, for the love of the Immortal Emperor, give Yarrick back his Toughness 4!!!


BYE

Regarding the original post... no. Just no.

The Guard, while a little broken at the moment, don't require much reworking. The only things truly broken in any way other than points cost are mortars, priests, grenade launchers and sanctioned psykers. Generally speaking, the Guard need to have units added, not taken away.

Without Griffins, the Guard has suffered in close-range indirect, as it is far too easy for enemy units to close to inside the 36" minimum range of the Basilisk's earthshaker. The Exterminator needs to return as well. In addition, things like the Cyclops, heavy mortars and thudd guns need to migrate in from the Death Korps.

However, I think the thing that really needs to change is Guardsmen themselves. Here's the problem; Guardsmen are worse all-around because they are average. Being an all-rounder is actually basically the worst disadvantage you can have in this game, because every other army can beat up a guardsman by engaging them whatever way they are better at fighting. Look at it this way.

Guardsman
3 3 3 3 1 3 1 5+
Lasgun
24 S3 AP- Rapid

Ork Boy
2 4 3 4 1 2 2 6 6+
Shoota
18 S4 AP6 Assault2

Now, both these units are 6 points. The Ork has better WS, T and A, but worse BS, I and Save. In fact, the unit pretty much balances out stats all things considered. Of course, it's generally agreed that orks are a little overpowered and guardsmen are underpowered for their points, however... I don't think the problem is the points cost.

Guardmen cannot beat Orks in close combat, because Orks are clearly better at it. So they have to shoot the Orks to death. However, on average, the a unit of 10 Guardsmen with lasguns will shoot a unit of 10 orks 30 times before the orks charge the Guardsmen. 30 shots, 15 hits, 5 wounds, .8 saves. Not too bad, right?
Oh, wait, the Orks have Shootas. So lets try again.
Turn One
Orks move within 24". Guard get 10 shots, 5 hits, 1.65 wounds, .12 saves. So lets say two orks die.
Turn Two
Orks move 6" and fire their Shootas. 16 shots, 5.33 hits, 3.5 wounds, 1.16 saves. So 2 guardsmen die. The guard now fire 8 shots, 4 hits, 1.33 wounds, .1 saves. That's one more Ork. 7 are left.
Orks move 6" and fire their Shootas. 14 shots, 4.67 hits, 3 wounds, 1 save. Two more Guardsmen go down. 6 are left. Guardsmen shoot, 12 shots, 6 hits, 2 wounds .33 saves. There are now 5 Orks.
Orks move 6", fire their Shootas. 10 shots, 3.33 hits, 2.2 wounds, .7 saves. Lets be nice to the Guard and say one save, so another Guardsman goes down. Then, the Orks charge. The Guard get 5 attacks, 1.65 hits, .54 wounds, .04 saves. That's a fifty-fifty that an ork dies. Lets say he does, as it doesn't matter, because the Orks hit at the same time. 15 attacks, 10 hits, 6.66 wounds, 2.2 saves. 4 Guardsmen go down, and the last one is almost certainly going to run.
10 orks have solidly defeated 10 Guardsmen despite the guard getting 3 whole rounds of shooting in, 30 shots all told! There are still 4 Orks left too, enough to obscure the boyz behind them from any Guard units behind the first, and require putting fire just to kill 16 points of unit. Clear, something is amiss.

But open_sketch, you say, the Guard have tanks, artillery, heavy weapons and they should be in cover! Yes, and the Orks have Slugga boys, Warbosses, Power Fields and Frag Grenades, not to mention the ability to get Fleet of Foot once per game. The Guard and the Orks balance each other very well, each having a roughly equal advantage for each disadvantage. For every strength an ork has, he has a weakness too. The thing is, an Ork is decidedly good at close combat, but bad at shooting. Guard at equally in the middle for both of these. That should mean the Guardsman can hold his own in both shooting and close combat, but what it actually means is that enemies that are specised to one or the other can beat up the Guardsman using it, and the Guard are not good enough at the inverse to prevent it.

Look at the Tau. The Fire Warrior has terrible, terrible melee ability. But his 30" S5 AP5 gun makes up for it, mostly, by letting him kill close combat troops before they reach him. Thus, 6 Fire Warriors will beat 10 Guardsmen, despite the equal points. The Guard will get ripped apart as they move in to charge, and even if the survivors manage to charge, their advantage isn't great enough to turn the tide after taking all those pulse rifle shots.

The tragic fact is, in Warhammer, a unit is not an all-rounder by being jack of all trades, master of none. He can only be an all-rounder by being master of all trades with a big points cost. A unit with no real strengths or weaknesses gets beaten because the enemy can use their strength, be it close combat or shooting, knowing that the enemy cannot take full advantage of their weakness. 10 Tau vs 10 Orks is a much fairer fight, because if even one ork survives to charge, he'll strike first, 3 times, hitting on 2s, wounding on 3s, and he'll generally give the Tau a hard time.

Therefore, my general diagnostic is that the Guard need to get good at one thing or the other. One of their stats needs boosting, their rifle needs a tune up, the bayonet has to become scary. Dropping the Guard to 5 points doesn't solve anything. It just gives the enemy more cannon fodder. Look at conscripts, not worth their 4 points, despite the fact you get half again as many of them as Guard. Bad units only get worse at any points cost. Getting more guys means cutting down your own fields of fire, having more soldiers exposed outside of cover, having to bunch men tighter around officers to get leadership bonuses. In addition, people are going to use these point drops to buy more tanks, not more men, which is exactly the opposite of what Guard need in the new edition. Guard need to get good at something. Taking Guardsmen shouldn't be a chore.

My Solution

I've said this one before, but give Guardsmen BS4 with lasguns (and only lasguns) when not moving. Lasguns are the rifle sort of rapid fire, not the sub-machine gun sort of rapid-fire. In addition, restrict Heavy Weapons to their own squads, but add a mid-range weapon set that work like slightly heavier special weapons. Say, a squad automatic Stub-Machinegun! (18" S4 AP6 Assault3?"), a light rocket-launcher (panzerfaust-ish thing? 18" S7 AP1 Assault1?) or a longer-ranged flamer (Inferno Rifle, functions like an 8" range Inferno Cannon, perhaps) I see the way of using Guard in this manner is moving the guard forward, stopping as enemies approach, and firing till they die before moving forward again. This is optimal for several reasons.

- It's realistic for modern infantry. Moving and firing with Assault Rifles is also known as doing it wrong. If a modern soldier sees an enemy, the proper procedure is hit cover/the dirt, pick a target, and fire until he's dead.
- It is a unique sort of way to encourage the use of static defense as with Guard now, while also providing ability to move and fire still by having new weapons specialized for it.
- Units supporting other units becomes important. One unit can advance, laying down some fire, while another squad in their platoon helps them out by use of supporting fire. Squad tactics in the Imperial Guard? I know, it's scary.
- Unique weapons for the guard seems like a good thing to me. The Guardsmen have earned it, I think.

While, that's my 20 cents.

Anti-Mag wrote:I think Ogryns and Ratlings should be scrapped.

I would like to see more Adeptus Mechanicus troops. These could be robotic servitor-warriors, hulking machines etc. In honesty there is no limit to the scope of AM potential, so I could even see them getting their own codex.

I like Ogryns and Ratlings. They're still human, but larger / smaller. Army-wise, Ogryns are really needed for close-combat punch, but the problem is that the rules don't work to let them do what the Guard need. Ratlings are largely superfluous, being a extra-shooty unit in an excessively-shooty army.

IMO, Ad Mech plays best as Witch Hunters for Arco-Flagellants and Penitent Engines; Storms would work fine as their Standard Troops, while Sisters have good rules as enhanced Troops.

Jarkell wrote:Infact there should be an elite option for special ops/weapons platoons.

I like to have the guards buffed but I prefer if the ordinary guardsman get cheaper (and not be nerfed) so that I get more. Its all about the quantity!!

If GW did to Storms what they did to SM Veterans, that'd be fine by me.

I also agree that I'd like to see more Guard, rather than "better" Guard - I already play Eldar!

open_sketchbook wrote:Without Griffins, the Guard has suffered in close-range indirect, The Exterminator needs to return as well. In addition, things like the Cyclops, heavy mortars and thudd guns need to migrate in from the Death Korps.

Dropping the Guard to 5 points doesn't solve anything.

I've said this one before, but give Guardsmen BS4 with lasguns (and only lasguns) when not moving.
- Unique weapons for the guard seems like a good thing to me. The Guardsmen have earned it, I think.

I agree with the Griffon returning to complement the Hellhound. But the cost needs to be very, very low. Like 50 pts.I also agree with the Exterminator, as it's an easy conversion bitz-wise, and useful rules-wise. Goofy, goofy model though. The DKoK weapons should be common to the Guard, as the Imperium is pretty uniform at the Imperial-mass production level.

I'm really surprised you don't ask for Valkyrie Skimmer Transport as an option to HQ Command, Stormtrooper / Grenadier, and Platoon HQ units. If priced reasonably, these would be help make a statement about mobility. And the model rocks!

Properly recosting Guardsmen by cutting 10+ points per squad and 40+ per Chimera means that the Guard gain a "free" Chimera per platoon, addressing that glaring mobility problem somewhat.

I don't like changing BS on Guardsmen, as Guard should be simple. And bumping their BS simply resets the standard for everybody else. Plus, the *last* thing we need to do is to encourage Guard to be static.

Nobody except Guard uses the flashlight, so the Lasgun really *is* a unique weapon. Probably not what you meant though. I like that the Lasgun is simple, and sets the minimum standard for weapons in 40k.

Oh yeah, with respect to the Bayonet mention, if Guard weren't trained and using them, they'd be down to WS2 S2 in HtH.

I agree in general on the [lack of] effectiveness of Sanctioned Psykers, Ogryn, the Advisor's Rule, and Chimeras.

If I changed one more thing, it'd be to make the Hellgun Assault 3. At the moment it doesn't provide storm troopers with near enough mobility or firepower.

You know, I may catch some flak for what I'm going to say but I'm not entirely sure I'm worried about that. I've been playing guard since the 3rd edition dex, and despite all the whining and complaining about them, I have always, ALWAYS, been able to win the majority of my games using the good old' heart of 40k humanity. The points costs do not need to be changed, they CAN be and I'd be happy with that, but thats not the problem right now. Ogryns and ratlings can stay as far as I'm concerned. I don't exactly like ratlings, but I usually just convert my own snipers and proxy them. same with Ogryns, they're not the cream of the crop as far as I'm concerned, but you can find a way to use them, and they fit fluff wise. The big problem with the last 2 guard codices lies in the latyout and organization of how the thing works. GW needs to stop worrying about Psykers, and techpriests as much as they need to start worrying about (and seems they are) vehicles such as the valkyrie, sepcialised infantry (how about a generic catachan devils squad GW?! Vets just aint cutting it) And heavy weapon platoons that operate differently. Seriously, who needs a regular command squad for that. The only stat change I would make would be to the Officer Corps. A jr officer should have a little more punch forhis price, or have an ability which makes him worth taking. Mine are usually the first to die and thats because they are the power weapon wielding memebers of the unit. Also, keep an army wide skill set. stuff like hardened fighters and Iron Discipline were great, but it wasnt worth a bunch of bland armies thhat everyone was taking. Anyway, here's what I'd like to see, in order of priority:

1) Specified unit skills that cover the entire army - Heres an example, in forfeiting a heavy slot, half the units in the army can infiltrate while the other half sets up normally. It's beneficial to the army and it has a disadvantage, all the while providing character. Imagine it as a recon battalion or something of that nature. this is just one idea.

2) Don't endorse special individual models as much - techpriests, priests, and psykers are fine, but too many people want to play them for one reason or another and it can take from the feel of the army. Make them an 0-1 eltie selection, 1-3 in a group, or a single tech, and leave it at that.

3) Make jr. officers worth taking - either take down the points or put up with stats and abilities

Well, sorry for ranting, let e know what you all think. Happy gaming everyone

A few things I read above:

H.M.B.C- Since Rhinos are dropping again in price 50 points for the Chimera is still way to much. Remember its only a BS 3 vehicle. As I stated earlier to get the cheapest options it cost 80points. I think after the options it should be maybe max 45 points.

Also, Grenade Launchers need to upgraded or free, the problem is compared to the way it is, it just cant compare to the Plasma gun.

I aggree that Sentinal are way overpriced for what they can do.

Open Sketchbook-

There is just no way to give the guardsmen BS4, it cant be the same as marines. Thats why I proposed a varient of the sharpshooter rule to help fix this void.

All-

I think most would aggree that Rough Riders rock but the models are so bad we wont use them. Motorcycles may not be the right option, but just a suggestion. Maybe make it so that they are on bikes and just throw bombs,grenades or something. THe Mogols must go though.

Ogryns and Ratlings are a mixed bag to be honest I would like to see them go and replaced with things like "scout snipers" or similar items. I know many people would like to see them go.

wasserrj wrote:You know, I may catch some flak for what I'm going to say but I'm not entirely sure I'm worried about that. I've been playing guard since the 3rd edition dex, and despite all the whining and complaining about them, I have always, ALWAYS, been able to win the majority of my games using the good old' heart of 40k humanity.

I've been playing Guard since their 2nd Ed Codex came out, and, like you, I've never really had any issue stomping on my opponents regardless of what Codex I'm using. It doesn't mean there aren't things that are very wrong with the book.

wasserrj wrote:The points costs do not need to be changed, they CAN be and I'd be happy with that, but thats not the problem right now.

Yes, points costs are a problem. Chimeras are terribly overcosted. Special/Heavy weapon options are overcosted. Storm Troopers (when upgraded) are overcosted. Tech-Priests are overcosted.

wasserrj wrote:Ogryns and ratlings can stay as far as I'm concerned ... same with Ogryns, they're not the cream of the crop as far as I'm concerned, but you can find a way to use them, and they fit fluff wise.

Not all units in 40K are created equal. It doesn't matter if you can 'find a way to use them', Ogryns are junk. Period.

wasserrj wrote:infantry (how about a generic catachan devils squad GW?! Vets just aint cutting it)

H-Vets are one of the better choices in the list.

wasserrj wrote:Mine are usually the first to die and thats because they are the power weapon wielding memebers of the unit.

You waste points on power weapons? You must have a low grade of competition in your area.

BYE

open_sketchbook wrote:I've said this one before, but give Guardsmen BS4 with lasguns (and only lasguns) when not moving.

That doesn't solve anything. Guard players don't use their Lasguns unless they have to. They're target of opportunity weapons only. And adding in the 'while not moving' makes little sense as well, as the only time BS4 lasguns might be useful is when you're storming forward to take an objective.

Guardsmen are not worth as much as a Slugga/Shoota boy. Not a chance.

BYE

broxus wrote:H.M.B.C- Since Rhinos are dropping again in price 50 points for the Chimera is still way to much. Remember its only a BS 3 vehicle. As I stated earlier to get the cheapest options it cost 80points. I think after the options it should be maybe max 45 points.

45 points w/Multi-Laser and Heavy Bolter? No.

Stop comparing it to the Rhino. Chimeras are not APCs. They are IFVs, like the Razorback. 60-65 points is about right for a BS3 AV12/11/10 transport with one access point. The better armour and the fact that it fires twice as many shots compares well with the BS4 Twin-Link'ed-ness of the Razorback.

broxus wrote:Also, Grenade Launchers need to upgraded or free, the problem is compared to the way it is, it just cant compare to the Plasma gun.

Then you make the Grenade Launcher better, you don't make it free. Make it Assault 36".

broxus wrote:I think most would aggree that Rough Riders rock but the models are so bad we wont use them. Motorcycles may not be the right option, but just a suggestion. Maybe make it so that they are on bikes and just throw bombs,grenades or something. THe Mogols must go though.

When if they were on some sort of Xenos mount? Not necesarily Cold Ones, but some sort of lizard or giant flightless bird or something.

BYE

Fair enough overview on my posting man. To the contrary though, my area always has had a decent level of play. I just find for that the 6 points I spend on a las pistol and power weapon, possibly carapace goes a long way when the metal hits the meat and you're forced into CC. I'd agree with Chimera's I guess, but storm troopers are a toss up I'd say. They work just fine to me and I don't feel overcharged so that one is up in the air. Heavy weapons, again, are up for debate. the vets were an opinion though, flat out. I just personally feel like the guard deserves more of a Catachan Devil hardened vet unit, complete with the ambush ability. I guess I feel that way because I think that unit should be the real "character" of the army. The unit with the "Sgt. Elias'" and "Sgt barnes'" type guys.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

broxus wrote:H.M.B.C- Since Rhinos are dropping again in price 50 points for the Chimera is still way to much. Remember its only a BS 3 vehicle. As I stated earlier to get the cheapest options it cost 80points. I think after the options it should be maybe max 45 points.

45 points w/Multi-Laser and Heavy Bolter? No.

Stop comparing it to the Rhino. Chimeras are not APCs. They are IFVs, like the Razorback. 60-65 points is about right for a BS3 AV12/11/10 transport with one access point. The better armour and the fact that it fires twice as many shots compares well with the BS4 Twin-Link'ed-ness of the Razorback.

broxus wrote:Also, Grenade Launchers need to upgraded or free, the problem is compared to the way it is, it just cant compare to the Plasma gun.

Then you make the Grenade Launcher better, you don't make it free. Make it Assault 36".

broxus wrote:I think most would aggree that Rough Riders rock but the models are so bad we wont use them. Motorcycles may not be the right option, but just a suggestion. Maybe make it so that they are on bikes and just throw bombs,grenades or something. THe Mogols must go though.

When if they were on some sort of Xenos mount? Not necesarily Cold Ones, but some sort of lizard or giant flightless bird or something.

BYE

Sir your forgetting a few things, firstly that Razorback is a twinlinked BS4 weapon system. It is also dropping in price in the new SM codex. I think 45 points for the Chimera is more than fair. If it comes down to it make the base Chimera cost 35pts and make the sponson/hull upgrades optional. With the new vehcile rules in 5th all those jazzy weapons become pretty usless if using it as a transport.

As far as grenade launchers go people still wouldnt take them if their are assault 36. It should be something like 10pts = to the plasma, 24" range with the option of frag s4 AP5 template or krak S6 AP3 single target. THen people would consider using it. I think grenade launchers are more fluffy for the army also. It would help give them a unique feel and play style.

I dont know what to add other than this debackle....


Kangeroo calvary 13 pts per model


Ws/Bs/S/T/W/I/Ld/Sv
3 4 4 3 2 1 9 3+

weapons:lasgun
lasguns make be upgraded to move and fire heavy stubers for 5pts for reduced range of 24" but gaines asult.

special rules:
Hey Skip! due to the precarious movement of the roos the jetpack rules may be used on a 2+ , however on a 1 the kangeros go berserk and use the rage rule.

The imperial guard need a ANZAC division!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

broxus wrote:Also, Grenade Launchers need to upgraded or free, the problem is compared to the way it is, it just cant compare to the Plasma gun.

Then you make the Grenade Launcher better, you don't make it free. Make it Assault 36".

BYE

Why 1 shot at 36" ?

change to:
24" 6/4 assault 1 = 1shot against mid armor enemy as it is (moving possible)
24" 3/6 heavy 2,blast = 2 shot against horde (needs time to aim correct)

I think two shots help,to hit at 4+


Ogryn:

change Toughness to 6 => survive against ID
give em special rule fearless => to loyal/big to run away

1hadhq wrote:change Toughness to 6 => survive against ID
give em special rule fearless => to loyal/big to run away

So... tougher than Oblits, Terminators, Wraithguard and, unlike Marines, won't run away?

No. Ogryn are not that tough.

The problem with Ogryn actually stems from other units. Other 'tough' units, like Terminators, simply aren't. A T4 W1 model is not tough - doesn't matter if he has a 2+ save. Terminators need to be better so that things like Ogryns can be balanced correctly, otherwise you end up with Ogryn units that are more durable than even Nurgle Terminators - and that doesn't make any sense at all.

BYE

broxus wrote:Sir your forgetting a few things, firstly that Razorback is a twinlinked BS4 weapon system. It is also dropping in price in the new SM codex.

1. As I already said, 6 shots at BS3 = 3 shots at BS4. They're both probably gonna hit with 3 shots. Stop over-estimating the BS4.
2. Dropping in price to what it is in the current Dark Angel and Blood Angel Codices, which is around 50 points.

Making the Chimera, which is a better tank than the Razorback, cost less points just because its BS3, makes no sense at all. Especially if you up its armour to AV12/11/10 (which it needs more than anything). It's a 65 point vehicle. Not a 45 point vehicle.

broxus wrote:If it comes down to it make the base Chimera cost 35pts and make the sponson/hull upgrades optional. With the new vehcile rules in 5th all those jazzy weapons become pretty usless if using it as a transport.

Chimeras lend fire to the gunline. They don't move unless they have to. Stop thinking of them as ACPs, 'cause they're not APCs.

broxus wrote:As far as grenade launchers go people still wouldnt take them if their are assault 36. It should be something like 10pts = to the plasma, 24" range with the option of frag s4 AP5 template or krak S6 AP3 single target. THen people would consider using it. I think grenade launchers are more fluffy for the army also. It would help give them a unique feel and play style.

Think is the Plasma's not worth 10 points on a Guardsman. It's worth 8. So the Grenade Launcher either has to be worth 8 points and be as good as the Plasma Gun (which is pointless, as why have two weapons that do the same thing for the same cost?), or cheap enough and good enough to exist as an alternative (like the Flamer current does - as it does nothing the Plasma Gun can do and vice versa). The suggestion above me is good, but I don't think it goes far enough. Firstly a range increase to 36" suddenly makes it a very different weapon. Now squads with Heavy Bolters have something else to add to their Anti-Infantry firepower. The S6 AP3 could work, but it is stepping on the Plasma Gun's toes, although with a 36" range, again, it could have its use. Multiple shots with a blast marker could work as well.

Now, you can't have all of these things rolled into a 5 point upgrade, and, as I said, if it's 8 points or anywhere close to the Plasma Gun, the general utility of the Plasma Gun will win out every time.

5 points. R36 S3 AP- Assault 2/Blast ---or--- R36 S6 AP4 Assault 2.

If you don't breach that AP3 threshold, its price can stay low. The 2 shots for the blast gives it a bit more clout (and makes up for the uber-nerfing they got in the 5th Ed rules), and the range makes it a threat long before other special weapons have entered into the equasion. And it's intentionally cheap to make it competative.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

broxus wrote:Sir your forgetting a few things, firstly that Razorback is a twinlinked BS4 weapon system. It is also dropping in price in the new SM codex.

1. As I already said, 6 shots at BS3 = 3 shots at BS4. They're both probably gonna hit with 3 shots. Stop over-estimating the BS4.
2. Dropping in price to what it is in the current Dark Angel and Blood Angel Codices, which is around 50 points.

Making the Chimera, which is a better tank than the Razorback, cost less points just because its BS3, makes no sense at all. Especially if you up its armour to AV12/11/10 (which it needs more than anything). It's a 65 point vehicle. Not a 45 point vehicle.

broxus wrote:If it comes down to it make the base Chimera cost 35pts and make the sponson/hull upgrades optional. With the new vehcile rules in 5th all those jazzy weapons become pretty usless if using it as a transport.

Chimeras lend fire to the gunline. They don't move unless they have to. Stop thinking of them as ACPs, 'cause they're not APCs.

broxus wrote:As far as grenade launchers go people still wouldnt take them if their are assault 36. It should be something like 10pts = to the plasma, 24" range with the option of frag s4 AP5 template or krak S6 AP3 single target. THen people would consider using it. I think grenade launchers are more fluffy for the army also. It would help give them a unique feel and play style.

Think is the Plasma's not worth 10 points on a Guardsman. It's worth 8. So the Grenade Launcher either has to be worth 8 points and be as good as the Plasma Gun (which is pointless, as why have two weapons that do the same thing for the same cost?), or cheap enough and good enough to exist as an alternative (like the Flamer current does - as it does nothing the Plasma Gun can do and vice versa). The suggestion above me is good, but I don't think it goes far enough. Firstly a range increase to 36" suddenly makes it a very different weapon. Now squads with Heavy Bolters have something else to add to their Anti-Infantry firepower. The S6 AP3 could work, but it is stepping on the Plasma Gun's toes, although with a 36" range, again, it could have its use. Multiple shots with a blast marker could work as well.

Now, you can't have all of these things rolled into a 5 point upgrade, and, as I said, if it's 8 points or anywhere close to the Plasma Gun, the general utility of the Plasma Gun will win out every time.

5 points. R36 S3 AP- Assault 2/Blast ---or--- R36 S6 AP4 Assault 2.

If you don't breach that AP3 threshold, its price can stay low. The 2 shots for the blast gives it a bit more clout (and makes up for the uber-nerfing they got in the 5th Ed rules), and the range makes it a threat long before other special weapons have entered into the equasion. And it's intentionally cheap to make it competative.

BYE

I have to say for almost everything I strongly disagree with you.

Since you’re so dead set on making Chimeras mobile fire bases then there needs to be an give IG troop transport. Honestly, it silly to think that it’s worth it to place any IG squad into a vehicle that cant shoot often and costs the same as the squad inside.

What you also fail to realize is that you can put a whole lot of whoopass into a Razorback or Rhino. In a Chimera let’s face it nothing that scary is going to go inside of it. A transport for the SM costs less than 30% of the squad. If you make the Chimera 65 points its almost 100%+ of the most important scoring units in the game troops..

You’re not looking at this transport in the big picture at all and fail to realize it is the only guard option available. What makes it even worse is that in 5th edition armies need to have more mobility for troops to become scoring units. With your 65pt model you will doom IG to be the static slow gun line that is ineffective for securing objectives. Your still thinking 4th edition when I could maybe aggree with you.

In regards to comparing it to a Rhino vs a Razorback you are wrong also. Sure it has guns but it’s designed to carry 12 troops not 7 like the razorback. The Razorback is a limited use vehicle for transportation of small command squads and fire support. The Chimera carries 12 passengers and is the only transportation option other than Deep Striking. Also with the Razorback don’t forget you get a BS 4 TWINLINKED weapon platform that can move up to 6” and get its full effective fire. You move the Chimera 1” it already becomes less than 50% as effective as that Razorback that moved. The BS3 is a big deal, that’s why our tanks are all so cheap compared to others.

The IG don’t need another fire support platform we have Russes, HW teams, Hell hounds, Sentinels, ect to fill that role why would anyone buy an overpriced transport for it. Instead they need mobility!!

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As far as the grenade launcher goes, if you make it 36" you still have a weapon that no one will use. With the amount of marine players out there everyone will still take the good ole plasma gun that is STR7 AP2.

A plasma gun can even kill terminators and Rapid Fire. Your version of the weapon can’t compare to that sorry. The IG have plenty of long range weapons, what we need is the short to mid range stuff that kills those marines when they are right in front of us ready to assault. This is even more the case in 5th edition since everyone can run, range isnt as important stuff needs to die faster because its on us by turn 2

My version of the grenade launcher isn’t Rapid fire and wont kill terminators but is still capable of killing a marine that are setting in the open with STR6 AP3 and its also flexible enough to be useful against horde armies. This would leave it somewhere in the middle of a Plasmagun great for killing Power armor troops and a flamer great at killing horde armies. That’s about the perfect place it needs to be. Special weapons are about the close up fight not the long range fights. That’s what our HW are for. We need those special weapons for OMG they deep striked that squad right next to me and it needs to die NOW!

A lot of your previous ideas I liked but the two in regards to this simply wont change anything and I think you should relook your solutions to them.

Thought I would help clarify my point more.

With the changes to scoring units being the only ones that can take objectives mobility is more important than ever. Troops for IG consist of a cheap infantry squad so it needs a compareable transport.

To Compare:

A SM tactical squad can take a Rhino which in the next dex will cost 40ish points. This transport is approx 25% of the cost of the unit riding in it making it a points effective option to move troops around.

A IG squad can take a Chimera which cost 80points currently with weapons. This transport is approx 125% of the cost of the unit riding in it making it a piss poor option to move troops around.

Do you see the point Im making?? For the points % its almost the same as every SM tactical squad having only the land raider as a transportation option.

So though many people would say a LR is a great vehicle most everyone would aggree that in the role of strictly tranport its stupid to buy it for just a tactical squad. Its best reserved for something more pricey such as Terminators or Command squads that need extra protection.

Mostly, this post is about the IG Chimera, and what I like to think it *should* be for 5th Edition...

In general, I agree with broxus that the price needs to be a lot lower, and err on the low side, rather than the high side.

I think most of us can agree that the Chimera is generally comparable to the basic Razorback:
- Razorback: BS4 AV 11/11/10 Tank - Transport 6 w/ twin-HB = 50 pts.
- Chimera: BS3 AV 12/10/10 Tank - Amphibious Transport 12 w/ Multi-Laser & HB = 85 pts.
Amphibious is extra rules, not especially useful
AV10 sides dramatically reduce survivability
Dual weapons are non-Defensive, so less useful

Stat-wise, what I'd like to see for 5th Edition is more like this:
- Chimera: BS3 AV 12/11/10 Tank - Transport 12 w/ Multi-Laser & HB

But what should it cost?

Special Rules
- removal of Amphibious means none for either
NO adjustment, as nothing to adjust.

Transport
- Razorback 6 is clearly fewer than Chimera 12
- Razorback carries T4 Sv3+ MEQs
- Chimera carries T3 Sv5+ GEQs or (at best) Storms / Ogryns
NO adjustment is needed here; possible argument for points reduction...

Weapons
- static twin-BS4 is marginally worse than dual BS3
- moving twin-BS4 is nearly twice as good as dual BS3
- 2nd weapon is nearly worthless in most non-shooting tactical situations
- Razorback also has *much* stronger weapons options, where Chimera merely has *more* options.
Chimera is clearly inferior, deserving nominal cost reduction of -5 pts value

Armor
- Razorback 11/11 is worse than Chimera 12/11
Front is good for static use, but large sides are exposed if used as Transport
Chimera is worth no more than +5 pts more for having better armor, but given that it protects Guardsmen and poor weapons, NO adjustment here, either.


So on net, I come up with a price of 45 pts.


It seems low, particularly compared to the overpriced poo that the IG are currently stuck with. But within an army composed of squads worth 85 pts (50 IG +25 Las +10 Plas), 45 pts isn't unreasonable. Indeed, the Chimera could go as low as 40 pts when you compare with how little SM pay for their Transport.

broxus wrote:Since you’re so dead set on making Chimeras mobile fire...

Oh FFS... I'm not.

They are tanks. They should be sitting still in cover shooting with their guns. Not moving around. And they can't be a mobile firebase anyway now because the rules forbid it.

broxus wrote:What you also fail to realize is that you can put a whole lot of whoopass into a Razorback or Rhino.

Which has nothing to do with this discussion.

broxus wrote:In a Chimera let’s face it nothing that scary is going to go inside of it.

That's great. I don't disagree. The only time anything goes inside a Chimera is when it needs to get somewhere fast, and that's usually to claim objectives and that's usually late game. Until then, they're light tanks, and should act as such.

broxus wrote:A transport for the SM costs less than 30% of the squad. If you make the Chimera 65 points its almost 100%+ of the most important scoring units in the game troops..

So? It's worth about a squad of Guardsmen, especially if you stick it in 4+ cover.

broxus wrote:You’re not looking at this transport in the big picture at all and fail to realize it is the only guard option available. What makes it even worse is that in 5th edition armies need to have more mobility for troops to become scoring units. With your 65pt model you will doom IG to be the static slow gun line that is ineffective for securing objectives. Your still thinking 4th edition when I could maybe aggree with you.

Nonsense. It's 20 points less and more armoured than the current version. It's a very good deal.

broxus wrote:In regards to comparing it to a Rhino vs a Razorback you are wrong also.

No, I'm 100% correct. You're ignoring the role that these vehicles play.

A Rhino does one thing. It only ever does one thing. It transports troops and it does nothing else because it can't do anything else.

Chimers and Razorbacks are IFV's. They transport troops and they support the troops with their own heavier guns. That is why you compare them. Transport capacity has very little to do with it - it's the role they play that is important.

broxus wrote:Also with the Razorback don’t forget you get a BS 4 TWINLINKED weapon platform that can move up to 6” and get its full effective fire. You move the Chimera 1” it already becomes less than 50% as effective as that Razorback that moved.

Oh would you get over the twin-linking. As I said, 6 shots vs 3 shots will mean both sides get three hits, the Guard because they'll hit with 50% of them, and the Marines will hit with 66% on the first go around, and they'll probably get that 3rd one on the second go around. It's the same amount of firepower.

You're right about the movement thing, but as I said - they shouldn't be moving in the first place, unless they have to in order to get troops into position. If they're sitting still in cover (something all tanks in 5th should be doing, as there's no reason not to), then they can always shoot.

broxus wrote:The IG don’t need another fire support platform we have Russes, HW teams, Hell hounds, Sentinels, ect to fill that role why would anyone buy an overpriced transport for it. Instead they need mobility!!

You don't know much about Guard do you? How long have you been playing MechInf?

Chimeras are part of the gunline. Always have been. They are the units that fill the role of infantry killers in a MechInf army, whereas the squads (with their Lascannons), fill the anti-tank role.

Tanks kill infantry.
Infantry kill tanks.

It's one of the oldest edicts that governs the Imperial Guard.

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broxus wrote:As far as the grenade launcher goes, if you make it 36" you still have a weapon that no one will use. With the amount of marine players out there everyone will still take the good ole plasma gun that is STR7 AP2.

But making the Grenade Launcher free won't change that.


BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:Mostly, this post is about the IG Chimera, and what I like to think it *should* be for 5th Edition...

In general, I agree with broxus that the price needs to be a lot lower, and err on the low side, rather than the high side.

I think most of us can agree that the Chimera is generally comparable to the basic Razorback:
- Razorback: BS4 AV 11/11/10 Tank - Transport 6 w/ twin-HB = 50 pts.
- Chimera: BS3 AV 12/10/10 Tank - Amphibious Transport 12 w/ Multi-Laser & HB = 85 pts.
Amphibious is extra rules, not especially useful
AV10 sides dramatically reduce survivability
Dual weapons are non-Defensive, so less useful

Stat-wise, what I'd like to see for 5th Edition is more like this:
- Chimera: BS3 AV 12/11/10 Tank - Transport 12 w/ Multi-Laser & HB

But what should it cost?

Special Rules
- removal of Amphibious means none for either
NO adjustment, as nothing to adjust.

Transport
- Razorback 6 is clearly fewer than Chimera 12
- Razorback carries T4 Sv3+ MEQs
- Chimera carries T3 Sv5+ GEQs or (at best) Storms / Ogryns
NO adjustment is needed here; possible argument for points reduction...

Weapons
- static twin-BS4 is marginally worse than dual BS3
- moving twin-BS4 is nearly twice as good as dual BS3
- 2nd weapon is nearly worthless in most non-shooting tactical situations
- Razorback also has *much* stronger weapons options, where Chimera merely has *more* options.
Chimera is clearly inferior, deserving nominal cost reduction of -5 pts value

Armor
- Razorback 11/11 is worse than Chimera 12/11
Front is good for static use, but large sides are exposed if used as Transport
Chimera is worth no more than +5 pts more for having better armor, but given that it protects Guardsmen and poor weapons, NO adjustment here, either.


So on net, I come up with a price of 45 pts.


It seems low, particularly compared to the overpriced poo that the IG are currently stuck with. But within an army composed of squads worth 85 pts (50 IG +25 Las +10 Plas), 45 pts isn't unreasonable. Indeed, the Chimera could go as low as 40 pts when you compare with how little SM pay for their Transport.

Yep 45pts is what I came up with also.

HBMC, I guess we will have to aggree to disagree the guard need a transport so as long the Chimera as its the only option we have then well we are screwed for mobility under your scenerio. If you look at my points % compairson they you will get what I'm saying. Maybe the Valkrye will be a cheap transport option and they can leave the Chimera as a IFV like you want. Still no one will take it but shrug ok.

45pts is a fair price to pay for it.

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In regards to the grenade launcher ok dont make it free i guess but I still like my version much more than an assault 2 36" range weapon. Unless it can remove an armor save from SM then no one is going to seriously use it over plasma.

Thanks