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I propose giving Warp Spiders rending as they wield similar weapons to Harlequins and it fits the fluff of their weapons finding that one little chink in the armor. Given the nerfs to rending I don't think it would over power them that much if at all.

I remember seeing warp spider squads shredding apart my combat squadded marines, then jumping again and disappearing. What happened to them in 5th that really warrants any kind of change?

I totally agree that warp spiders should have a rendering rule, and in the same token so should the shadow weaver, maybe increase it from blast to large blast and heavy 2 or 3 due to the nature of the gun.

I disagree. their gun is only effective against infantry in the fluff. To give them rending would allow them to hunt tanks.

Harlequins should have never been given rending. It is a complete reversal of what they were in 2nd and in their CJ trial rules. Harlequin kisses used to wound on a 2+ and insta-kill on a 6 – now they're genestealer claws. A unique and creative weapon steamrolled for gaming convenience.

I think warp spiders should be given back their templates. This seems to be a little powerful, but GWS already did this with flamers of Tzeentch and they have a much more threatening template weapon.

Grunt beat me to it, but I'd give them back templates as well - maybe S4 AP4.

Darkness wrote:I disagree. their gun is only effective against infantry in the fluff. To give them rending would allow them to hunt tanks.

What about the shadow weaver? it has a range of 48" and yet it only uses a small blast template and is weak and likely to totally miss it's target with is not right for this lovely weapon.

the shadow weaver needs fixing for sure. I feel it should work like the Hellhound's inferno cannon

Salvation122 wrote:Grunt beat me to it, but I'd give them back templates as well - maybe S4 AP4.

I would rather go with S6 Ap- or even: wounds on a 2+ AP-. That keeps them in line with the fluff while providing them a unique weapon.

Personally I'd like to see:

Veil of Tears like power. Due to there main roll of lying in wait to ambush an opponent, I'd love to see them gain a stealth factor (much like shadowseer, tau stealth suits etc). I think with LOS opened up how it is in 5th spiders would benefit a huge amount.

Weapons wise I'd love to see them be given AP6 that way they would have a chance to glance armor 12. Then again this might go against the proposed role...

Warp Spiders are fine the way they are. They never disappoint me.

DonkeyCannon wrote:Warp Spiders are fine the way they are. They never disappoint me.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/216284.page#355783

Personally I think they've took a huge loss in usefulness in 5th Ed. It's a combination of many factors:

-No longer scoring.
-LOS blocking is harder to do (best used when hiding in wait and reacting to an opponent).
-AP Dash weapons are weaker Vs Vehicles.
-Have to roll to Hit & Run.
-Melee is very decisive (less chance of the old trick of shooting, assault and disengage when it's your opponents assault phase)
-Difficult terrain (area/ruins) are dangerous to Jump Troops.

All these factor add up to what imo is them being over priced and not worth taking nearly as much as they previously were.

I'm not saying they need a major overhaul, just a few minor tweaks to not make them not be a waste of points.

-Jara

PS: Hell even an ability say Spatial Acuity that makes it so difficult terrain is not dangerous for them would be in flavor imo.

PPS: The only thing that Spiders gain in 5th ED is that troop choice/numbers are greater and they're an okay unit or killing unarmored troops (but imo due to their limited range, this forces them to be more of a backup/response unit still)

+4 invunerable save if they don't use their second jump. Think the marine with the heavy bolter shooting the warp spider in the DoW2 trailer, and you'll see why I say this.

Warp Spiders are fine, they are just boring, imo.

Autarch + Shining Spears > Autarch + Warp Spiders, where is where they lose out. That, and S6 shooting is otherwise common.

I bet they will get exciting rules, new models and OMGZ!!! maybe even a Pheonix Lord when the codex is redone ... in the distant future.

Asked to comment....

Warp Spiders aren't any good in standard builds.

Who needs S6 when Eldar have it in Spades?

Who needs to kill enemies at 12" with S6 when you can have S4 with re-rolls (and AP value!) off DA with doom support.

Or 48" with Dark reapers.

Nothing blocks LOS to them, and T3 marines die rapidly.

They compete against Fire Dragons, Harlequins, and just aren't as good as either of those units.

They should never ever get templates back. Not unless they are S2 AP- templates, then by all means go ahead. I remember the old template spiders, they were horrific and are better off left in the past.

They'll never get a Phoenix Lord.

They got assault 2, it's as good as the unit is ever going to get.

Shadow weavers are awesome. Run 9 of them, get back to us with how bad they are.

Best use of Spiders is via deep strike.

While I don't fear them, you CAN build a army entirely around them if you so choose. It doesn't appear effective on it's face, but it is since no one will expect it.

Why do Warp Spiders need Rending?

They are already Jump Infantry that get a second potential move (and with the new FAQ, get to move in *BOTH* assault phases) with a 3+ save, are I5, can Deep Strike, and have S6 basic guns, can Hit and Run, and can have a BS5 exarch with 4 S6 shots and 2x powerweapons at I6, and they all have Assault weapons.

Warp Spiders as is are amazing units, a bit short ranged, but excellent nonetheless. Given their sheer volume of fire coupled with their S6 weaponry and ability to finish off anything in CC that they didn't kill in shooting and then get out of the way, there is little that they really need Rending to take down.

I plan on running two squads of 8 in my Eldar army as soon as I finish building it.



Why does everyone think Rending is the answer to everything also?

Here you go, a list I'd not be too happy to see.

Max Spiders.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/216693.page

Here’s a weird idea,

When shooting measure all the warp spiders in the 12” range from the enemy unit and using the chart below roll for all the models in the targeted unit.

1-2 warp spiders in range: model hit on 6
3-4 warp spiders in range: model hit on 5
5-6 warp spiders in range: model hit on 4
7-8 warp spiders in range: model hit on 3
9-10+ warp spiders in range: model hit on 2

Have the exarch with the two spinners count as two models.

edit - the weapons would remain strength 6 AP -

I stole this idea in part from the chapter approved zealots’ flame attachments in WD. I think it suits the warp spiders as it represents them forming a web around their prey. Seems powerful on large groups of infantry but really tones down their ability to tank hunt – plus I am all for adding uniqueness to a unit.

Salvation122 wrote:Grunt beat me to it, but I'd give them back templates as well - maybe S4 AP4.

I was thinking more along the lines of S3 AP6. Makes them ineffective agasint heavily armored targets but make them death on a jump generator for hordes. Making them S4 would be a bit too far over the top and AP4 is just way too good. Of course, you'd have to cut the max squad size down to 5 or 6 or something like that so they don't get out of hand.

That or if you want the simple solution, just drop their point cost by a few points. I just think they are too expensive for what they do and I'd really like to see them go back to beind horde killers rather than vehicle hunters like in 4th or...well whatever they are now.

Stelek wrote:

They should never ever get templates back. Not unless they are S2 AP- templates, then by all means go ahead. I remember the old template spiders, they were horrific and are better off left in the past.

Amen. One of the most broken weapons in the history of the game.

kid_happy wrote:

Stelek wrote:

They should never ever get templates back. Not unless they are S2 AP- templates, then by all means go ahead. I remember the old template spiders, they were horrific and are better off left in the past.

Amen. One of the most broken weapons in the history of the game.

Only against light infantry. Go back to 2nd edition rules and try using them against terminators (the only marines other than devistators that ever showed up on the field) and see how they do.

Or you could revisit the 2nd or 4th edition versions of the assault cannon. Ummm 3 sustained fire dice worth of krak missiles...yummy.

Regardless, giving them templates now would make them very powerful so either the template would need to be weak or their point cost would need to be adjusted to compensate.

With SF dice, more is better for the enemy - Jam, Jam, Jam!

Giving them Templates would be powerful, but then, recall that 2E had them using the huge Heavy Flamer template.

Phoenix wrote:

Only against light infantry. Go back to 2nd edition rules and try using them against terminators (the only marines other than devistators that ever showed up on the field) and see how they do.

lol. Well, *anything* with a 3+ save on 2d6 is formidable. I ran Squat exo-armour and I feared blowing up in a rhino more than most weapons....

They need something and if not templates, go for ap, give them ap 3.

AP runs counter to the weapon type. Perhaps just give each gun D3 shots. That seems rational.

open_sketchbook wrote:AP runs counter to the weapon type. Perhaps just give each gun D3 shots. That seems rational.

i think that D6 would be more reasonable due to that it has 2 shot already and the fluff behind the gun says that it shoots a net of wire over the enemy, enough for atleast 3 men