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Stay with me here, folks. This is a longish post...

I've been wargaming a long time and own alot of old, OOP, and collectable models. In fact in many cases I prefer these older sculpts to the items being produced by GW today. Anyway, far and away the crown jewel in my collection has to be my Space Slann army. I've owned a few original Space Slann models over the years, but nothing even close to an army sized selection. However a few years ago, I scored big time. A friend who was moving cleaned out his storage shed and sold off much of his collection. Amongst these was a large number of RT Space Slann models. Apparently back during the short period of time during which they were available he bought two full "sleaves" of Slann blisters with the intent of building an army. Well of course the Slann were never fleshed out correctly as an army by GW, he lost interest in the project, and the box of half painted models were stored away and forgotten.
Knowing my love for old and exotic RT models he sold the lot to me for a pitance....that is to say the overall price I payed was less than the original lead would have cost him circa 1990 or so when he bought them.

The original owner was not much of painter, so I had alot of work ahead of me in stripping down the figures. But in the end, combined with the handful of Slann I already owned, I have almost 100 Space Slann figures from the original 12 poses that were released for RT. To this add about 30 or fantasy Slann figures from the late "C series" that I converted with 40k guns and the like and you have enough models to run just about any army I like. In many ways it's the perfect proxy army as I can and have run it with the rules for just about any 40k army without anyone batting an eye. it's also probably the most valuable army I own as original Space Slann figures on the rare occasions they show up on Ebay go for between 25-35$US a piece depending on the pose. (do the math on that..it's probably worth more than a Forgeworld army). I also take alot of pride in the fact that it's a totally unique army. I also own a sizable Squat army, but have seen a good number of those over the years. However I have NEVER seen another Space Slann army, let alone one made of original poses. I have every reason to believe that it's totally unique.

Ok, enough background...

The problem is that there were only 12 poses released and all of these were armed with rifle or pistol type weapons.
http://www.solegends.com/citrt/tsf18spaceslann.htm
No poses for heavy or special weapons existed. The original owner had converted a couple of the SPace Slann figures to hold heavy weapons and I had jury rigged up a couple of flamer armed models using fantasy figures. But to run most army options I needed alot more. I had more than enough figures to play with, but was not about to chop up 30$ rare models up for conversions.

Here is were the recasting part comes in.
One of the guys in my local gaming group has a small jewelry centerfuge casting machine and is a skilled minitaure caster. Although he would never dream of selling recast miniatures, he does extensively cast old figures for his own personal use. He is also willing to help friends out with casting projects for the cost of materials. Well, this was the answer to the problem I was having with the lack of weapon options in the Slann army. We put several of the unpainted Slann models on mold and before long you would have thought we had the frogs in a pond of water, spawning!
Using the apropriate heavy and special weapons, I converted up a couple of master models which were then also placed on mold. Now I have acess to a pretty much unlimited number of special and heavy weapon models and it only cost me the price of the materials (a bag of shotgun pellets as casting metal and mold rubber) and my time and labor. (for those who have not experienced it, casting is labor intensive work. It's hot and messy. i would hate to do it for a living or actually try to make money from it as some of the rogue recasters did on Ebay a few years back)

So what do you lot think of this?
I have no plans of selling the army any time soon, and if I ever did I would keep or destroy the recast items. The IP being "infringed upon" is long OOP stuff that GW has long since made their last dime from. The only group negatively effected in this case would be the citadel miniatures collector's community, but even that is a non-issue if the recast models never make it into circulation.

I'm not looking for permission or validation here. (why would I seek that from a bunch of strangers anyway?) I've already done this, and as a rule of thumb if you see a rare OOP figure that has been converted in my collection (a rare sight truth be told as I don't do alot of converting) it's not an orginal casting. I'm just curious what the general feelings on this issue are.

TR

If it's for conversions and that, then it's understandable. These models aren't exactly replaceable if you botch it or don't like it, and it's not as if they are currently available.

And their limited nature means if you are after a complete army, it's exceedingly difficult to do so without recasting.

Is still naughty though.

And their limited nature means if you are after a complete army, it's exceedingly difficult to do so without recasting.

I already have the complete army. It's just weapon options that I needed.
Like I said, problem solved.

Is still naughty though.

Probably. The jury is still out on the legality of casting miniatures for personal use and it really depends on who you ask. Personally, I place it in the same catagory as illegally dubbing video tapes: ie technically a no-no but a very minor issue. In any event it's an almost uninforceable rule. Can you spot good qaulity recasts after they have been painted and based? Neither can I.

TR

You can with Lead and White Metal. Bends differently, and White Metal sort, crackles, for want of a better term when you do so.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:You can with Lead and White Metal. Bends differently, and White Metal sort, crackles, for want of a better term when you do so.

Two points:
-Note I said "after being painted and based". The above test would require tugging someone's painted models to the point of bending them. I doubt even you would do that, do.
-The original Slann poses were made prior to the change over from a lead alloy to a pewter based one. Thus the feel of recasts made from shotgun pellets is almost indentical to original figures. I have a couple of Slann models that were aparently bought via GW's archive service before they stopped carrying the whole RT range circa 1999 or so that are cast from white metal. But these are the exception rather than the rule and 99% of all Slann figures I have seen are lead casts.

But your point is fairly valid. Note I also said "good quality". I am able to spot models from the infamous Ebay rogue reacaster "Mac-Ace" ( a guy who over a couple of years sold literally thousands of OOP 40k figures before Ebay pulled the plug on him) due to their poor quality and very soft metal...probably a result from him using a pour or "drop" casting method rather than a centerfuge machine.

TR

Trench-Raider wrote:

Probably. The jury is still out on the legality of casting miniatures for personal use and it really depends on who you ask. Personally, I place it in the same catagory as illegally dubbing video tapes: ie technically a no-no but a very minor issue. In any event it's an almost uninforceable rule. Can you spot good qaulity recasts after they have been painted and based? Neither can I.

TR

It's really not a case of the jury not being out, it's just that there is virtually no benefit to GW suing a person whose making a small amount of copies for personal use. IP law is complicated in practice, but the theory is amazingly simple. Are you making a copy of another person's work without their permission? If the answer is yes, then you are in violation of Federal law, full stop. The owner does not need to show damages, you do not need to sell them, etc. Of course, it's also illegal to go over the speed limit on the PA turnpike, but I've never seen anybody pulled over on that stretch of road. You will most likely never get caught, and if you are, you will most likely only get a Cease and desist letter. But don't try to convince yourself that it's not illegal.

Now, if you're asking about morality, or what I would think about you doing it? Well, copyrights exist for a reason: to protect IP and make sure that creative types profit from their ideas. It's not like you can buy more Slaan, or any of the type you want/need. Personally, I'd rather see you cast up seperate heavy weapons like the old Eldar weapons and simply convert crew members. I'm not saying I wouldn't play your army, but I really can't in good faith endorse casting your own miniatures (that are partially/mostly copied from GW) and using them. It's a cool idea, and a neat army, but that's just not how you're supposed to convert a cool army.

Legally, you're never going to get punished, and morally, your not hurting anybody.

How about using old Eldar grav platforms, especially the ones that look less like the new one for heavy weapons. They could be crewed by basic and pistol equipped Slann without conversion.

I too own a sizable Squat force and recast the plastic arms using Milliput and Green Stuff moulds. Old armless lead Squats far outnumber their plastic arms on Ebay.

Legally, you're breakin' tha law!

But wink-wink, nudge-nudge keep yer yap shut, and you'll be OK.

Doctor Thunder wrote:Legally, you're never going to get punished, and morally, your not hurting anybody.

Ethically though, you are doing something you know is wrong, for no reason except personal satisfaction.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Doctor Thunder wrote:Legally, you're never going to get punished, and morally, your not hurting anybody.

Ethically though, you are doing something you know is wrong, for no reason except personal satisfaction.

Depends on your ethics. Games Workshop does not sell the models and never will, so they are not loosing any money. It's only "wrong" if you believe in the law on which it's legality is based. I don't believe in that law, so I don't think it is "wrong."

I don't begrudge anyone who disagrees with me, however.

The default ethical position is to obey laws unless one can find sufficiently important reason to disobey them. That's because abuse of one law may weaken the whole body of law.

Otherwise anyone can "ethically" disobey any law, by saying he disbelieves in it, and all laws become a matter of convenience. (Admittedly, most people do this in some way or other -- I speed on the motorway.)

You don't know that GW won't ever sell the models. It's possible that if the original poster wrote to them, they might find a box of 500 Slann figures in the back of their warehouse.

It's also possible that by searching on the Internet he might find other Slann owners who would be interested in selling him their figures.

A third possibility is that GW might give written permission for him to recast a limited quantity of figures for personal use.

These possibilities are not likely, however it is wrong to assume they are impossible and use that to justify breaking the copyright.

IMO

Kilkrazy wrote:
Otherwise anyone can "ethically" disobey any law, by saying he disbelieves in it, and all laws become a matter of convenience. (Admittedly, most people do this in some way or other -- I speed on the motorway.)

And I refuse to be drafted and die for a country that hates me. (It hasn't happened yet but if I did I would refuse to obey)

So, both you and I agree in principal that laws can ethically be ignored, it is just in the details of which laws we chose to ignore that we disagree.

Trench-Raider wrote:Stay with me here, folks. This is a longish post...

I've been wargaming a long time and own alot of old, OOP, and collectable models. In fact in many cases I prefer these older sculpts to the items being produced by GW today. Anyway, far and away the crown jewel in my collection has to be my Space Slann army. I've owned a few original Space Slann models over the years, but nothing even close to an army sized selection. However a few years ago, I scored big time. A friend who was moving cleaned out his storage shed and sold off much of his collection. Amongst these was a large number of RT Space Slann models. Apparently back during the short period of time during which they were available he bought two full "sleaves" of Slann blisters with the intent of building an army. Well of course the Slann were never fleshed out correctly as an army by GW, he lost interest in the project, and the box of half painted models were stored away and forgotten.
Knowing my love for old and exotic RT models he sold the lot to me for a pitance....that is to say the overall price I payed was less than the original lead would have cost him circa 1990 or so when he bought them.

The original owner was not much of painter, so I had alot of work ahead of me in stripping down the figures. But in the end, combined with the handful of Slann I already owned, I have almost 100 Space Slann figures from the original 12 poses that were released for RT. To this add about 30 or fantasy Slann figures from the late "C series" that I converted with 40k guns and the like and you have enough models to run just about any army I like. In many ways it's the perfect proxy army as I can and have run it with the rules for just about any 40k army without anyone batting an eye. it's also probably the most valuable army I own as original Space Slann figures on the rare occasions they show up on Ebay go for between 25-35$US a piece depending on the pose. (do the math on that..it's probably worth more than a Forgeworld army). I also take alot of pride in the fact that it's a totally unique army. I also own a sizable Squat army, but have seen a good number of those over the years. However I have NEVER seen another Space Slann army, let alone one made of original poses. I have every reason to believe that it's totally unique.

Ok, enough background...

The problem is that there were only 12 poses released and all of these were armed with rifle or pistol type weapons.
http://www.solegends.com/citrt/tsf18spaceslann.htm
No poses for heavy or special weapons existed. The original owner had converted a couple of the SPace Slann figures to hold heavy weapons and I had jury rigged up a couple of flamer armed models using fantasy figures. But to run most army options I needed alot more. I had more than enough figures to play with, but was not about to chop up 30$ rare models up for conversions.

Here is were the recasting part comes in.
One of the guys in my local gaming group has a small jewelry centerfuge casting machine and is a skilled minitaure caster. Although he would never dream of selling recast miniatures, he does extensively cast old figures for his own personal use. He is also willing to help friends out with casting projects for the cost of materials. Well, this was the answer to the problem I was having with the lack of weapon options in the Slann army. We put several of the unpainted Slann models on mold and before long you would have thought we had the frogs in a pond of water, spawning!
Using the apropriate heavy and special weapons, I converted up a couple of master models which were then also placed on mold. Now I have acess to a pretty much unlimited number of special and heavy weapon models and it only cost me the price of the materials (a bag of shotgun pellets as casting metal and mold rubber) and my time and labor. (for those who have not experienced it, casting is labor intensive work. It's hot and messy. i would hate to do it for a living or actually try to make money from it as some of the rogue recasters did on Ebay a few years back)

So what do you lot think of this?
I have no plans of selling the army any time soon, and if I ever did I would keep or destroy the recast items. The IP being "infringed upon" is long OOP stuff that GW has long since made their last dime from. The only group negatively effected in this case would be the citadel miniatures collector's community, but even that is a non-issue if the recast models never make it into circulation.

I'm not looking for permission or validation here. (why would I seek that from a bunch of strangers anyway?) I've already done this, and as a rule of thumb if you see a rare OOP figure that has been converted in my collection (a rare sight truth be told as I don't do alot of converting) it's not an orginal casting. I'm just curious what the general feelings on this issue are.

TR

Spug the Law, do it if it looks good and you enjoy it.

If they would have kept interest in the Slann, then I can see a problem, but they dropped them and in effect won't go back and remake them, so !@#$ them. Don't worry about it, You obviously have more of a real honest to goodness need for the conversions then just that of beeing some sort of chinese pirate good stuff.

I would really like to se a picture of the finished product, because, after all that wouyld be the brass tacks to judge if you are rally even doing anything wrong.

Want an example? go over to the Reaper Mini's site and tell me how many of the minis you recognise from the old GW sculpters that are now working for them. By that standard, if its good for the goose, its good for the gander.

Good luck on the project.

I'll just chip in to say I'm sure there are still many slann from the fantasy range out there as well from 'back in the day' like the houndmaster with his alligator-hounds and the original slann lord on a palanquin as well as the infantry and cold one riders (and lobotomised human slave fighters, remember them?). many of those would be suitable for conversion work and additional troop types.

I did once contemplate making a Space Slann army using the really nice fantasy battle ones counting them as Farseer on Jetbikes. Then making the rest of the army out of whatever i liked, counting them as various Eldar units.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Otherwise anyone can "ethically" disobey any law, by saying he disbelieves in it, and all laws become a matter of convenience. (Admittedly, most people do this in some way or other -- I speed on the motorway.)

And I refuse to be drafted and die for a country that hates me. (It hasn't happened yet but if I did I would refuse to obey)

So, both you and I agree in principal that laws can ethically be ignored, it is just in the details of which laws we chose to ignore that we disagree.

Ethically, laws should never be ignored -- one should always think of the balance of right and wrong. There may be cases in which they should be defied in pursuit of a higher ethical purpose. For example, if taking one's wife to hospital in labour, it would be ethically right to exceed the speed limit if one can do safely.

My point in this case is that the OP has not yet exhausted all legal avenues, so he would be wrong to go straight to the illegal recasting option.

Trench-Raider wrote:
The problem is that there were only 12 poses released and all of these were armed with rifle or pistol type weapons.
http://www.solegends.com/citrt/tsf18spaceslann.htm
No poses for heavy or special weapons existed. The original owner had converted a couple of the SPace Slann figures to hold heavy weapons and I had jury rigged up a couple of flamer armed models using fantasy figures. But to run most army options I needed alot more. I had more than enough figures to play with, but was not about to chop up 30$ rare models up for conversions.

Here is were the recasting part comes in.
One of the guys in my local gaming group has a small jewelry centerfuge casting machine and is a skilled minitaure caster. Although he would never dream of selling recast miniatures, he does extensively cast old figures for his own personal use. He is also willing to help friends out with casting projects for the cost of materials. Well, this was the answer to the problem I was having with the lack of weapon options in the Slann army. We put several of the unpainted Slann models on mold and before long you would have thought we had the frogs in a pond of water, spawning!

If you're not looking for validation, I'm not sure why you are sharing.

(Disclaimer: While I am an IP lawyer, I am not your lawyer. The following is not intended as legal advice, and we have no legal relationship. If you want legal advice, find one of my colleagues in your jurisdiction and pay for it.)

What you are doing is probably illegal. Recasting a figure (for nearly any purpose) is copyright infringement. In making heavy/special weapons models (probably using GW's weapons?) you're creating a very definite derivative work, which is a right reserved to the copyright holder.

The only applicable defenses involve the concept of "fair use," and I cannot construct a reasonable argument on your behalf that this qualifies. "They didn't make the models I wanted" is not a defense. "I am not selling them commercially" is an insufficient defense. "I don't want to cut up expensive models" is the opposite to a fair use defense, especially as it undercuts your assertion of unavailability.

Doctor Thunder wrote:Depends on your ethics. Games Workshop does not sell the models and never will, so they are not loosing any money. It's only "wrong" if you believe in the law on which it's legality is based. I don't believe in that law, so I don't think it is "wrong."

I suppose I could go into the many justifications behind the whole system of intellectual property, it's place in business and the creative process, etc. But that probably won't change anyone's mind. My experience, at least among individuals, is that they view IP as an obstacle to overcome, rather than an acknowledgement that SOMEONE has created something cool enough that they want it; they just don't want to pay for it. I'm just happy enough people are willing to respect other people's IP, so that there are still movies to watch, music to listen to, books to read, software to use, and miniatures games to play.

Kilkrazy wrote:Ethically, laws should never be ignored -- one should always think of the balance of right and wrong. There may be cases in which they should be defied in pursuit of a higher ethical purpose. For example, if taking one's wife to hospital in labour, it would be ethically right to exceed the speed limit if one can do safely.

My point in this case is that the OP has not yet exhausted all legal avenues, so he would be wrong to go straight to the illegal recasting option.

I think your stance that laws should always be followed is an admirable one, and I applaud you for it.

For me, however, that is too simplistic. Laws are neither inherently good nor inherently bad. They are rules made by those in power, and they are only as pure or as good or as useful as the intentions of those who made them. Good laws should be followed, not because they are laws, but because they are good. Bad laws should only be followed enough to avoid unpleasant conflict with authorities.

I'm generally suspicious of laws that punish people when there was no victim or injury, but I'm particularly suspicious of laws that only protect those with lots of money. Ten years ago one of my screenplays was lifted and made into a motion picture with only the slightest of changes made, but in that case IP law did nothing to protect me except in theory, because I did not have the money to cover the legal costs to prosecute the case. I could only afford a few hours of the cheapest legal council, while my opposition had an entire team of permanently retained lawyers that could drag on the case for years without breaking a sweat. If I had attempted to take them on it would have bankrupted me.

Remember that the legal world is not about right and wrong, nor is it about legal or illegal. It is a schoolyard where the biggest kid wins. This is why GW can frequently strong arm small businesses with weak cases that are clearly baseless, because they know that their opposition cannot afford to oppose them and so they back down even when they are in the right.

A law that only protects those that can afford to enforce it is a bad law and should be ignored.

Who gets to pick the good and bad laws? Is there a list somewhere? There are laws that I consider bad and that I violate from time to time however I don't consider myself morally or ethically justified in my actions and if I was caught would consider myself at fault not the government. While I'm sympathetic to the OP because the models have been OOP I generally have contempt for people who do things like this. However, I've seen worse like making an entire army out of resin.

Your in the wrong to do it. The 'jury' isn't undecided, you just don't get punished most of the time that you do it. Not getting caught/punished doesn't making you less wrong. You say you don't care about validation, but I expect you'll argue for ever with anyone that doesn't agree with you.

Doctor Thunder wrote:
I think your stance that laws should always be followed is an admirable one, and I applaud you for it.

For me, however, that is too simplistic. Laws are neither inherently good nor inherently bad. They are rules made by those in power, and they are only as pure or as good or as useful as the intentions of those who made them. Good laws should be followed, not because they are laws, but because they are good. Bad laws should only be followed enough to avoid unpleasant conflict with authorities.

That's fine statement, but I think you're going to have a hard time rallying folks to this standard. "Bad Laws" can and do exist, and many were immoral. I'm a little leery of any one person saying they know good and bad laws, and only follow those that they think are good. That is seeing oneself as above the law and is a bit arrogant for my tastes.

I'm generally suspicious of laws that punish people when there was no victim or injury, but I'm particularly suspicious of laws that only protect those with lots of money. Ten years ago one of my screenplays was lifted and made into a motion picture with only the slightest of changes made, but in that case IP law did nothing to protect me except in theory, because I did not have the money to cover the legal costs to prosecute the case. I could only afford a few hours of the cheapest legal council, while my opposition had an entire team of permanently retained lawyers that could drag on the case for years without breaking a sweat. If I had attempted to take them on it would have bankrupted me.

Well, let's always be careful when you claim "there is no victim." Copyrighted material is the product of somebodies thought and creativity and labor, and they (or more likely their employer) enjoys the right of seeing that work reproduced as they see fit. I'm not saying it's a greivous injury, but maybe GW simply doens't want to see Space Slaan with heavy weapons. that is their right, and no matter how trivial, you are infringing upon it.

Additionally, I'm sorry you had your script stolen, particularly since "they stole my script" is up their with "the dingo ate my baby" in terms of believability. As i'm sure your low rent legal counsel told you, if you had registered the work (it takes about $45 and a form, less electronicaly), you would be eligible to sue for statutory damages plus legal fees, meaning even little guys can sue big guys. I'm not saying it always works, but your case sounds less like a fundamental flaw in the concept of rule of law than a series of bad breaks that has left you bitter about the system.

Remember that the legal world is not about right and wrong, nor is it about legal or illegal. It is a schoolyard where the biggest kid wins. This is why GW can frequently strong arm small businesses with weak cases that are clearly baseless, because they know that their opposition cannot afford to oppose them and so they back down even when they are in the right.

A law that only protects those that can afford to enforce it is a bad law and should be ignored.

This last bit is so untrue it hurts. Yes, the wealthy and powerful can drag out cases past where fairness would dictate, but to think that sheer size or meanness can make up for a strong legal case is simply preposterous. Look, you got screwed, and I'm sorry, but while the process could be improved (and there is an increasing movement among judges to issue sanctions for stalling tactics and other shenanigans), your proposal to simply abandon law is not really workable. Like it or not, rule of law is the only thing keeping the rich and powerful from simply owning us like chattel.

Polonius wrote:
That's fine statement, but I think you're going to have a hard time rallying folks to this standard.

I'm not really interested in convincing anyone of anything in this thread. Like I said, if people disagree with me, I respect that, and I don't begrudge them their right to their opinion. I am merely sharing mine.

Additionally, I'm sorry you had your script stolen, particularly since "they stole my script" is up their with "the dingo ate my baby" in terms of believability.

You are free to think me a liar if you want. I feel no particular desire to convince you. I only brought it up to explain why I do not believe in IP laws.

As i'm sure your low rent legal counsel told you, if you had registered the work (it takes about $45 and a form, less electronicaly), you would be eligible to sue for statutory damages plus legal fees, meaning even little guys can sue big guys. I'm not saying it always works, but your case sounds less like a fundamental flaw in the concept of rule of law than a series of bad breaks that has left you bitter about the system.

Actually, I did copyright my screenplay, for all the good it did me. I'm sure Janthkin can explain to you the enormous grey legal line that exists as to how many alterations need to be made to a work before it no longer counts as IP violation, which is where all the dance occurs.

but while the process could be improved (and there is an increasing movement among judges to issue sanctions for stalling tactics and other shenanigans), your proposal to simply abandon law is not really workable.

I think of it as civil disobedience, which has a long and noble tradition in the country I live in and in the world.

Like it or not, rule of law is the only thing keeping the rich and powerful from simply owning us like chattel.

I commend your reverence for the rule of law. (I really do, I'm not being sarcastic) I just don't share it. I think it has something to do with the fact that not too many generations ago, the authorities in north america attempted to genocidally wipe out my people. Now, I'm not trying to play a pity card here or anything, I'm just saying that knowing that leaves me a bit suspicious of the laws created by those same institutions and people.

Like I said before. Feel free to disagree. I respect your opinions on this matter, I just don't share them. If I have brought up too many personal details, I apologize. I did not intend to cloud the issue, I only wanted to give some of the reasons behind my opinions.

Ok are we talking the incident with Governor Boggs or something else? If it is the Missouri death order, just remember that "we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."

Marshal Torrick wrote:Ok are we talking the incident with Governor Boggs or something else? If it is the Missouri death order, just remember that "we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."

We're talking about recasting of copyrighted little toy soldiers. No clue what you're talking about.

I think that you need to show us all pics of your Space Slann army so we can poo-poo your morality but admire your toy soldiers.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I love it when this sort of question comes up, it's fun just sitting back reading all the twisiting and turning on the morale & IP issues Lets keep things nice and simple, GW in reality won't know and won't care. Only an anorak would know that you're fielding some models that were never made, and a true anorak would be impressed, not horrified, at what you'd done. If someone kicked off about it when you went to play them, just tell them to get a life and walkaway. Years ago, 40k 2nd edition time scale, I was unemployed and wanted some of the new style jump packs. Couldn't afford them, so got a mate to make me a mould and then recast 10 of them. Had no worries about it then and none now, because it was a one off and very small amount.

Wolfstan wrote:I love it when this sort of question comes up, it's fun just sitting back reading all the twisiting and turning on the morale & IP issues Lets keep things nice and simple, GW in reality won't know and won't care. Only an anorak would know that you're fielding some models that were never made, and a true anorak would be impressed, not horrified, at what you'd done. If someone kicked off about it when you went to play them, just tell them to get a life and walkaway. Years ago, 40k 2nd edition time scale, I was unemployed and wanted some of the new style jump packs. Couldn't afford them, so got a mate to make me a mould and then recast 10 of them. Had no worries about it then and none now, because it was a one off and very small amount.

Do you mean worries in the sense that you didn't think you would get found out, or worries in the sense that you didn't think it was wrong?

Not worried. I did it the once, and I'm unlikely to do it again. Also lets put this into perspective, people take a moral high ground on it, but how many of them have taped a record/cd, not paid for downloaded music, lent friends a dvd or book, recorded off the TV and lent that to a friend? All of these are just as illegal in the eyes of the law. My comment is that why bust your whatsits over something that is trivial?

Why don't you ask GW?

You have noticed all the scratch-built titans that ARE costing GW money, and they don't give a flying .

If you take a look at classicminiatures.net, you can probably very well tell the difference.

Legally, you aren't doing anything wrong--despite all the claims otherwise.

GW can tell you to take your 'fakes' and get out of events they run, but they don't prosecute (or even threaten it) unless you intend to sell their figures AND claim they are original.

It's an important point, lost on many.

Personally? I could give a . Do whatever you want with your own stuff. Make five armies outta it for all I care. I think those space slaan (something I'm in favor of fluff wise, thus my liz-Ork project) are a neat idea but look like utter rubbish.

So more power to you if you can make them look good in an army you like that you'll play.

It'd take a court order to make you strip down a painted fig so the model could be analyzed chemically to see if it was a 'fake'.

If anyone really thinks GW will do that, you are nuts. They are IP fanatics, but there's alot of lines they won't cross (because of the kind of bad publicity they'd get if it was NOT a fake) and believe you me this is one of those lines.

Really. They could give a about OOP models. Hasn't anyone noticed? No money for them, no money for you...yeah, who cares? GW? Funny.