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Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Right, recently on TV, there seems to be an unending tirade of programmes exploring the end of the UK's property boom, the credit crunch, and how these two have affected the thousands of people who bought into the dream of Buy-To-Let investments.

They come on the Telly, they sound all upset that the flats they bought, and then rented out, are now being reposessed, or sold on at a pretty big loss. Just last night, on Dispatches (excellent C4 programme) we were introduced to a family from my home town, Tunbridge Wells. The mother worked at a local school, the Father in London, and also shelf stacking at a local supermarket. Yet despite this, they are struggling to make ends meet. They hadn't done any buy to let, but, they had borrowed to the hilt to buy their home, and since the interest rates went up, can't really afford it. They have made lifestyle cuts, as I mentioned, the Husband has taken on a second job etc. Yet, I feel no sympathy.

Then another programme about the Property Bubble bursting. One woman had bought a few Flats, furnished them, and now cannot sell them for love nor money. Indeed, she was filmed meeting her estate agent who reccomended knocking something like £12,000 off the asking price. It later revealed that she faced losing her own home to reposession. Yet, I feel no sympathy.

The only people I felt even remotely sorry for, were the young, single mothers on a London Council Estate who had taken out loans from Door-to-Door Salesman, and kept getting deeper and deeper into debt. And even then, it's only because, albeit misguidedly, they were trying to offer their kids a better life.

And so, day in, day out, we are confronted with people who, franly, bit off far more than they can chew financially, and now have the frank audacity to complain that they are losing money. I say tough. Welcome to the real world. You saw a way to make relatively easy money, and for a while, you did. But now thats over. You speculated. You gambled. You lost. Other than time spent, this is no different, IMHO, than the person having whizzed their money up the wall at a Casino. And what is worse, thanks to them, I, and hundreds of young people like me, have been thoroughly priced out the market, and can't even afford to rent. Why?

Well, these people, the ones who thought they had more money than sense, and only recently found out they in fact have neither in spades, would pay over the odds for their properties. Why? Because the more they paid for it, the more they could rent it out for. Thus, guide price etc really didn't matter to them. They'd buy, spruce it up a bit, and then set an astronomic rate. This ball kept rolling, paying more, renting more, paying more, renting more, until they managed a most spectacular cock up. They not only priced themselves out the market, but also, managed to price their target Tenants out the market. Way to shoot yourself in the foot their guys! Can't say you don't deserve it either.

I don't even feel that much sympathy for those young people and couples who bought in the past few years. They knew, surely, that the Housing Market was vastly over inflated. How could they not? And yet, they too bought in to owning property as being essential, that it's value would hold forever and only appreciate. So they pandered to the greed of the Banks and took out a mortgage which, 10 years ago, they would have been denied for the very sound, very simple reason that they couldn't afford it. And now they are struggling. So there is a tiny amount of sympathy there, because although they went asking, it was the Banks responsibility to tell them no.

And then we come to the Banks and the Estate Agents, and their vicious circle of profiteering and irresponsible behaviour. Step 1. Estate Agent over values property (this is a well documented practice) knowing that the banks are offering mortgages to anyone. Step 2. Bank gives mortgage to person or persons who can only just about afford it. Rinse and repeat. All the time, the prices are creeping up artificially, funded by the greed of the banks.

And now, like an ironic house of cards, it's all come tumbling down. And these want help? They dare to complain the bed *they* made for themselves isn't comfy? Screw them I say. Let the Banks rot. Let the Estate Agents close. And lets return to some kind of sanity in the housing market. People deluded themselves for years, and now it's come to bite them on the bum.

The quandry is, I really don't like laughing at other peoples misfortunes. It's not a particularly nice thing to do. But when they are self inflicted, and of this magnitude....I can't help it!!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/09/23 12:58:50


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The Great State of Texas

Welcome to the world of conservatives. Thats what the $700Bn being bandied about in the US is for.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Sentient OverBear






Clearwater, FL

Same thing happened here about a year ago. We have a culture of victimhood, so the media blames "predatory lending practices" instead of "dumb retards didn't read their contracts or do their homework". My opinion is that we should have a "tent discount" for these people, but that's all the aid we should give.

This is coming from a guy who's living well below his means to pay off all of his and his fiancee's (substantial) debts. We're not proud, but we will be quite well off in five years or so.

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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Sad isn't it?

Why should these reckless, some might say, feckless Private Organisations get such a hand out from the State, when the whole mess is their bloody fault in the first place.

I get that the Banking system could collapse in it's entirety, and if that happens we're pretty much fooked, but it just leaves such a bad taste in my mouth. Here's hoping that Governments taking such measures inflict severe restrictions on the Banks for their troubles. You know, to avoid the mess happening again.

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The Great State of Texas

You will be if you're not taxed out of existence.

When I went to Cali to celebrate a friend's graduation (turns out he was on the 20 year plan…), he showed me around the neighborhood. Half million to million dollar homes. Half were in foreclosure or potentially. Evidently there was no proof of income required, no down payment, just people speculating they could get a house and turn it over in a year for a profit. No concept of actually being able to afford the house. Swindling monkeys, a pox on both their houses.

Now there’s news that they are talking about bailing out credit card and auto loans. Whats the deal? When did they repeal the free market? That’s what bankruptcy is for. If you screw up you file. If a company screws up it files. Now all of the sudden its “we screwed up, you bail me out.” Turning into a banana republic here.

Let them fall. Redeem the depositors per the US government guarantee. Let the lenders that did this fall and be swallowed up by their healthy competitors. Let the people with the loans, file and restart their lives properly. We’ve done it successfully for two hundred years. This is BS.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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The Great State of Texas

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Sad isn't it?

Why should these reckless, some might say, feckless Private Organisations get such a hand out from the State, when the whole mess is their bloody fault in the first place.

I get that the Banking system could collapse in it's entirety, and if that happens we're pretty much fooked, but it just leaves such a bad taste in my mouth. Here's hoping that Governments taking such measures inflict severe restrictions on the Banks for their troubles. You know, to avoid the mess happening again.


Thats lies you're being fed. The banking system would not fail. You're seeing financial companies fall, but they are supposed to. You're forgetting the BofA's, the JPMs, and other companies that are surviving and buying these decrepit firms up. The strong go stronger and the economy gets healthy. Thats how the system is supposed to work.

Let them fall.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Yarp.

But the man in the street who has over extended himself? I say screw him. Although there were Predatory Loans out there, as you said it is down to the individual to read it all, and if they don't understand, don't sign.

There was one person I felt particularly sorry for, as I suspect she really was a victim. Old lady, who was approached by a company offering to buy her Flat from her, and Rent it back, with a £22,000 sweetener thrown in somehow (not 100% how it would work). Foolishly, and under advice from the *companies solicitors) she signed. They have now evicted her. Nice huh?

One day blame culture will come to an end. I'm already sick to the back teeth of it in my private life!

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The Great State of Texas

I feel for those and feel for those who have lost their job, had a medical situation, or other surprise event (like a certain hurricane that came through). Save the relief for them. They need it and deserve a fair shake. but forget the rest of them.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Indeed!

My work has had two redundancies so far this year, I do feel sorry for the people. However, one was going to Uni anyways, and the other is a professional actress (who actually gets work, unlike 99% of the people who claim such a profession!)

But with Factory Closures etc, hundreds if not thousands of hard working people are facing an extremely harsh climate, all because of greed.

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Sentient OverBear






Clearwater, FL

jfrazell wrote:You will be if you're not taxed out of existence.


What?

I do find it amusing when people criticize Dems with the moniker "tax and spend Democrats." The only alternative I've seen lately are "not tax but do spend Republicans."

(I AM with you on the bailout thing, that is, I am strongly against it.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/09/23 21:59:01


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The Great State of Texas

True point that Iorek. Other than the democrats trying to take my guns I'm having real problems telling them apart.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

jfrazell wrote:Other than the democrats trying to take my guns I'm having real problems telling them apart.

It is no accident that they're down to hair-splitting. It's the very nature of a 2-party system, primarily to keep 3rd parties from becoming more powerful.

   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






London, UK

meanwhile, politics by the year 3000:



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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





It’s all good and well to throw your hands up and say ‘they’re just the same so what’s the point.’ Except the 2000 election and subsequent eight years showed there’s a big difference between candidates, even as they spend all their electioneering time running towards the centre.

Ultimately it’s very hard to argue against the sentence ‘if Bush hadn’t won in 2000 there wouldn’t be three trillion dollars and many hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq.’

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

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The Great State of Texas

sebster wrote:It’s all good and well to throw your hands up and say ‘they’re just the same so what’s the point.’ Except the 2000 election and subsequent eight years showed there’s a big difference between candidates, even as they spend all their electioneering time running towards the centre.

Ultimately it’s very hard to argue against the sentence ‘if Bush hadn’t won in 2000 there wouldn’t be three trillion dollars and many hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq.’


Wow thats brilliantly . I could just as easily say "if Gore had won in 2000 there would be a smoking crater where NY had been. If only we had pursued those terrorists instead of treating them like criminals and trying to prosecute them." Any more nonsense statements you'd like to add?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Can we keep this thread to gloating at the greddy swines losing everything? I'm starting to lose my smug, self satisfied rosey glow from their demise!

Was watching the News last night, and I understand that the Senata (might have been House of Representatives) still has to vote on the $700,000,000,000 bail out, and that many Democrats and Republicans alike are of a mind to just say 'screw them' and vote against it....

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Executing Exarch





Los Angeles

I'm of mixed feelings on all of this. I've managed to lose about 60k in the whole housing thing so I'm stinging a bit. However, I'm also of the opinion that I gambled and lost so its time to move on. And while I'd like congress to just make everything better, there are really a lot of zeroes after that 7 and I don't want to have to pay all that back (and if I don't, my kids or grandkids will). We got a big enough debt already, the only way to cover that much money is a huge rise in taxes (or a huge cut in spending) and no one wants to push though either.

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Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

jfrazell wrote:
sebster wrote:It’s all good and well to throw your hands up and say ‘they’re just the same so what’s the point.’ Except the 2000 election and subsequent eight years showed there’s a big difference between candidates, even as they spend all their electioneering time running towards the centre.

Ultimately it’s very hard to argue against the sentence ‘if Bush hadn’t won in 2000 there wouldn’t be three trillion dollars and many hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq.’


Wow thats brilliantly .


Why? What is your argument? Bush and his advisors (Wolfowitz, for example) CHOSE to go after Iraq for reasons having little to do with getting or stopping the people who attacked us. Gore would not have had staff interested in a new democracy-by-force project in Iraq. There is no reason to believe he would have gotten sidetracked like this.

jfrazell wrote:I could just as easily say "if Gore had won in 2000 there would be a smoking crater where NY had been.


What kind of bizarre fantasy is this statement based on? The Bush administration has repeatedly failed to implement 9/11 commission recommendations for increased security at home, like at our ports. How is a smoking hole going to happen? How on earth do you suppose that a Gore presidency would have made it happen?


jfrazell wrote:If only we had pursued those terrorists instead of treating them like criminals and trying to prosecute them." Any more nonsense statements you'd like to add?


You mean like how Clinton bombed terrorists after they attacked, and then was accused be Republican politicians of wagging the dog?

GWB and our government have NOT gone after the terrorists the way they should have been hunted. They have wasted far too many lives and far too much time and money on an irrelevant and murderous side project (Iraq), in direct detriment to actually stopping the terrorists. If we had had a president who didn’t have a personal political interest in attacking Iraq (whether Gore or someone else entirely), there is every reason to believe we would not be there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/09/24 19:05:41


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But Gore might not have even gone into Afghanistan either. This is a game of fantasyland, so why play it?

And our current budget is due in some part to decisions made during the Clinton-Gore presidency (and the Reagan-Bush, Bush-Quayle terms). Our pathetic state of intelligence in 2001 (which Bush further marginalized until 12 September 2001) is also due to decisions in that time period. The belief that the Cold War being over meant that the world would be great was a fallacy, but the government certainly cut the military and intelligence budgets to follow that train of thought. Fortunately, that didn't bite us in the *** during this decade

We don't know what a more democratic Iraq will bring. We might never know, as Democrats don't like any war that can't be fought with only Tomahawks and lasts more than a week. The strategy when the US entered was a disaster. The Dems beat that into a mantra to try and win the 2004 election, and now they believe it so sincerely, they are going to screw the pooch just as hard on getting out (in my opinion). Two wrongs don't make a right.

This just in: you can't judge history when you are living it. There are second and third order effects to every decision at this level and they take YEARS to observe and recognize.

Second and third order effects are those things politicians are clueless about, but drive the world.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/09/24 20:07:08


 
   
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The Great State of Texas

Incorrect dieneke, I'd proffer politicians are clueless about even 1st tier order of effects without someone telling them, and even then only if that information can be kept to a 3 by 5 cue card. This doesn't include the impact upon their chances of being re-elected of course. They are keenly knowledgeable in that regard. Its like watching idiot savants in action, but then again I'm insulting idiot savants so I have to apologize.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/09/24 20:10:16


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





dienekes96 wrote:But Gore might not have even gone into Afghanistan either. This is a game of fantasyland, so why play it?

And our current budget is due in some part to decisions made during the Clinton-Gore presidency (and the Reagan-Bush, Bush-Quayle terms). Our pathetic state of intelligence in 2001 (which Bush further marginalized until 12 September 2001) is also due to decisions in that time period. The belief that the Cold War being over meant that the world would be great was a fallacy, but the government certainly cut the military and intelligence budgets to follow that train of thought. Fortunately, that didn't bite us in the *** during this decade


We don't know what a more democratic Iraq will bring. We might never know, as Democrats don't like any war that can't be fought with only Tomahawks and lasts more than a week. The strategy when the US entered was a disaster. The Dems beat that into a mantra to try and win the 2004 election, and now they believe it so sincerely, they are going to screw the pooch just as hard on getting out (in my opinion). Two wrongs don't make a right.


I'm not all that big a fan of some of the rhetoric from the left about closing up shop and pulling out ASAP. That seems to me to be politically driven, an easy way of declaring the whole thing a neo-con screw up. I mean, the whole thing is a neo-con screw up, but that doesn't mean there isn't still good to be done in leaving the country in proper order.

But it’s very likely that whatever good comes out of the situation at this point is unlikely to justify what it’s cost. It’s also unlikely that whatever good comes out of the situation will be the result of US action, but from the work of Iraqis themselves.

This just in: you can't judge history when you are living it. There are second and third order effects to every decision at this level and they take YEARS to observe and recognize.

Second and third order effects are those things politicians are clueless about, but drive the world.

We don’t have perfect knowledge, and things will often take a while to develop fully. But it’s a nonsense to make the leap that we can’t review actions taken now on the basis of their likely results. You’re arguing for everyone to take a step back and start waiting ten and fifteen years before assessing anything done by our glorious leaders. It’s about as non-democratic an argument as you’re likely to see.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





jfrazell wrote:Wow thats brilliantly . I could just as easily say "if Gore had won in 2000 there would be a smoking crater where NY had been. If only we had pursued those terrorists instead of treating them like criminals and trying to prosecute them." Any more nonsense statements you'd like to add?


Because the situation is clear. Before Bush, no-one was arguing for an invasion of Iraq. Every justification and cause came entirely from the Bush administration. It wasn’t a case of other politicians being unwilling to invade, but a case no-one else even considering the possibility of invading Iraq.

Now, it’s possible that Gore might have invaded Canada to secure a regular source of overly polite people. It’s possible he could have infuriated the actual inventors of the internet to such a point that they formed a terrorist group and blew Fresno to kingdom come. That’s speculation and you’re welcome to do that as much or as little as you want.

But it isn’t speculation to say that the invasion of Iraq was created entirely by the Bush administration.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Can we keep this thread to gloating at the greddy swines losing everything? I'm starting to lose my smug, self satisfied rosey glow from their demise!

Was watching the News last night, and I understand that the Senata (might have been House of Representatives) still has to vote on the $700,000,000,000 bail out, and that many Democrats and Republicans alike are of a mind to just say 'screw them' and vote against it....


Jfraz and Mannahin have both been reported for derailing a thread.

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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Can we keep this thread to gloating at the greddy swines losing everything? I'm starting to lose my smug, self satisfied rosey glow from their demise!


I dont consider myself a bad person, but when the woman came on who had borrowed one million pounds to buy seven uncompleted apartments after a single weekend seminar, I did find it difficult to be sympathetic!

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The Great State of Texas

malfred wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Can we keep this thread to gloating at the greddy swines losing everything? I'm starting to lose my smug, self satisfied rosey glow from their demise!

Was watching the News last night, and I understand that the Senata (might have been House of Representatives) still has to vote on the $700,000,000,000 bail out, and that many Democrats and Republicans alike are of a mind to just say 'screw them' and vote against it....


Jfraz and Mannahin have both been reported for derailing a thread.


Frankly Malf, after all the direct attacks and personal innuendoes, I'm still not listed as a friend

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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malfred wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Can we keep this thread to gloating at the greddy swines losing everything? I'm starting to lose my smug, self satisfied rosey glow from their demise!

Was watching the News last night, and I understand that the Senata (might have been House of Representatives) still has to vote on the $700,000,000,000 bail out, and that many Democrats and Republicans alike are of a mind to just say 'screw them' and vote against it....


Jfraz and Mannahin have both been reported for derailing a thread.


Exalt!

Back on topic....

I too have no sympathy for people silly enough to buy at the top of the housing market bubble and get too far into debt to be able to do so.

We bought a house last year.
3 betrooms. 627 square meter block.
$20, 000AUS under our budget.

We have paid off 1 sixth of the total cost in 1 year, even after interest (thanks to 9 interest rate rises in the last year we pay the same interest as when we started despite cutting a huge amout out).
The wife and I aim to pay it off in 8 and a half years even with her working part time thanks to kids (3-4 of them).

We are doing without now so that we can invest later.

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3-4 kids? Does one of them keep splitting like an amoeba (I do know the right word for this process, but cannot remember it!)

But thats the key. You set yourself a budget, and managed to come in under it. May I ask if you got *everything* you wanted in the house, or were you willing to make a compromise for the savings?

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Made in au
[DCM]
.. .-.. .-.. ..- -- .. -. .- - ..






Toowoomba, Australia

We still have the cathode ray TV (7 years old), stereo is ver 8 years old, both cars are over 7 years old (but in great condition).

We buy new things every year but its all budgeted and when we hit the limit for the year for a purchasing block (i.e. garden/home maintainence or upgrades, or furniture, or holidays) then we spend nothing else on that section until the next financial year.

If the baby comes before January and we get the $5400 baby bonus (lose it come January as the rules change and we earn too much). We will buy new computer (current desktop 4 years old), and flatscreen TV (to switch to digital TV). We don't need the money for the baby as we have already budgeted all forseeable costs for the baby....

2025: Games Played:8/Models Bought:162/Sold:169/Painted:125
2024: Games Played:6/Models Bought:393/Sold:519/Painted: 207
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2020-2022: Games Played:42/Models Bought:1271/Sold:631/Painted:442
2016-19: Games Played:369/Models Bought:772/Sold:378/ Painted:268
2012-15: Games Played:412/Models Bought: 1163/Sold:730/Painted:436 
   
Made in gb
Perturbed Blood Angel Tactical Marine




UK

Mad Doc, I wouldn't expect you to have sympathy or empathy for anyone with a mortgage if you don't have one yourself.

Wanting to have a roof over your head is one thing compared to wanting to turn a huge profit from it.

 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

The problem with the UK housing market came about because people started to see their house as a financial investment rather than as the place where they kept themselves out of the rain.

This, plus the low rate of house building, ratcheted prices up, especially in the south and east, far beyond what ordinary people could afford.

But people still have to live somewhere.


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