This'll be interesting...
Morloq wrote:Hey everyone, I'm looking to start up a 2000 pt guard force so any ideas and/or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Hi Morloq. I'm HBMC. One of my jobs here, aside from snarky comments, entertaining people who 'get' me, and annoying people who don't realise how often I'm not being serious, is deconstructing Guard armies that people make and so that I can turn them into good armies without compromising what makes the army 'theirs'. What I mean by that is that if someone is hell bent on taking Grenadiers, or three Basilisks, or heaps of things I wouldn't do, I'll still keep them in the re-made list.
Some things though are beyond help and I cannot help but rip into them so to remove all the crap that shouldn't be there. Sometimes it's just units that are horrible. Sometimes it's whole armies.
Sadly, your army falls into the latter category. But rather than just telling you that your list is poor, it's going to be much better if I go through it squad-by-squad and explain what things are bad, what things are good, and what things could be better. And what things need to be dropped immediately, no question.
Morloq wrote:Doctrines: Sharpshooters, Hardened Fighters, Rough Riders, Iron Discipline, Cameleoline
And we're off to a bad start.
1. Cameleoline: Nothing wrong with this one as long as you don't find yourself in a situation where you could afford 2-3 more squads for the points you’re spending on this upgrade. That said, given the rest of your army, I can't see this being a problem currently.
2. Iron Discipline: As far as I am concerned this is the one and only mandatory Doctrine choice in the Codex. I look forward to
GW removing this one completely whey they re-do the Guard Codex.
3. Rough Riders: Nothing wrong with Rough Riders. They're a powerful unit when used right. As I'm sure you've figured out, if they don't get the charge they're worthless, and you have to be careful to keep them hidden (even harder now that area terrain is pointless in 5th), but otherwise there are few things that can gut a Marine or Terminator Squad on the charge like a unit of Rough Riders.
4. Sharpshooters: Here's where things start falling apart for your Doctrine choices. There's nothing inherently wrong with Sharpshooters as far as Doctrines go - it certainly has its uses - but the key to making the most of Sharpshooters is its application. I'll go into this in a bit more depth as we move through your squads, but let me just start by saying that Sharpshooters only belongs on two types of units - units with multiple heavy weapons or units with multiple non-plasma/non-flamer special weapons. Putting it on line squads is a complete waste simply because 10 points isn't worth it for some Lasguns that you'll probably never shoot anyway.
5. Hardened Fighters: Easily one of the two worst Doctrines in the Codex (edged out only by Cybernetic Enhancements), Hardened Fighters should never be taken. No, don't even think about mounting an argument or attempting to justify the reasons for taking it. Hardened Fighters should never be taken. Ever. Ever ever. But simply saying that to you isn't going to explain why, and although I've said this what feels like a thousand times before in a thousand different threads, you're new, so I'll go into it again. This is paraphrased from my article on Doctrines you can find
here. I must warn you thought that it was written in a 3rd Ed/4th Ed mindset, not with 5th Ed in mind, but a lot of it is still valid, especially (most of) the section on Hardened Fighters:
Another completely useless Doctrine, Hardened Fighters is the best example of '
throwing points at a weakness so that it'll go away' I can think of. One should always play towards their Guard army's strengths (shooting) and never try to make up for its weaknesses (
HTH) by paying points for marginal increases in
HTH ability. By taking Hardened Fighters, you're just making the each squad 15 points more expensive for not much gain. In order for the unit to have a chance in
HTH a unit has to be able to swing before their unit is completely gutted. Close Order Drill does that, giving them I4. It won't help against Aspect Warriors or Super-Gaunts, but against most Marines it's enough to give you 10 or 11 WS3 S3 I4 attacks whenever you get charged. And, most importantly, this ability doesn't cost you a single point. Spending 15 points per squad to make yourself slightly harder to hit (remember
HF doesn't improve your combat ability, it only slightly hampers theirs) is a bad idea.
Always remember, play to your army's strengths, not its weaknesses (that's your opponent's job). Don't spend points in a feeble attempt to plug up a weakness, spend those 15 points a squad on more guns (a strength). Yes you're going to get into
HTH eventually, but your opponent is going to find it much harder to fight against 60 points + equipment squads than against 75 points + equipment squads because there will be more of them.
HF is just making the squad 25% more expensive for no real gain. When you send your Guard into
HTH combat the aim is not to beat the enemy but to stall the enemy, either by allowing the rest of your troops to get away or giving you time to swarm an enemy unit with a few extra squads. Spending 15 points a squad for no real gain just means you have less warm bodies on the table, less guns, and less ability to swarm.
Do not take Hardened Fighters. You will never need it. Ever. It will never help you. Spend the points elsewhere.
So that's the Doctrines out of the way. You've got one mandatory one, one good one, one good unit, one that requires careful consideration in its use, and one that should be dumped immediately in favour of something that doesn't suck.
Morloq wrote:258 HQ-(Senior Officer, Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon, Trademark Item, Iron Discipline, Melta Gun, 2 Veterans, Medic, Plasma Pistol w/ Chainsword, krak grenades, Master Vox, Commissar, Starm Bolter, Power Fist, Carapace Armor, Medallion Crimson, Cameleoline, Hardened Fighters)
Oh wow. Just wow.
258 points on 8 T3 wounds. That's just amazingly bad.
There's a phrase I use a lot when talking about Guard armies: Bloat. Bloat is stuff that gets tacked on when it doesn't need to be there, in no way helps the army, and in some ways hinders the army. This unit is astonishingly bloated, let's go into it.
1. Senior Officers: There's no reason to bring a Senior Officer. Ever. Heroic Senior Officers (
HSO's) have superior statlines and aren't that much more, and a Junior Officers (
JO's) an w/Honorifica Imperialis is the same as an
HSO for five points
less. The Senior Officer fills no niche, serves no purposes, gives you no advantages over the lesser or greater ones.
2. Wargear: Weapons and wargear on Guard Officers is purely ornamental. The reason for this is very simple - Guard Officers should not be fighting. Even if we ignore the Kill Point situation, Guard Officers are not good at fighting. They don't shoot well and they certainly don't fight in
HTH well. They're pathetic puny humans with only slightly better stats than a regular Guardsman and they simply do not belong in a 'proper' fight. So what do Officers do then, I hear you ask? They lead. They lead from the back. A wonderful thing that all Officers have (at least until Jervis' screws it up in the next Guard Codex) is the Command or Leadership Radius. This free - and I cannot emphasise that enough,
free - 12" bubble provides Leadership to any squad that has even a single model partially within its diameter. Guard squads are Ld7 are therefore always Ld9 (or 8 if near a Platoon Command Section), and because of Iron Discipline this doesn't go down except in
HTH combat (where you're going to die anyway, so who cares).
Therefore, as Guard Officers should not be fighting, only
leading (from the back), they should not be given weapons. At all. The pistol and sword they get as standard is it. Nothing more. You don't buy them armour, grenades, medals, force fields or any other trinkets. All these items do nothing except make your Officer worth more, therefore taking away points from the things you should be investing in. The only item of Wargear an Officer should ever have is an Honorifica Imperialis, and that's on the
JO that leads your army so he can be an
HSO for 5 points less than an actual
HSO (and then that 5 points you saved goes into Iron Discipline).
Your commander should cost 65 points, and not a point more.
3. His Command Squad: One of the things I'm very big on when going over people's army lists is the role that any squad plays.
40K is a short game - in 6 turns each of your units has to make their mark - and that's not a lot of time. For this reason each unit you take has to have a defined role that it will play, be it
HTH against hard targets, shooting at light infantry, dealing with skimmers, whatever. The definition of roles is as wide and varied as the armies themselves. What matters most though is that a unit pick a role and stick to that role. The game isn't long enough for (and
40K's either/or mechanics are non-conducive to) units that want to do more than one thing.
Your Command Squad is trying to do too much at once. It's trying to fight in
HTH with the SO and Commissar, take out heavy infantry with a plasma pistol, fight tanks with a Meltagun and Krak Grenades, lead its troops with a Master Vox (more on that in a moment), and at the same time keep itself alive with the Medic. In my mind the Medic is some kind of cruel joke. If you use this unit as you've armed them, that Medic is not going to save them.
As I said above in the Officer part, Guard Officers do not fight, they
lead. Because of this, giving them any weapons whatsoever goes against this because if you have a special weapon, or a heavy weapon, you'll obviously be tempted to use it, and to use it you'd have to get within
LOS of the enemy, and if you're within
LOS of the enemy they can shoot you and eliminate one of the most important units in your army, robbing you of your Leadership bubble.
So, the Meltagun goes. You're never going to use and, more importantly, you don't want to use it. If your CHQ is close enough to the enemy to need to slag a Land Raider, something's gone very wrong.
The Veteran Wargear goes. You don't need the Plasma Pistol and the Medic is of no use. The squad should not be getting shot at and it's so fragile that a Medic isn't going to help.
Hardened Fighters goes for reasons I've already explained.
The Master Vox... gets its own section.
4. The Master Vox (and Voxes in general): It is very clear to me that you understand the
significance of Leadership in a Guard army, you just don't yet understand the
application of Leadership units. You've taken Voxes everywhere you can, so it's obvious that you know you need
Ld boosting abilities. The problem comes with the fact that Voxes are completely irrelevant pieces of crap that serve no purpose whatsoever. Why? I go back to what I said about your Officer...
"
A wonderful thing that all Officers have ... is the Command or Leadership Radius. This free - and I cannot emphasise that enough, free - 12" bubble provides Leadership to any squad that has even a single model partially within its diameter."
Again, the main point here is that this ability is free.
Voxes provide this ability for points. A lot of points actually. 25 in your CHQ and then 5 in every squad. For what though? How hard is it to keep one model from each squad within 12" of your Commander or one of the two (at least) other Officers in your army?
Answer: Not hard at all.
You don't need Voxes. No one ever needs Voxes. Ever. They are superfluous, extraneous, redundant, unnecessary and lots of other words that mean roughly the same thing.
5. The Commissar: I'm going to be blunt here, as blunt as I can be within the limits of Dakka's board software:
Commissars are sh!t. Utter sh!t.
They are 20 points more expensive than they should be, you cannot choose where they go, their 'abilities' (
HTH fighting) are neither necessary nor all that good. Their Leadership boosting ability sure is useful, but not worth 40 points, and they can kill your own men. I'm sorry, but there's no two ways about it. Commissars, until they are fixed, should not be included in a Guard army unless there is honestly and absolutely nothing left you can spend 40 points on.
And I say 40 points as opposed to the 85 (!) you've spent on yours because, like with regular Officers, Commissars should not be given any wargear beyond their standard equipment.
6. No Standard Bearer: As I've mentioned a few times now, units in
40K have to have a clearly defined role that they stick to for the entire game. For Guard Officers (and their Command Squads), this role is leadership. They can't fight very well, are worth too much when destroyed to ever be exposed to the enemy (2KP per unit!!!), and the only thing they do well is provide a
free Leadership Bubble for your other squads.
So how do I make them better at their role of Leadership, you ask? How can they be better than just an Officer hiding behind a hill or a tank?
Easy.
The Standard Bearer.
Now you've already spent 11 points on that waste-of-space Medic, so the swap here is easy. For the very same 11 points you spent on the Medic you get a Standard Bearer. This Standard Bearer now makes the Ld9 your Command Squad gives out even better, as now your squads get a re-roll as well as Ld9. All this for 11 points. An absolute steal!!!
Concluding Thoughts:
At the end of the day, your CHQ needs to achieve two goals. It needs to be cheap enough to not break the bank, allowing more points to be spent on guns and it needs to be able to complete its assigned role (Leadership) as effectively as it can. To this end there is simply only one configuration that completes both criteria.
Junior Officer (40) w/Laspistol + CCW + Honorifica Imperialis (25)
Veteran (6) w/Laspistol + CCW + Company Standard (5)
3 Guardsmen w/Lasguns
Iron Discipline (5)
Cameleoline (10)
Total = 91 Points
And that's it. 91 points. This unit sits centre back of your lines and provides Ld9, Iron Discipline and a re-roll to all squads that have even just a single model partially within 12".
I just saved you 167 points. That's almost two Heavy Bolter/Flamer/Cameleoline squads right there.
Morloq wrote:100 Fire Support-(3 Heavy Bolters, Sharpshooters, Cameleoline)
170 3 Sentinels-(2 Multi-lasrs, Autocannon, Hardened Fighters)
I'll look at these units together as they generally fill the same area and it's good to look at Support Squads together.
1. Fire Support Squad: Nothing wrong with this unit. 3 Heavy Bolters is what they should have, the application of Sharpshooters here is 100% correct, and Cameleoline adds to their durability, very important for a T3 unit with 6 wounds. I find no faults here other than there's only one.
2. Sentinel Squad: This is all wrong.
Firstly, it's a Squadron. 5th Ed rules mean that Immobilisation = Destroyed for vehicle Squadrons. That means that, with their Open-Top-ed-ness, a 3+ = death whenever the opposing player rolls on the damage chart. This unit is just an easy
KP waiting to happen.
Secondly, the mixed weapons. Multi-Lasers are fantastic and often underestimated weapons. People look at the AP6 and immediately dismiss them. I like to punish people who have that point of view as the Multi-Laser has so many uses, from clearing infantry, to taking out light vehicles, to forcing saves on tougher targets and putting the law of averages in my favour. In 5th Ed especially the Multi-Laser is a must have, as everyone has cover saves making AP4, AP3 and AP2 weapons (almost) redundant in a stand-up fight. What you need now is loads of wounds, and the S6 of the Multi-Laser does this for you with flying colours. Similarly, Autocannons are fantastic weapons. They are probably one of the most, if not
the most consistent heavy weapon the Guard can get. 2 shots at BS3 means that one should hit every time you fire it, the S7 allows it to handle anything except AV14 and they're never that costly. But putting to two together? That shouldn't be done.
The reason for this goes back to what I said about roles. Autocannons do different things to what Multi-Lasers do. It's not the best idea in the world to be chugging away with Autocannons at hordes of Orks and 'Nids. It (mostly) wastes their fire when they could be firing at better targets. By the sake token, Multi-Lasers won't help you that much when the Autocannons are trying to bring down AV12 vehicles (their specialty). There is quite a lot of overlap on target profiles for the Multi-Laser and Autocannon, which is good, but you should still be keeping them separate.
Overall Support Squads should be doing exactly that -
supporting the army. They should be filling gaps that other units cannot fill. For instance, if your squads are all anti-infantry, Support Squads should be geared towards providing Anti-tank, and vice versa. Here we have a unit set for anti-infantry work, and that's great, and then a unit of walkers with mixed weapons with - bizarrely - Hardened Fighters. Were you really going to send these guys into
HTH combat?
Really?
I would be hesitant to keep this unit at all in a rebuilt list, but for the time being let's say you keep the Sentinels. The Sentinels should actually be
Sentinel, singular, he can have either the Multi-Laser or to the Autocannon, your choice, and that's it. Sentinels die when you look at them, so spending too many points on them is a waste of time. The points saved can go into a further Fire Support Squad, wither with 3
ACs or 3
HBs.
Whatever the case, you can save a lot of points here.
Morloq wrote:176 Troops HQ-(Junior Officer, Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon, Trademark Item, Iron Discipline, Grenade Launcher, Plasma Gun, Veteran, Medic, Vox, Commissar, Bolt Pistol, Power Fist, Sharpshooters, Cameleoline)
115 Squad 1-(Veteran Sergeant, Bolt Pistol, Missile Launcher, Grenade Launcher, Vox, Cameleoline, Sharpshooters)
124 Squad 2-(Veteran Sergeant, Lascannon, Grenade Launcher, Vox, Cameleoline, Sharpshooters)
Ok that is a little funny. 415 points for 26 T3 models. That's edging over 15 points per model in this Platoon. Guardsmen are never worth as much as a Marine. Ever. But ok, let's break this down bit by bit and see where it can be improved.
1. The Officer: Everything I said earlier about your Commander applies here. Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon and Trademark Item all go out the window, and instantly you've saved 16 points. These guys never have anything other than Iron Discipline. They hide and stay alive.
2. Extra Weapons: Now what I said before about giving weapons to your Commander's unit doesn't always apply to Command Sections. In practice, you pick one of three weapon types for your Platoon Command Section and take 4 of that gun (or as many as you can afford), or no guns at all. What you don't do is
mix weapons.
The role of the unit has to be defined. Here the unit is completely mixed up.
The Officer is for
HTH. The Commissar is for
HTH. They have a Vox to provide Leadership (which they can't do if they die in
HTH). They've got Sharpshooters for the Grenade Launcher (and only the Grenade Launcher as the Plasma Gun doesn't benefit and who cares about Lasguns). They've got a Grenade Launcher (by far the worst weapon you can give to any Guardsmen). A single plasma gun. A Medic, again. And then no Hardened Fighters.
What is it meant to be doing?
HTH fighting? Leadership boosting? Shooting at infantry? Shooting at heavy infantry? If
HTH why no Hardened Fighters? If
HTH why Sharpshooters? Is the Medic there to protect against Overheats?
Do you see how this unit is completely confused?
4. The Medic, the Commissar the ever-present Vox-Caster: Everything I said before applies here. Medics are unnecessary, Commissars suck and Vox-Casters do nothing you don't already get for
free just by taking the Officer.
5. Sharpshooters: Bringing it up here because this is a great example of a
bad application. 10 points to re-roll a Grenade Launcher, a Bolt Pistol and two Lasguns? It doesn't even work on the Commissar as he's BS4. This is 10 points wasted terribly.
6. The First Squad: 'Bout as bad as you can get as far as squads go. This squad redefined Bloat, really. The only way to make this one worse would be to give the Sergeant a Plasma Pistol and swap the Missile Launcher for a Mortar. No, don't do that.
For starters, why are you taking Veteran Sergeants if you're taking Voxes (or, attempting to use your Officers for
Ld at all). This doesn't make any sense. 6 points wasted.
Why are you giving them Wargear? 7 points wasted.
Why Voxes at all? 12 points wasted.
Sharpshooters on a Line Squad means you're paying 10 points to get half an extra hit with your heavy weapon a game. 22 points wasted.
Grenade Launchers are the worst weapon you can take in a Guard squad. Flamers are cheaper and kill infantry better. Plasma Guns kill hard targets better and are only 2 points more. Meltaguns are also only 2 points more and kill tanks better than any other gun in the game. Worse, now Frag Grenades scatter
2D6-3" every time you fire them. They're crap. 30 points wasted.
Missile Launchers have no place in a Guard army. For the same cost you can get an Autocannon which is better against AV10, 11 and 12 and equal against AV13. It can't scratch AV14, but then again neither can Kraks in 5th anyway (you can't roll a Destroyed result when you Glance). Missile Launchers are terrible weapons for a Guard army when Autocannons are available for the same cost. 45 points wasted.
This squad should cost 95 points (60 + Autocannon + Plasma Gun + Cameleoline = 95).
What role does this squad play? It has to score, and it has to do something while it scores. What do Guard do? They shoot. So it should be holding objectives and shooting at the same time. This squad can hold objectives, shoot badly, and has further points spent on things that won't ever help it -
BP's, Voxes and the strange addition of a Vet Sergeant.
7. The Second Squad: Worse than the first squad, but not for the same reason the first squad is bad. The first squad is bad because it has a load of useless junk weapons and needless upgrades. This squad fails because it also has needless junk, but also because it has mismatched weapons.
Grenade Launchers, apart from being something that should never appear in a Guard army, ever, do not match with Lascannons. The two weapons are designed for entirely different purposes - one to shoot at tanks, the other to never be taken ever in a Guard army - and these purposes are completely alien to one another. Remember what I said about a role. This squad cannot try and do two things at once because it has 6 shooting phases to make its mark and with the new vehicle cover rules, you're going to need 6 turns to even have a hope of doing anything to a tank in cover, therefore it will do nothing but shoot at vehicles all game.
The truth of the matter is that there is no weapon that matches up with the Lascannon. The Plasma Gun's strength is to low, the Flamer is designed for a different role, the Grenade Launcher should never be taken in a Guard army and the Meltagun's range is too short. So your choices are either nothing to go with the Lascannon, or a Plasma Gun (because at least they have the same
AP, so when a 'Zilla 'Nid list comes a'rushing your lines you can throw some more anti-Sv2+ shots at it).
Concluding Thoughts:
This platoon is a mess because it spends so many points for such a small return. The voxes, the Veteran Sergeants, mismatched wargear and weapons, the presence of Grenade Launchers, all of it leads to a platoon that is worth nearly twice as much as it should. You can get a platoon that has a
JO w/Iron Discipline + 4 Flamers and 3 Autocannon/Plasma Squads, all with Cameleoline, for less than the platoon above and
still have
51 points left. 51!!!!!
Morloq wrote:161 Troops HQ-(Junior Officer, Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon, Trademark Item, Iron Discipline, Grenade Launcher, Plasma Gun, Veteran, Medic, Vox, Commissar, Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon, Sharpshooters, Cameleoline)
115 Squad 3-(Veteran Sergeant, Bolt Pistol, Missile Launcher, Grenade Launcher, Vox, Cameleoline, Sharpshooters)
109 Squad 4-(Veteran Sergeant, Heavy Bolter, Grenade Launcher, Vox, Cameleoline, Sharpshooters)
Everything I said about the previous platoon applies to this one, except that now it's a Heavy Bolter alongside the Grenade Launcher. Very, very bad. For the cost of this platoon you can get another Platoon Command Section w/Iron Discipline + 4 Flamers and 3 Heavy Bolter/Flamer Squads, again all with Cameleoline, and have 48 points left.
And again I must point out the misuse of Sharpshooters. This is an upgrade designed to enhance squads and make heavy weapons more useful. Other than your Fire Support Squad all you've managed to do with it is make your squads more expensive for an extra half a heavy weapon hit a game. You don't take Sharpshooters on squads because Lasguns aren't worth it, and Plasma Guns and Flamers don't benefit from it, meaning it only benefits the heavy weapon and the benefit is so small that it is not worth the cost.
So now that's 99 points left just from making these two platoons worthwhile. Combined with the points you save from not over-bloating the CHQ you'd have 266 points spare. That's over 13% of your army spent on bloat and I haven't even got to the rest of the list yet.
Morloq wrote:163 Leman Russ-(Lascannon, Rough Terrain Modification (RTM), Smoke Launchers)
The Lascannon will never get used. Take 3 Heavy Bolters. Same cost, and you get three good weapons.
RTMs... this is a situational one dependant on your local area. If you play a lot of games with loads of terrain, then it's ok, if you don't, why bother. The more pressing question though is
why are you moving??? 5th Ed killed vehicle mobility. Now vehicles are Main Battle Bunkers rather than Main Battle Tanks. You should be in cover and shooting unless you are forced to move. For that reason, RTM's, while not a bad upgrade (depending on your local situation), is misplaced on the Russ.
And Smoke Launchers? Again, why are you moving? You have 6 turns (usually) to make your mark. 3 points is maybe worth it if you have nothing left to buy at the end (and we'll see if that's true when I get to the rebuild), but otherwise Smoke Launchers is a turn not shooting, and one less turn to make your mark.
Furthermore this is 2000 points and you've got a single tank. A single tank. You're basically asking your opponent to train every single heavy weapon he has at it. You need two, three, or none at this points level. If you have 1, it's a target, and will spend the game shaken (or worse).
Morloq wrote:102 6 Rough Riders-(Veteran Sergeant, Hunting Lances, Melta Bombs, Vox, 1 Frag Grenade)
It's all about picking a role and sticking to it. This unit is not going to go and hunt vehicles. They do not need Meltabombs. This unit does one thing and one thing only - it charges an enemy squad, guts it or wipes it out, and then dies horribly. That is all they do. They do not need a Vox because they'll be dead or have used their Hunting Lances by the time they have to make any morale checks. They don't need frags because you should not be charging into cover as that wastes the I5 you're paying for with the Lances. And, again, this unit is designed to crash into units of Marines/Aspect Warriors/Terminators, not go hunting vehicles, so the Meltabombs are a waste.
6
RR's should cost 66 points. Not 102.
Morloq wrote:130 Hellhound-(RTM, Hunter Killer Missile)
Again, it's all about the role.
What do Hellhounds do? Kill infantry.
Can Hellhounds fire at two different targets at once? No.
So what then does a Hunter Killer Missile do? Confuses the role.
It's a one-shot anti-tank missile on an anti-infantry platform.
The Hellhound needs Extra Armour, it can maybe do with smoke, RTMs are a good choice but most of all it needs a friend! People are afraid of Hellhounds - unreasonably so - so they will target it from the word go. Having a single Hellhound is just asking to have it removed by the bottom of turn 2. You need a second one, and at 2000 points you should be able to afford it.
Morloq wrote:103 Basilisk-(Smoke Launchers)
This really makes me wonder how new you are to Guard. I don't say that as a personal attack at you - I really, really don't so
please don't take it that way - but take a look at this Basilisk. What is it missing?
Indirect Fire.
I don't like Basilisks, I find them too random for my tastes, even more so with the needless 5th Ed scatter rules, but if you are going to take one, you need to give it indirect fire otherwise it's just an AV12 tank with a huge gun. It's a 25 point upgrade you haven't bought, that alone has single handedley made this tank utterly useless. AV12 targets do not survive long.
Maybe that was intentional - maybe you meant to take a Direct-Fire Basilisk. If so, why? Another Hellhound would be better...
Morloq wrote:-2000pts
The scariest thing about this list, for me anyway, is that I was surprised when I read 2000 points at the end. I thought this was a 1500 point list because of how small it is. I realise now that the reason it is so small is because you've just pumped it up with so much bloat and so many strange and mismatched choices.
Again, this isn't a dig at you, I'm not trying to hurt your feelings or make you feel upset or anything, I'm just giving my honest appraisal of the list.
Concluding Overall Thoughts:
This list is a mess. Not the biggest mess I've seen - and I've seen some doosies! - but it is a list that any competent opponent would annihilate without a second thought. It makes loads of fundamental Guard mistakes:
1. Attempts to put soft squishy Officers into
HTH combat where they don't belong.
2. Bloats up units with wargear and equipment.
3. Dilutes the roles of units that should be doing one thing and one thing only.
4. Has little in the way of anti-tank firepower.
5. Has good anti-infantry firepower for a 1200-1500 point Guard list, not a 2000 point list.
6. Has the model count of a 1500 point Guard list. This is such a small army for what you're paying.
7. Has some truly odd decisions that don't make sense like Vet Sergeants that negate the use of Voxes (not that Voxes had much of a use to begin with, but anyway...), Basilisks with no Indirect Fire, Medics in squad that will be wiped out in a single round of combat, and
HTH Command Sections (if there is such a thing)
without Hardened Fighters. I know what I said about Hardened Fighters, but assume for some unknown reason you were going to take it, why would you not give it to the squads you've taken Commissars in? Does that make sense?
8. Voxes. Full stop.
9. Grenade Launchers. Full stop.
10. Missile Launchers. Full stop.
11. Hardened Fighters. Full stop.
12. Commissars. Full stop.
Like a lot of lists that come across my virtual desk, I see the potential here. I see the start of a standard, but good Guard list. It just needs to have the fat hacked off with a Chainfist and a reworking of some of the details, as well as a bit of plugging of gaps (the lack of anti-tank firepower, and the vulnerability of your tanks).
The Rebuild:
This is the part where I rebuild your list. The rebuild is important not because it's a case of "
Here's a good list, now go play" but because it shows you how to take your list and improve upon it. I could just make you a list that
I would use, or that any of the longer-standing Guard players like Centurion99 or Janthkin would use. Doing that, in my mind at least, would be pointless. You wouldn't
learn anything.
One of the biggest problems with people asking '
Build me a list' is that someone makes them a good list and that person assumes that all their problems are solved. That's crap. Handing someone a good list won't win them games. It'll help, but at the end of the day they're not playing their list. They're playing a list they copied from someone else.
So my goal here is to take your list and attempt to make it into something workable whilst keeping the basic structure that you set out. I know you want Rough Riders, I know you want Hellhounds and Russes, and I know you want that damned Basilisk. Handing you a cookie-cutter list serves no purpose, and it would no longer be 'your list'.
That said, as I mentioned before, this list is quite a mess, so despite me wanting to keep the structure of your list intact, for the sake of actually having a good list, some things that you want will be very difficult to include. I am referring specifically to the Sentinels. With the presence of Rough Riders, the need for two Hellhounds, and the fact that Squadroned vehicles are a bad idea in 5th, spreading the Sentinels out over multiple Squadrons isn't an option, and taking 3 in a single Squadron isn't a good idea. I will do what I can, but I can't guarantee that they will stay.
So, here we go, and I will explain my choices at the end:
[ASIDE: Rebuilding your list, it appears your points are wrong. What you've listed above 1826. Even if I give Hardened Fighters to everyone, including the Fire Support Squad(!), it still doesn't reach 2000 points. This is a good thing as it makes rebuilding it about 1000 times easier]
Doctrines
Iron Discipline
Rough Riders
Cameleoline (everything that can have it is assumed to have it)
Veterans
Drop Troops (everything that can have it is assumed to have it)
Command HQ
Junior Officer w/Bolt Pistol + CCW, Honorifica Imperialis, Iron Discipline
Veteran w/Laspistol + CCW, Company Standard
3 Guardsmen w/Lasguns
Fire Support Squad #1
6 Guardsmen w/3 Autocannons
Fire Support Squad #2
6 Guardsmen w/3 Autocannons
Hardened Veteran Squad #1
Veteran Sergeant w/Bolter
1 Hardened Veteran w/Lasgun
3 Hardened Veterans w/Meltaguns
Hardened Veteran Squad #2
Veteran Sergeant w/Bolter
1 Hardened Veteran w/Lasgun
3 Hardened Veterans w/Meltaguns
Hardened Veteran Squad #2
Veteran Sergeant w/Bolter
1 Hardened Veteran w/Lasgun
3 Hardened Veterans w/Meltaguns
Infantry Platoon #1
Platoon Command Section #1.0
Junior Officer w/Laspistol + CCW, Iron Discipline
1 Guardsman w/Lasgun
3 Guardsmen w/Flamers
Squad #1.1
Sergeant w/Laspistol + CCW
1 Guardsman w/Plasma Gun
2 Guardsmen w/Autocannon
6 Guardsmen w/Lasguns
Squad #1.2
Sergeant w/Laspistol + CCW
1 Guardsman w/Plasma Gun
2 Guardsmen w/Autocannon
6 Guardsmen w/Lasguns
Squad #1.3
Sergeant w/Laspistol + CCW
1 Guardsman w/Plasma Gun
2 Guardsmen w/Autocannon
6 Guardsmen w/Lasguns
Infantry Platoon #2
Platoon Command Section #2.0
Junior Officer w/Laspistol + CCW, Iron Discipline
1 Guardsman w/Lasgun
3 Guardsmen w/Flamers
Squad #2.1
Sergeant w/Laspistol + CCW
1 Guardsman w/Flamer
2 Guardsmen w/Heavy Bolter
6 Guardsmen w/Lasguns
Squad #2.2
Sergeant w/Laspistol + CCW
1 Guardsman w/Flamer
2 Guardsmen w/Heavy Bolter
6 Guardsmen w/Lasguns
Squad #2.3
Sergeant w/Laspistol + CCW
1 Guardsman w/Flamer
2 Guardsmen w/Heavy Bolter
6 Guardsmen w/Lasguns
Hellhound #1
Inferno Cannon + Heavy Bolter
Rough Terrain Mods + Extra Armour
Hellhound #2
Inferno Cannon + Heavy Bolter
Rough Terrain Mods + Extra Armour
Rough Riders
6 Rough Riders w/Hunting Lances
Basilisk
Earthshaker Cannon + Heavy Bolter
Indirect Fire
Leman Russ #1
Battlecannon + 3 Heavy Bolters
Leman Russ #2
Battlecannon + 3 Heavy Bolters
2000 Points
At the end of the day, the army needed anti-tank. This is taken care of by the two units with 3 Autocannons each (they handle AV12 and those near it), and the three Meltagun units handle anything that's really tough. Leman Russes, Hellhounds and other infantry units (including the two Flaming Command Sections) handle enemy infantry. Basilisk acts as a trouble-shooter, attacking targets that nothing else can get, immediate threats to your lines, or helping to finish off units. Rough Riders act as counter-assault, hidden by the Hellhounds or Russes, waiting to counter-charge something big and nasty. CHQ hides, unseen somewhere, with squads within 12" of it.
All this necessitated the removal of Sharp Shooters and the Sentinels. Nothing could be done to salvage them.
I would also like to point out that the Cameleoline is costing you 140 points in this list. Dropping the Cameleoline as well as one flamer per Command Section would give you 152 points,
exactly enough for two 76-point
HB/Flamer squads (so you'd lose 3+ cover saves but gain 20 more men and two more Heavy Bolters). I'll leave you to decide if this is worthwhile or not.
I hope you have learnt something today, even if all you do is scream at me for being mean and tell me that you hate me. As long as you learnt something about your list, then my work here is done.
BYE
Red Templars
Radical Inquisitor
