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In chaos space marine codex in page 26 at line 26 I found this sentense: "They are wholly commited to the path they now tread, for good or ill" Does this make atleast some chaos marines good?

Some Marines turn to chaos and become evil. Some Marines just stop following orders from the Imperium and become renegades.

It appears that the intent of the CSM is to allow you to build either a wholly evil/chaos force and/or a 'not good, not evil' renegade force.

So, I'd say that all chaos marines are evil, but not all renegade marines are evil.

Check out the Souldrinkers from Black Library. They're mutated, have been excommunicated from the Imperium, but aren't followers of Chaos (although some seem to fall to that).

Page 26, line 26? Do you realize that the square root of the coefficient of both of these numbers multiplied by the year 2012, divided the number of pages of the Bible and add to that the total sales figures of Iron Maiden's album The Number of the Beast divided by the accumulated minutes of all the movies in the Star Wars saga and it would equal 666! OF COURSE THEIR EVIL!!!!

In all seriousness, it's probably like any kind of "evil", it's all a matter of perspective. Even Hitler probably didn't think of himself as "evil".

All Chaos Space Marines are evil. They betrayed their oaths to the Emperor, and routinely murder and slaughter innocents in the name of their foul gods, Khorne, lord of murder, Slaanesh, Queen of Debauchery, Nurgle, god of plague, and Tzeentch, king of treachery.

The light and glory of the Holy Emperor of Humanity burns away the shadows of the lies the Chaos powers spread, and it is in the Emperor alone that we can find salvation, for He alone is Good.

Come, let us worship the Emperor together
Frankie

They're ok. Not very friendly, but their heart is in the right place. Like an uncle that drinks too much

I always view Chaos marines are part of the dichotomy of the human condition.

Do you follow an unyeilding Emporer who requires the sacrifice of 1000 souls daily, just to stay alive on a throne and "protect" you from chaos? Or do you pray to gods that provide tangible benefits that would help you to purge this false Emporer off his throne, and eventually benefit humanity through acceptance of these real gods.

The Imperial forces utilize the Inquisition, who kills millions of innocent souls just for being on the same planet as a tainted individual.

The Chaos forces slaughter all those who would support the Imperial forces.

it goes back and forth.

I agree that Chaos space marines are evil. But the thing about the 40k universe is that ALL forces and races are evil to a certain extent, or in a different way. I.e. the eldar are selfish and self-preserving manipulators, nids are all consuming mindless (kinda) predators, orks are just belligerent fighters, and the Imperium are bigoted and prone to give in to paranoia and xenophobia. Chaos are evil in the more "true" sense of the word, but no less evil than other armies.

Was it not magnus the red who tried to warn the emporer about hourus and then had there arses kicked by Russ and the SW for there trouble

They were forced to become renegades....

They are probably VERY PISSED OFF but evil NO

They still turned to chaos for survival, particularly tzeentch. I would think that makes them evil, even if it was not intentional.

Also, the term, "...for good or ill...." in this case probably means for benefit or hardship.

mussie76 wrote:Was it not magnus the red who tried to warn the emporer about hourus and then had there arses kicked by Russ and the SW for there trouble

They were forced to become renegades....

They are probably VERY PISSED OFF but evil NO

Yes, it was Magnus, the reason why he was branded a heretic is that he was practicing sorcerey after the Emporer decreed it heresy to do so.

To complete FoxPhoenix135's list the tau sterilise as many humans as possible, the necrons want to kill everything,the dark eldar are really evil. So there are no "goodies" and a lot of "baddies"

Yeah I would say those are accurate.

illuknisaa wrote:In chaos space marine codex in page 26 at line 26 I found this sentense: "They are wholly commited to the path they now tread, for good or ill" Does this make atleast some chaos marines good?

Good and Evil are opinions. For instance, the British back in the day considered the Norse to be evil. But to me they were just making their way in the world. So CSM are neither good nor evil, just friggin' awesome.

oggers wrote: To complete FoxPhoenix135's list the tau sterilise as many humans as possible, the necrons want to kill everything,the dark eldar are really evil. So there are no "goodies" and a lot of "baddies"

Other than the dawn of war games, is there any other background support for the Tau sterilizing humans? Just curious.

IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FAR FUTURE THERE IS NO GOOD OR EVIL, ONLY GRIM DARKYNESS

Well...

World Eaters just like to hit things. Does not make them evil.

Emperor's Children rape everyone and use each other as toilets. They're evil all right.

Death Guard are loonies who think they're happy. Not evil.

Thousand Sons... Well, the Adeptus Dustbusterus thinks they're evil.

Chaos are NOT ALL evil. Like others have pointed out some just dont want to follow that dead corpse that live off 1000 lives per day to stay alive ( talk about stem cell issue but worse!)

And lets say ( just example ) 40k dont have Jesus and God.

But they do have chaos demon / gods. And the only one that replied to their death cries are.... chaos.

Whats chaos... they are in every way "human" I know thats not how Space Marines should behave but...

I posted a thread about good chaos a while back... search it if you will, but don't post. It must be nearly a year old by now.

Yes, they are evil. A renegade Marine may not be evil, he may even believe himself to be doing the right thing. There's even fluff of two Chapters from the Badab war being granted forgiveness by the Imperium and taking up penance crusades.

But a Chaos Marine is evil, pure and simple. They follow the Chaos Gods, which are the embodiment of the dark parts of a mortal being's psyche. Khorne is the blood god, the lord of skulls. He is the god of war, of hatred, of violence. Slaanesh is the dark prince, the god of selfish pleasures, of personal enjoyment, of dark experiences. Nugrle is the plague lord, the father of decay, the lord of pestilence and death. And Tzeentch is the changer of ways, the lord of fate, the master of change.

Sure, there may be neutral or even good parts of each god, but they were created by the dark corners of a mortal beings mind. A warrior may respect martial prowess and honor in battle, and may start following Khorne because of this. But to take that path to the end, they end up like Kharn: a mindless killer who worships his god by spilling blood and taking skulls and even if he died, it would be a sacrifice to Khorne. A person may start following Slaanesh to be able to get the charisma to lead a planet, or to experience new things, but in the end they will be depraved individuals how exist only to pleasure themselves no matter what the cost. One may cry out to Nurgle to save them from a plague, only to become a harbinger of death themselves. Or they may follow Tzeentch to gain power or to weave fate, but they will become plotters and schemers who exist only to further the plots of their god, no matter the price. There is no good end to worshipping the Chaos powers, only evil.

A Chaos Marine is evil. He renounced his oaths of loyalty, he took up worship of evil beings, he slaughtered thousands, if not millions in their names and he knows that his only end is death or elevation to deamonhood, where he will fight for his god for eternity spilling blood in their name.

But it's a fun path to get there.

I was reading an article on Wikipedia (the general Space Marine page) and they had a list of the Legions who turned to Chaos during the Horus Heresy. And one, the Alpha Legion, viewed themselves as still serving the Emperor. Now of course, they might not be good, but this does lend evidence to the idea that while some CSM are so corrupted by Chaos they are evil, but that some have just chosen a wrong path that has askew d their views and such.

Keep in mind, the Imperium is not 'good' either, although parts of it are.

personaly the orks are the least evil there just stupid ok very stupid they just break stuff and ya people get killed by them but to them its just fun oh and CSM are not all evil but slannesh should be killed no dout along with his fallowers

LiberatedObject wrote:I was reading an article on Wikipedia (the general Space Marine page) and they had a list of the Legions who turned to Chaos during the Horus Heresy. And one, the Alpha Legion, viewed themselves as still serving the Emperor. Now of course, they might not be good, but this does lend evidence to the idea that while some CSM are so corrupted by Chaos they are evil, but that some have just chosen a wrong path that has askew d their views and such.

Alpha Legion didn't view themselves as still serving the Emperor, IIRC. They actually relished the chance to test themselves against the older legions and greatly enjoyed the chance to fight the Ultramarines soon after the Heresy.

Evil-morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.

“Morally” implies some type of choice between conflicting codes of conduct. We 21st Century humans have a set of morals that define good and evil. Animals do not. A lion is not evil or good. I suppose a Tyranid cannot be evil, it’s actions are not choosen according to a moral code. Orks probably are not either. Orks live to fight. That is their genetic makeup, there is no offsetting “good” Ork code to make a judgement. Eldar do have a relatively “good” civilization, and a really evil one. The exhibit to codes of conduct. The same goes for Chaos. Humans who turn to chaos are making a willful choice to follow an evil cause. Now, if a person was born on a Chaos planet, and never knew any other ways, are they evil? The answer is yes. It would be the same to ask if a person who was born to a “good” society, and knows only good, is infact a good person. Both may be acting out of ignorance, but we are able to assign the labels good and evil to their actions and morals because there is are two codes to choose from.

Gobbla wrote:Evil-morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.

“Morally” implies some type of choice between conflicting codes of conduct. We 21st Century humans have a set of morals that define good and evil. Animals do not. A lion is not evil or good. I suppose a Tyranid cannot be evil, it’s actions are not choosen according to a moral code. Orks probably are not either. Orks live to fight. That is their genetic makeup, there is no offsetting “good” Ork code to make a judgement. Eldar do have a relatively “good” civilization, and a really evil one. The exhibit to codes of conduct. The same goes for Chaos. Humans who turn to chaos are making a willful choice to follow an evil cause. Now, if a person was born on a Chaos planet, and never knew any other ways, are they evil? The answer is yes. It would be the same to ask if a person who was born to a “good” society, and knows only good, is infact a good person. Both may be acting out of ignorance, but we are able to assign the labels good and evil to their actions and morals because there is are two codes to choose from.

I've been reading through all the posts so far and this has been the most acurate [empisise the word most!] but is not entierly true so ill patch it up a bit....
Looking on what is good and evil is a matter of your own opinion!!!! e.g. with the war on terror the Terrorist view most of the western world [mostly Americans] as evil and so kill them in the name of good. And on the other end the western world views the terrorist as evil because they kill inocent people. Now IMHO yes they are evil but that is my view, it doesnt make them truly evil but it does for me. So depending on how you look at Chaos will influence your decision on wheither or not they are evil.

NOW Chaos is not truly evil, they are beyond evil hence the name Chaos!!!!!
Mostly people view Chaos as bad because it is the opposite of order. So it is also a question of wheither or not you support Order or Chaos.

Bugsfromhell wrote:

Gobbla wrote:Evil-morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.

“Morally” implies some type of choice between conflicting codes of conduct. We 21st Century humans have a set of morals that define good and evil. Animals do not. A lion is not evil or good. I suppose a Tyranid cannot be evil, it’s actions are not choosen according to a moral code. Orks probably are not either. Orks live to fight. That is their genetic makeup, there is no offsetting “good” Ork code to make a judgement. Eldar do have a relatively “good” civilization, and a really evil one. The exhibit to codes of conduct. The same goes for Chaos. Humans who turn to chaos are making a willful choice to follow an evil cause. Now, if a person was born on a Chaos planet, and never knew any other ways, are they evil? The answer is yes. It would be the same to ask if a person who was born to a “good” society, and knows only good, is infact a good person. Both may be acting out of ignorance, but we are able to assign the labels good and evil to their actions and morals because there is are two codes to choose from.

I've been reading through all the posts so far and this has been the most acurate [empisise the word most!] but is not entierly true so ill patch it up a bit....
Looking on what is good and evil is a matter of your own opinion!!!! e.g. with the war on terror the Terrorist view most of the western world [mostly Americans] as evil and so kill them in the name of good. And on the other end the western world views the terrorist as evil because they kill inocent people. Now IMHO yes they are evil but that is my view, it doesnt make them truly evil but it does for me. So depending on how you look at Chaos will influence your decision on wheither or not they are evil.

NOW Chaos is not truly evil, they are beyond evil hence the name Chaos!!!!!
Mostly people view Chaos as bad because it is the opposite of order. So it is also a question of wheither or not you support Order or Chaos.

The Chaos Gods are truly evil. The Chaos Gods were created from the dark emotions of the mortal psyche. War and hatred created Khorne, fear of death and decay created Nurgle, lust for power and the ability to control created Tzeentch and the Eldar sitting around doing everything that moved created Slaanesh.

Chaos in itself is not evil as you said, it is the opposite of order. The big four gods howerver, are evil. They were created by dark and evil emotions. Their followers willingly kill in their names and they are rewarded for it. A sorcerer of the Thousand Sons isn't rewarded for studying and gaining knowledge, he is rewarded for taking that knowledge and using it to further his gods' plots. A Berzerker of the World Eaters isn't rewarded for fighting with honor and dignity. He is rewarded for reaping skulls for his god, no matter friend of foe.

The gods are evil, even their followers in the fluff call them the dark gods. The road to hell is paved with good intentions afterall.

Are the Chaos Gods really evil, or is this a misconception based on their followers? As they are created by cumulating emotions, maybe this could change them? Maybe Khorne was/is a god of honour and martial prowess rather than a maniac who wants to kill anyone. Maybe Slaanesh is a god of love and passion rather than decadence and depravity. I see this as being a strong probability of what the gods really are.

That's from my old thread regarding 'good Chaos'. Think on it.

I do believe some of them originally had good intentions but ultimately Chaos corrupts. But at least they don't try to sugar coat it like the Loyalists do (the Imperium is evil, don't deny it) and at least the Chaos Gods give you cool powers before they eat your soul.

illuknisaa wrote:In chaos space marine codex in page 26 at line 26 I found this sentense: "They are wholly commited to the path they now tread, for good or ill" Does this make atleast some chaos marines good?

Those are words written by heritics, there is no confusion.