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I just came across an insert on Page 7 of the IG codex that says that the Imperial Guard's "counterparts who serve in the fighting force of their home world", presumably PDF, are "perceived by some Guardsmen as having little combat experience". It then goes on to state that "This is, of course, far from the truth" and that "these brave soldiers fight and die just as well as their comrades in the Imperial Guard", which doesn't seem to fit with the horrible reputation garnered by PDF regiments or the frequency with which they rebel. Anyone care to submit evidence for or against the valor of the Planetary Defense Forces?

It also goes on to say something like "This notion is caused simply by the fact that PDF troops are of a permanent station, and have not engaged in any crusades or campaigns as their comrades in the Guard have. It is little indication of their training."

Which means generally it's just arrogance on the part of the Imperial Guard.

Would the Cadians be considered PDF as they have to defend their homeworld in addition to supplying troops to the Imperial Guard?

I have some fiction at home and I'll skim through em to find you examples....I'm at work right now.

Most regiments of the Imperial Guard are recruited from the PDF. Depending on the tithe level of the world in question, the local Imperial Governor ( or equivalent ) must send a certain percentage of his troops to Imperial service. These units must meet certain minimum standards. If the Governor doesn´t fullfill his obligations he will be punished ( up to and including execution ).

So the basic matter ( basic training, equipment etc ) is the same but the units inducted to the IG can gain more experience over time. As always there are exceptions on planets where there are ongoing conflicts ( like Cadia ).

Doombot001 wrote:Would the Cadians be considered PDF as they have to defend their homeworld in addition to supplying troops to the Imperial Guard?

To a degree. Cadia follows a more current-day style, where they have active and reserve (PDF) regiments. Because of the standing army status, and the nearly 1:1 Civilian:Soldier ratio of Cadia, the PDF of Cadia are sometimes sent on offensive missions to nearby planets in the immediate vicinity, so their PDF and Guard forces are more or less matched in terms of experience, and most Guard Regiments hold a healthy deal of respect for Cadian PDF troopers.

Owain wrote:I just came across an insert on Page 7 of the IG codex that says that the Imperial Guard's "counterparts who serve in the fighting force of their home world", presumably PDF, are "perceived by some Guardsmen as having little combat experience". It then goes on to state that "This is, of course, far from the truth" and that "these brave soldiers fight and die just as well as their comrades in the Imperial Guard", which doesn't seem to fit with the horrible reputation garnered by PDF regiments or the frequency with which they rebel. Anyone care to submit evidence for or against the valor of the Planetary Defense Forces?

The strength of the PDF depends on their betters, its usually the fault of the governor/government of a planet when the PDF fails
in their duty to the Imperium.
Look at armageddon. the PDF was wasted, but when the marines took over command, the survivors of the PDF fought as they should have from the beginning. Unable "wastes of the emperors valuable ressources" are the main threat for a PDF.
If they get training and get motivated and equipped appropriate, any PDF trooper may gather experience and could deserve some respect
for his daily work, but often the "professionals"(IG) didnt see the value of someone taking the garrison job while they can die honorable in his name.

The PDF's can be well trained, but they very seldom have any combat experence, and as soon as they get action and are veterans, the get tithed into the IG. The PDF is also loyal to their home planet and governor, and when the planet is infltrated or rebels, the PDF goes with it, leading to mistrust and general unreliability.

I really like the way the Ciaphas Cain novels handled this distinction. The Guard guys sneer at PDF because Guard Troopers are more world-wise. After all, your average PDF'er wouldn't know an ork from a necron from an eldar. The upper echelons of Guard command (commissars, generals, lord generals, etc.) tend to hold the same opinion, but every once in awhile, as happened on one planet in the books, they get pleasantly surprised. The average pdf soldier doesn't have the same amount of experience - since the Guard go from one battlefield to the next - but sometimes they are drilled and trained well enough to be competent.

For the record, considering that Guardsmen are always fighting, I've always thought that their rules should represent a more veteran formation than the "wall of meat and ablative wounds" as which they are presented. I mean, catching bullets is a job for the PDF and civilians - the Emperor's Guardsmen need concern themselves with purging the unclean!

In Gaunt's Ghosts - "Necropolis", the Vervunhive PDF were very good soldiers, and generally were held in great respect by the Guard forces. It all depends on their quality.

Guard are drawn from the best of the PDF, so a guardsman would likely look down on a PDF trooper as someone who didn't make the cut. There's also the experience issue that's already been noted. On the flip side PDF units will usually be fighting at full strength, having ready access to reinforcement, and they know their homeworld as if they'd lived there their whole lives.

On the down side a PDF might not actually be big enough to fight off an invasion force

The Imperium being what it is, I imagine PDF forces don't get to sit around smoking lho sticks and drinking beer. Most planets that provide tithes in the form of troops have a sustainable population rate and a large population. Except for a few "paradise" planets which make up far less than one percent of Imperial worlds, most planets are pressure cookers of unrest and violence. Your average PDF trooper would be a real hardcase compared to most modern day armed forces or homeguard. Most worlds are not ideal for life anyway, and the Imperium makes worlds even more hellish. Temperature extremes, toxic atmospheres, high gravity, corpse starch rations, repressive dogmatic government and religion. Make one mistake, say one wrong thing, and it's a bullet in the head. But at least it's home...

PDF troopers might have a higher survivablility rate than guardsmen, in general. Most of the fighting done by PDF would be against other humans, whereas guardsmen are frequently sent into battle against foes they have no real chance against. That said, I figure there may be more veteran PDF troops percentage wise than veteran guardsmen.

On the downside, if the tithing world is required to send their best regiments offworld, then experienced soldiers would be rotated off planet as soon as they were worth something. The PDF would also be ill prepared to deal with any kind of alien invasion, being used to human foes only. I imagine the average PDF trooper also gets even less of a briefing than the a guardsman as to what they are actually facing, so the casualty rate must be enormous when a world is attacked by xenos or chaos.

I'm just glad this is a game...

I guess it depends what planet you're on.

The PDF on Ultramar probably don't see much action. (except for the whole 'nid thing...)

The PDF in some pirate/ork/chaos infested backwater probably have plenty of experience.

PDF are also the designated peacekeepers (I don't know how they fit in with adeptus arbites though) and they are also responsible for suppresing any riots or rebellions on the planet (or system). You could have spent your whole life in the PDF fighting rebel tribesmen, and be everybit as hard-bitten as a real guardsmen, it's just that you haven't fought off-planet.

Emperors Faithful wrote:PDF are also the designated peacekeepers (I don't know how they fit in with adeptus arbites though)

Because not all worlds have an Arbites precinct, because some worlds have an inadequate number of Arbites on them, or because there are likely worlds where the rebellious elements of the population are too strong for the Arbites, and they need something with more mustard.

PDF are also commanded by the ruling powers on the planet, they are a standing defensive army like the national guard, the Arbites are like the FBI in power armour who take their orders from the Imperium and Terra.

As said earlier, PDFs will vary massively just as the worlds they come from vary, many might not even have gunpowder weaponry let alone lasguns. Others on permanent defensive on a highly advanced world with AdMech affiliations, might well be armed to the teeth and individual capability will be dependant on the hostility of the planet and the neighbourhood it's located in.

Cadia has no PDF, actually. They've made that very clear before, just as they have no real Arbites presence either.

Instead, they have the Interior Guard, which are regiments raised and trained exclusively for the purpose of operating on Cadia in a role for hunting out Cultists and the like. From what I remember, they either take members from devastated regiments and combine them, or just start the founding itself.

But I can't find my Eye of Terror sourcebook anymore, so can't say :(

Yea, which is why I said they aren't traditional "PDF". Because they don't follow the textbook definition of a PDF. They're more like modern day reserve regiments.

Krak_kirby wrote:Your average PDF trooper would be a real hardcase compared to most modern day armed forces or homeguard.

Which in itself says a lot! At the risk of being contentious, I can fairly say that the current U.S. Armed Forces is a pretty rough group, although I cannot speak for militaries of other nations. The standards of people that are allowed in have significantly been lowered over the past decade, and the crime rate around major military bases (which was already above the national average), skyrocketed.

I think it is fair to assume that the PDF being the "lower cut" of the soldiers, makes them a pretty group of undesirables.

The Guard regiments are not the "Creme-de-le-creme" of the PDF (at least, not always) thye are simply decended from them. For all we know the selection process could be completely random, or done due to practicality.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The Guard regiments are not the "Creme-de-le-creme" of the PDF (at least, not always) thye are simply decended from them. For all we know the selection process could be completely random, or done due to practicality.

Politics, pure and simple . Let us say that the Adeptus Munitorum sends an order to Lord Hax to mobilize three regiments for the Guard. Lord Hax obviously must comply and provide troops that meet the Munitorum standards but he might have some leeway in the selection process.

The first chosen regiment might have officers that belong to families that are political opponents of his. The men of the second regiment are listed as "potential problem cases". You get the point. Sending troops to Imperial service is a good excuse to "clean house". This is all dependent on the level of control the local Governor has on the selection process. The Adeptus Munitorum might just look through the TO&E of the PDF and inform the Governor that they want regiments A, C and Y.

As for the arbites question from the fluff I read I always got the impression that they were more involved in investigating plantetary governers and the PDF than what we would class as policing.

PDF are generally very good, with many of the forces being ones which captured the worlds themselves. If you read the Killing Ground, you will see that the PDF there were the people who liberated the planet, so they're pretty good soldiers. A lot of the new soldiers that are taken up by the Imperium are normally posted to a newly-liberated world, where they will get a bit of fighting in, without getting too many of their numbers killed.

MC

The Devourer wrote:As for the arbites question from the fluff I read I always got the impression that they were more involved in investigating plantetary governers and the PDF than what we would class as policing.

The Arbites are the Imperium-spanning Police Force. Each planet may have their own police force or their PDF may that enforce local laws as well as Imperial ones, as the Arbites are generally a smaller presence on a planet, and are often used as a counter to extreme circumstances, like Riots, Gang wars, etc...

Think of the Arbites like the RCMP here in Canada. They're a nation-wide Police Force, but most cities also have a municipal police force as well.

"In any case, should the tithe be of unacceptable quality, the Imperial Governor's life is forfeit. For this reason those soldiers selected for the Imperial guard tend to be drawn from the elite of the planet's troops." p8 5th ed guard dex.

Thats why PDF are looked down upon they weren't selected for IG.

You might throw your political opponents in the guard, but they better have a good co and ncos.. otherwise you (as a governor) might find your mistress turns into a callidus assassin.

@ A-P from the look of the guard dex the governor has total control of what he sends as tithe.

That also makes sense considering some of the PDF units seen in the Cain series; the elite PDF got shipped off and the political opponents and the less able soldiers were what was left to deal with Tau and rioters.

Of course with guardsmen there is all but no distinction between man to man. I doubt very much that each soldier is measured up to see whether they are worthy to join the IG or must stick with PDF. (Especially those huge worlds with millions upon millions of recruits at any single time)

The Devourer wrote:As for the arbites question from the fluff I read I always got the impression that they were more involved in investigating plantetary governers and the PDF than what we would class as policing.

The Adeptus Arbites are more like a federal force. They'll have a small presence on a planet and deal with high-up crimes against the Imperium, or it's functionaries. Various sources make it clear that Imperial Worlds are expected to have their own constabulary, which is why Necromunda has 'Enforcers'. The Arbites don't care if a civilian gets murdered or mugged, that's a job for the local law enforcement, but they DO care if the planetary govenor is withholding tithes, or not governing efficiently.

The PDF do not enforce law, per se. They are a Defense Force, who fight against enemies of the Imperium, alien invaders and the like. They probably get drafted in for MAJOR situations, just like the police might bring in the army for MAJOR riots. On a peaceful planet, this may mean that they are untested, but on somewhere like Mordia, they've probably got more experience than regular guardsmen.

Of course, planets vary wildly in the Imperium. A planet with no ability to fund it's own constabulary might just use the PDF instead. In another situation, Hydraphur (in the Shira Calpurnia novels) is such a busy and important Imperial port that it has no local law enforcement, just a massive Arbites presence.

The Guard, on the other hand, are probably not any better than the PDF. As someone already pointed out, the worst the PDF usually face is human cultists. The Guard on the other hand get thrown into no-win situations against a lot more dangerous opponents. I'd bet that MOST guardsmen don't even make it through their first campaign. But I bet most PDF troopers do...

Che-Vito wrote:

Krak_kirby wrote:Your average PDF trooper would be a real hardcase compared to most modern day armed forces or homeguard.

Which in itself says a lot! At the risk of being contentious, I can fairly say that the current U.S. Armed Forces is a pretty rough group, although I cannot speak for militaries of other nations. The standards of people that are allowed in have significantly been lowered over the past decade, and the crime rate around major military bases (which was already above the national average), skyrocketed.

I'm sure on some chart somewhere that makes sense but practically I have to disagree with that assessment. We have rough edges but are not a 'rough group' like you're implying. Our standards are not what they where during the post-Cold War draw downs over ten years ago as those standards were set up to shrink the services to a more economical size. So yes, the military in a time of war has different entrance standards than one in time of budget cuts.

There was a time (let's call it the 80's) when there where parts of Naval Station Norfolk you couldn't cut through at night without the possiblity of being mugged (such as the parking lot). That time is gone. The days of prison or service as they where are pretty much gone, especially in the Navy and I'm pretty sure the Air Force never had that problem. Our bases, and I've been on my fare share of them of them from all branches of service, are not the demilitarized zones you describe. Don't believe all the garbage they print in the news about us.

Napalm wrote:I'm sure on some chart somewhere that makes sense but practically I have to disagree with that assessment. We have rough edges but are not a 'rough group' like you're implying.

Read below, I won't go into specific details on this...but I have had to deal with several members (mainly Marines, and Army) of the service in my line of work, and several in my personal life...who have been morons. Please note, I am not implying that all service members, or even the majority are this way.. But in my experience, the bad apples are widespread enough to make the overall picture, from the outside, not pretty.

Napalm wrote:Don't believe all the garbage they print in the news about us.

I don't. I've known a handful of service members who would agree on my comment (to be fair, they are drawn from the Marines, Kentucky National Guard, and New Hampshire National Guard....so I have no idea about the other services). The other thought I base that on is from a family friend that is a Colonel in the Marines, who specifically told me not to enlist...ever...due to some of the people that slip in.