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How much would it cost to construct an entirely new terminator armor?

In fluff/40k terms the technology is beyond even the adepts of Mars. every suit is revered, much like dreadnoughts. You wouldn't see Forgeworlds producing any or any chapter forges either, just maintaining what they have got.

They are priceless artefacts.

Like burning said. Remaining suits are relics if anything. They can maintain and repair most suits but entirely fabricating a fresh one would be extremely rare if its done at all. Requiring techniques and materials either lost or very rare to come by at this stage of the imperium.

Damn lexicanum let me down. It hinted that they were still construct-able.

Well how about modifications, i.e. reshape to bigger or smaller, or add armaments, are the worthless technomagi able to do that?

OK how did they loose the tech to make a termie suit or armour.... What the techno magi were smoking a bowl or two and said hell this stuff will be great... some one write it down....

That piece of parhment was lost in the fold of time and space??or were the squats the only race able to make termie armour... and the Emperor didnt like out sourcing his weapons systems??

This is one of those instances where fluff doesnt really support fluff. If terminator armor is now impossible to create where do all the new founding chapters get theirs? Engagements where space marine terminators are lost how can they recover those losses for 10,000 years? How did the GKs manage to get over 100 suits of terminator armor (first battle of armegeddon). There is no plausible way that after 10,000 years they would have any terminator armor if they had no way to reproduce it. Even if you could repair 80% of damaged terminator armor their is still no way you would have over 1000 chapters of marines with access to terminator armor.

Enron wrote:This is one of those instances where fluff doesnt really support fluff. If terminator armor is now impossible to create where do all the new founding chapters get theirs? Engagements where space marine terminators are lost how can they recover those losses for 10,000 years? How did the GKs manage to get over 100 suits of terminator armor (first battle of armegeddon). There is no plausible way that after 10,000 years they would have any terminator armor if they had no way to reproduce it. Even if you could repair 80% of damaged terminator armor their is still no way you would have over 1000 chapters of marines with access to terminator armor.

Battle of McCragge much?

Che-Vito wrote:

Enron wrote:This is one of those instances where fluff doesnt really support fluff. If terminator armor is now impossible to create where do all the new founding chapters get theirs? Engagements where space marine terminators are lost how can they recover those losses for 10,000 years? How did the GKs manage to get over 100 suits of terminator armor (first battle of armegeddon). There is no plausible way that after 10,000 years they would have any terminator armor if they had no way to reproduce it. Even if you could repair 80% of damaged terminator armor their is still no way you would have over 1000 chapters of marines with access to terminator armor.

Battle of McCragge much?

Yeah ultramarines lost their entire 1st company, still it's running quite nicely.

How about chaos marines, do they know how to create their termie suits or are they just really old remnants from pre-heresy?

Enron makes a point, regardless of particular bits of fluff here and there. If they can not be reproduced, and your going to have losses, over the course of 10,000 years, you're going to lost most of them. Lost in the warp, boarding actions where they didn't get out before the ship blew up, ripped to shreds by power weapons and rending claws to the point where it's beyond repair, they're going to get used up to the point where you don't have enough to field them except in the most dire of circumstances.

So there has to be some way to make more. Doesn't mean it's not costly or time consuming, it could be that the various pieces are made in entirely seperate locations, and they don't want to send their blueprints by warpship and risk losing them, so the manufacturing process takes years with all the transport required to fully assemble things. That would make more sense, and give interesting reasons for ship based combat, planetary raids, desperate battles to hold factories safe, etc. As it is, no chapter would have more than a handful left in good condition, and they'd only use them in the direst of circumstances, not include them in every assault force.

Rewision wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Enron wrote:This is one of those instances where fluff doesnt really support fluff. If terminator armor is now impossible to create where do all the new founding chapters get theirs? Engagements where space marine terminators are lost how can they recover those losses for 10,000 years? How did the GKs manage to get over 100 suits of terminator armor (first battle of armegeddon). There is no plausible way that after 10,000 years they would have any terminator armor if they had no way to reproduce it. Even if you could repair 80% of damaged terminator armor their is still no way you would have over 1000 chapters of marines with access to terminator armor.

Battle of McCragge much?

Yeah ultramarines lost their entire 1st company, still it's running quite nicely.

How about chaos marines, do they know how to create their termie suits or are they just really old remnants from pre-heresy?

I believe it took roughly 200 years to do so...but one cannot discern how much of that time was taken by replacing equipment, men, etc, etc, etc.

I've always assumed that Terminator Armor was an artisan thing, and with the technomagi so jealous of their abilities you would have to know big people who owe you to requisition them. Simular to the way that artificer armor is. This is said to be 'lost' because there is no written record and the only people who know how they work flat out refuse to document or teach anyone else, anyone in the software development field will know what these people are like.

This explains why new chapters, who are founded by the High Lords of Terra anyway, have no trouble getting their first set but might have issues finding replacments.

I agree with the artisan theory, maybe youve go to be of one of the highest levels of the adept mech before the secrets of how to construct termie armour are taught to you. It'd also explain why some inquisitors can get it to, they wouldn't fit into the original suits cos they were designed for astartes so they must of had theirs constructed for them specifically

I'll have to cite the wonderful Grey Knights again for this one.

The Grey Knights were made after the Horus Heresy, which means that their equipment was also made after the Heresy. Unlike other terminator armour, the Aegis models have an entirely different appearance and features. For that reason, they'd have to have been made seperatly from the other models. And considering the circumstances of the Grey Knights, that probably came after the Heresy as well.

Remember, that the tech to create TDA is considered "Now" to be lost, "now" is generally refered to as the very end of the 41st millenia.

It is easily understood that the tech may have been lost say in the year 37,000 and that the last 3,000 years have been only replacing and repairing existing suits.

Demogerg wrote:Remember, that the tech to create TDA is considered "Now" to be lost, "now" is generally refered to as the very end of the 41st millenia.

It is easily understood that the tech may have been lost say in the year 37,000 and that the last 3,000 years have been only replacing and repairing existing suits.

still doesn't explain the battle of Macragge. That happened only a mere 200 years from the present 40k date. And they lost their entire company to tyranids, there can't be much armor left after that (which they completely rebuilt their 1st company). I always assumed that only the highest grades of the technomagi know how to create them. Which means they are only created by actual full up forgeworlds, or even only on Mars itself. Which means you only have maybe a few dozen or so techpriest dudes creating armor that takes months to years to due one suit (probably only hand built) for nearly 1000 chapters while doing their normal duties too, which means they only work on them in their spare time. Obviously if you have more pull with Mars (Iron hands, mentors, etc...) or have pretty superior political pull (Ultramarines, Imperial fists, etc...)then you could probably requisition more faster.

However Dark angels and pretty much most of their successors (quite a few of them too) can field an entire terminator armored 1st company. Which means they have a butt load of them by some other means.

padixon wrote:

Demogerg wrote:Remember, that the tech to create TDA is considered "Now" to be lost, "now" is generally refered to as the very end of the 41st millenia.

It is easily understood that the tech may have been lost say in the year 37,000 and that the last 3,000 years have been only replacing and repairing existing suits.

still doesn't explain the battle of Macragge. That happened only a mere 200 years from the present 40k date. And they lost their entire company to tyranids, there can't be much armor left after that (which they completely rebuilt their 1st company). I always assumed that only the highest grades of the technomagi know how to create them. Which means they are only created by actual full up forgeworlds, or even only on Mars itself. Which means you only have maybe a few dozen or so techpriest dudes creating armor that takes months to years to due one suit (probably only hand built) for nearly 1000 chapters while doing their normal duties too, which means they only work on them in their spare time. Obviously if you have more pull with Mars (Iron hands, mentors, etc...) or have pretty superior political pull (Ultramarines, Imperial fists, etc...)then you could probably requisition more faster.

However Dark angels and pretty much most of their successors (quite a few of them too) can field an entire terminator armored 1st company. Which means they have a butt load of them by some other means.

Inventory reserves?
spare parts from suits broken from before the tech was lost?

I'll just think of it like in space hulk, where the blood angels fielded an entire chapter's worth of terminator armor during the great crusade. So that means there was alot thrown around back then and only now are supplies dwindling

Demogerg wrote:

padixon wrote:

Demogerg wrote:Remember, that the tech to create TDA is considered "Now" to be lost, "now" is generally refered to as the very end of the 41st millenia.

It is easily understood that the tech may have been lost say in the year 37,000 and that the last 3,000 years have been only replacing and repairing existing suits.

still doesn't explain the battle of Macragge. That happened only a mere 200 years from the present 40k date. And they lost their entire company to tyranids, there can't be much armor left after that (which they completely rebuilt their 1st company). I always assumed that only the highest grades of the technomagi know how to create them. Which means they are only created by actual full up forgeworlds, or even only on Mars itself. Which means you only have maybe a few dozen or so techpriest dudes creating armor that takes months to years to due one suit (probably only hand built) for nearly 1000 chapters while doing their normal duties too, which means they only work on them in their spare time. Obviously if you have more pull with Mars (Iron hands, mentors, etc...) or have pretty superior political pull (Ultramarines, Imperial fists, etc...)then you could probably requisition more faster.

However Dark angels and pretty much most of their successors (quite a few of them too) can field an entire terminator armored 1st company. Which means they have a butt load of them by some other means.

Inventory reserves?
spare parts from suits broken from before the tech was lost?

That's a lot of spare parts...I'll have to vote for the contradiction theory. I always found the battle of Macragger a bit odd. As mentioned before all those terminator suits lost...even if they had the spare parts I doubt they'd be able to field anything close to a full strength company. I mean they are spare parts for a reason...usually meaning that they you'd need a suit that isn't completely destroyed, by means of acid or just generally shreded to bit, to put them in. I mean let's say you have two suits. Both suits get wrecked, but 50% of their components are still useable. Put those together and you get a new suit. Now if you kept doing this -on the assumption you had more suits than two- you'd continue to have less and less suits...that is the issue with the spare parts theory.

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:werds.

The 40k timeline is odd, its odd in that time does not move in relation to "our" time. it will never reach the year 41,000 in warhammer 40k.

because this game is a closed-timeline system there is the definate possibility that after the year 41,000 most space marine chapters will be nearly out of terminator armor, but for fluff purposes all of the existing chapters have enough suits to last untill at least that time.

This is one of those instances where fluff doesnt really support fluff. If terminator armor is now impossible to create where do all the new founding chapters get theirs? Engagements where space marine terminators are lost how can they recover those losses for 10,000 years? How did the GKs manage to get over 100 suits of terminator armor (first battle of armegeddon). There is no plausible way that after 10,000 years they would have any terminator armor if they had no way to reproduce it. Even if you could repair 80% of damaged terminator armor their is still no way you would have over 1000 chapters of marines with access to terminator armor.

Spot on!
The art of making high tech isnt lost, its just carefully guarded by the most powerful forges.

An even bigger proof of this are the countless improvements and manufacturing of wargear since the heresy, old time and less poerful TDA suits were phased out for the current better types! How could this be if the art of making them was "lost".
Same goes for vehicle chassies plasma weapons, suspensor tech etc etc and we all heard that anti grav tech "too" was lost and plasma tech is almost extinct. Nah, seen and read to many fluff instances of entire IG regiments swimming in plasma guns to belive anything is truly "lost".

Hell, if they can build even better termie suits then they did n the heresy era and if tehy can build freaking titan legions (a "tad" more advanced then a dreadnought or a TDA suit) then there is no such thing as lost tech other then the nigh "magical" tech from the TRUE dark ages of technology.

The Chinese can backwards-engineer and produce at half cost nearly anything we can make in the US, in a very short period of time.

You have to suspend logic to think that nobody could figure out how to make a suit of Terminator armor, given the fact that they can crank out Power Armor like it's nothing. Let's see: thicker armor, better materials, more powerful suit to support it...there. Terminator armor.

in each chapter there are 31 terminator sets of armour, 20 for veterans 1 for each captain and one special one for a chapter master

if a terminator armoured squad/soldier is killed, then the entire strikefore deploys to defend the dieing body so that the armour may be repaired.

It also has Cyto-repair, so it does the same thing that MEQ's

it's also important to remember that terminator armour has a fragment of the emperors armour, so it's impossible to recreate it. (kept in the crux.)

Any armour may be upgraded to terminator armour, given that it's blessed by omanissah.

What happens when a strike force is wiped or a planet destroyed or terminator armor is captured or a chapter is lost in the warp ect. ect. ect. out how would they recover something then?

We do not know how big or how many fragments the emperors armor is rendered into. It could be a million pieces for all we know.

I have never read anything about a Cyto-repair capability can you source this?

Power armor is vastly different from terminator armor starting from the way it is created to how it is manufactured. Power armor cannot simply be upgraded to Terminator armor thats not the way it works. We cant turn an AK-47 into a rocket laucher can we?

Enron wrote: We cant turn an AK-47 into a rocket laucher can we?

Yes, yes you can. It's called a rifle grenade....

That aside, if BL = fluff, then the development/deployment of Tactical Dreadnought Armor took place long after the end of the unification wars, and even after the big E LEFT the great crusade to go fiddle with the webway back on planet Erf... Which means that, unless the tech was lost in the scrapcode attacks during the martian civil war, it's not "Lost" technology at all. The AdMech are obscenely meticulous with their keeping of gathered knowledge. Furthermore, the Crux Terminatus is not present on all sets of termie armor, such as those belonging to the Chaos Legions, who should, by rights, only have a limited availability to this armor, don't wear it, and they still get the same 2+/5++ save.

Is it rare and difficult to build? Yes. Is it a "lost" technology? Probably not.

In case this hasn't already been said, BEFORE the horus heresy, all space marines wore termie armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Solon wrote:in each chapter there are 31 terminator sets of armour, 20 for veterans 1 for each captain and one special one for a chapter master

Erm... that makes 22. Unless you meant 30 for veterans. But then it's 32.

Pyriel- wrote:

This is one of those instances where fluff doesnt really support fluff. If terminator armor is now impossible to create where do all the new founding chapters get theirs? Engagements where space marine terminators are lost how can they recover those losses for 10,000 years? How did the GKs manage to get over 100 suits of terminator armor (first battle of armegeddon). There is no plausible way that after 10,000 years they would have any terminator armor if they had no way to reproduce it. Even if you could repair 80% of damaged terminator armor their is still no way you would have over 1000 chapters of marines with access to terminator armor.

Spot on!
The art of making high tech isnt lost, its just carefully guarded by the most powerful forges.

An even bigger proof of this are the countless improvements and manufacturing of wargear since the heresy, old time and less poerful TDA suits were phased out for the current better types! How could this be if the art of making them was "lost".
Same goes for vehicle chassies plasma weapons, suspensor tech etc etc and we all heard that anti grav tech "too" was lost and plasma tech is almost extinct. Nah, seen and read to many fluff instances of entire IG regiments swimming in plasma guns to belive anything is truly "lost".

Hell, if they can build even better termie suits then they did n the heresy era and if tehy can build freaking titan legions (a "tad" more advanced then a dreadnought or a TDA suit) then there is no such thing as lost tech other then the nigh "magical" tech from the TRUE dark ages of technology.

Agreed. I think the fluff is flexible in this area over time. It was my understanding that TDA suit technology was almost-aka many of the areas that had the tech to produce in any sort of mass production method lost it. However, certain Ad Mech, especially techmarines, could still do so, but it was more along the lines of hand made production. Incredibly difficult, time consuming, and more of one off work of art process yes, but completely lost, no.

Luckily there's a surplus of helmets laying around since sergeants and higher members of the chapter don't seem to wear them.

liquidjoshi wrote:In case this hasn't already been said, BEFORE the horus heresy, all space marines wore termie armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Solon wrote:in each chapter there are 31 terminator sets of armour, 20 for veterans 1 for each captain and one special one for a chapter master

Erm... that makes 22. Unless you meant 30 for veterans. But then it's 32.

Where do you 2 get your ideas from?


There is no set number of TDA in a chapter.
And pre-heresy, only a few legions had full compagnies of terminators ( one of them the Iron Hands ).

Since the actual fluff doesnt repat that "lost" nonsense, why not just take codex SM as source and accept the
word rare as our starting point? ( SM page 64 ).

Rare equipment means, its not available for everyone.
But it doesnt say cannot be reproduced. Rare = low numbers.
Having a few TDA suits and the option to replace losses only very slow, does mean youre careful and restrict them
to your trustworthy men => veterans.

I seriously don't believe that Terminator Armour lasts that long. Anything lasting for almost 10,000 would certainly naturally degenerate to the point where it would be unuseable. Also, anyone who's read Mechanicum will recall how Marines were stationed to defend the evacuation of suits of Astartes Armour which was being manufactured on Mars.

Regarding the Emperor's Armour, Lexicanum states that:

"The shoulder displays the Crux Terminatus badge - those worn by Terminator captains said to contain a piece of the Terminator Armour the Emperor wore when he fought Horus during the final battle of the Horus Heresy."

So if only captains (and probably chapter masters) wear those, that's only 10-11 pieces per chapter. So for 1000 chapters you can do the math.

SM and CSM TDA look different, so they must have improved it during the last 10k years.

I'd also like to know where the idea of all marines wearing TDA suggested by liquidjoshi comes from. I recall seeing Power Armour Astartes before Heresy here and there...