Yet another thread about starting . . .

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Manchu**

Apologies in advance. (I did look through the first few pages to find if something similar had been asked already, however.) I also posted this question on PPforums but I haven't gotten any responses. Sigh, nothing's like dakka. Anyway:

I'm looking for some help choosing a faction. Rules aside, I think it's best to choose one based on liking their aesthetics/background--that way you'll actually follow through on the hobby aspect and have the loyalty required to stick with them so that you can get to playing larger games. My trouble is that with Hordes, I like (the look of) all of them too much. With War Machine, on the other hand, I don't like any of them enough.

So it looks like my choice is going to come down to fluff and rules. BUT I don't have my rules yet (still in transit) so I only have a general knowledge of the fluff and almost no idea about what separates the factions mechanically.

Therefore, would someone (or someones preferably) mind giving me a brief sketch of each faction's "feel," as it were, on the table?

**malfred**

Trollbloods: Buffs and synergies, Tribal Warriors, Tough Models, Beasts are big trolls.

Circle Orboros: Bloodthirsty Druids, Speed and Forest Mobility, Feral Warbeasts
and Walking Stone Golem thingies, Tharn Barbarian types (male and female), Beasts
focused on denial and mobility

Skorne: Most militarized of the four, Regimented society, weird mix of Persia, Rome,
and Samurai, torture features a large role, assassins, armored troops, attrition
style gameplay and kind of slow. Beasts focused on dealing damage

Legion of Everblight: Dragon based warbeasts with emphasis on mobility. Corrupted
Elves (mind and body), mostly female warlocks (the harem of Thagrosh, lols)

**Manchu**

Thanks for the response, Malfred! (That took a mere sixteen minutes, PPforums, foreshame!)

This is exactly what I was looking for. So let me zero in a little on some of your comments.

Trollbloods: So hitting hard and then hitting harder? Pretty straightforward?

Circle: What is meant by denial? (presumably to do with enemy warlocks rather than psychological problem--"the forests are in no danger at all!")

Skorne: My current top choice for Hordes but I've heard they focus more on units than beasts, which is offputting.

Legion: Probably should have asked earlier but "mobility"?

**malfred**

Cygnar: Shooty, boy scouts, well trained troops, high tech warjacks with special anti-warjack
tech, electricity, Well trained ranged, some specialist melee, British Victorians

Protectorate of Menoth: Churchies, Well trained Knights, Untrained Template weapons,
Attrition style gameplay, Denial, Slow, Priests, Fire, Religious Fanatics who discovered
oil in the crappy lands Cygnar gave them.

Khador: Well Trained Melee, Ranged Specialists, Slow Well Armored and Powerful Warjacks,
Warcaster prefer to mix it up, Cold Theme, Russian Imperialist Expansionists

Cryx: Slow moving attrition, Debuffs, Necromancy and undead mixed with technology,
Dragon rules over them (the father of Everblight, in fact), Pirate themes, Wraith themes,
Zombie/Thrall themes

Mercs: Might as well ask for a contract type first. (I do not look forward to going over
the Mercenary summaries)

**Manchu**

TBH, Mercs have piqued my interest the most. But it's alright, I can wait for the rules to go over them.

Protectorate is pretty much crossed off of my list. I don't care for their aesthetic or their color scheme. I also facepalmed when I read "found oil."

Cryx interests me background-wise but I don't want to paint all that grey.

That leaves me tied between Cygnar and Khador. And I'm really scratching my head over this.

**malfred**

Manchu wrote:Trollbloods: So hitting hard and then hitting harder? Pretty straightforward?

I think so. It's one of the reasons I like them. Radiohazard was going all on about a
standard anvil army called the troll brick where you have support models enhance the
staying power of models that are already hard to kill.

Manchu wrote:Circle: What is meant by denial? (presumably to do with enemy warlocks rather than psychological problem--"the forests are in no danger at all!")

Denial as in those stone beasts that you see? The Woldwardens, Woldwatchers,
etc. typically have some kind of ability to slow down their opponent with forests or
something like that. They even have a light wold that shoots models attempting to
cast spells within a certain range. Woldwardens create a forest around them for a
round, Woldwatchers can shoot things and turn them into forests, etc.

Manchu wrote:Skorne: My current top choice for Hordes but I've heard they focus more on units than beasts, which is offputting.

It's what I like about them

What's offputting is trying to paint that lovely trim
that's on all that armor. Attrition forces require bodies to make it, and so fielding
small 'beast based armies is hard to do with Skorne (in my experience, if anyone
knows a list that would work, I'd like to see it)

Manchu wrote:Legion: Probably should have asked earlier but "mobility"?

Fast warbeasts and warbeasts with abilities that help them navigate or ignore
terrain altogether.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:

Protectorate is pretty much crossed off of my list. I don't care for their aesthetic or their color scheme. I also facepalmed when I read "found oil."

It's how they generate all their fire attacks.

**Manchu**

The reason that unit-heavy is offputting to me is the amount of painting, haha.

From your descriptions, I'm starting to consider Legion more seriously. But anyway I'm more anxious to pick a WH faction first. Maybe I'll just go with Cygnar AND Khador. Although, I like this Magnus character's look a lot.

malfred wrote:
Manchu wrote:Protectorate is pretty much crossed off of my list. I don't care for their aesthetic or their color scheme. I also facepalmed when I read "found oil."
It's how they generate all their fire attacks.

LOL

**malfred**

You think I'm kidding.

**Manchu**

No, I just think it's funny. Sometimes this stuff is so transparently from a D&D campaign that as a long-time DM I can't help but laugh.

**frozenwastes**

What's it called? Menoth's Fury or something like that.

As for denial, a fair number of things in Warmachine and Hordes stop whatever abilities you might have from working at full effect. So that's one kind of denial. Then there's area denial. Either through the making of difficult terrain, movement debuffs or making moving there suicidal.

Ranged assassination specialists create denial as well. For example, I play Magnus the Warlord with two Renegades and they each have an obliterator rocket that can fire over most intervening models and are very powerful. Many opponents end up not committing their army as aggressively as they would like for fear of their leader getting a couple rockets in the face. So something that's fairly straightforward (shooting rockets at someone) becomes denial through threat. Each faction has casters that might work like this.

**malfred**

Eh, what do you expect. It's a fantasy game world.

Menoth is the god that gives them laws and all those things. Then the people of the Iron
Kingdoms get taken over by the Orgoth. Twins ascend to become the gods Morrow and
Thamar, and it's said that while Morrow lead the good fight, Thamar was the one who
gave humans the magical gifts they needed, etc. etc.

**Manchu**

I really think I'll get into Cygnar to indulge my secret(ish) love for Ultramarines without having to actually buy/paint Ultramarines. Now the only questions that remains are:

(1) A second faction for WM? (I'm the guy who has to introduce my friends to games so this will be necessary, sigh.)

(2) Hordes? (Still a four-way tie, although Circle and Legion are in the lead.)

**frozenwastes**

If you have anyone who really like the story behind a given game, you could:

a) having a battle between the Protectorate Forces as they try to crusade into Cygnar Land
b) fight out a battle on the front in Lael, where Khador has invaded.
c) Cygnar repelling a raiding force of Cryx that landed on Cygnar's southern shores
d) Civil war between Cygnar and Magnus's loyalist forces
e) The Retribution coming to hunt down and kill a human wizard (Cygnar Warcaster)

Warmachine has basically reached the point that there isn't much of a stereotypical list anymore. Even with people starting from common battleboxes, there's no real classic matchups-- because they all work on the faction level.

I'd say go for looks. It worked for picking Cygnar.

**Manchu**

This makes me really wish I had picked up those IK books when they were selling at Borders years ago. :(

**hjelmen**

Privateer Press has released all the IK RPG source books for sale in PDF format. I know PDF's suck, and it's probably hellishly expensive, but it's an option

You can read more about it here here.

**Manchu**

Yeah, I hjelmen, I read about it when the did it. It's generally $10 off printed price for PDF. A bit rich for my blood, but I may give in eventually.

**Da Boss**

I'd say again that the IK RPG books aren't THAT good for fluff, at least, not in the way the GW fluff is. It's good for information on specific places, and a detailed world history, but you get most of that in the Warmachine and Hordes rulebooks anyway. I prefer the fluff in the Wargame stuff to the RPG stuff (I own both) because it's more concise and well written.

As to hordes factions:
Trolls are all about unit synergy. They don't have many fancy tricks, but most of the stuff in their list is resilient as hell and hits reasonably hard. Our warlocks are:
Madrack: Reasonably good in melee, with spells that buff units. Lowish fury.
Epic Madrack: Works really well with infantry hordes, really good melee beatstick.
Doomshaper: Our main beast caster. Denial spells (gettting rid of enemy spells) and feat (hurts to spend fury or focus near him). Squish as hell for a troll caster, however.
Epic Doomshaper: Works really well with heavy warbeasts (dire trolls). Haven't played with him, but he seems to favour a blitz list.
Grissel: Infantry buffing MACHINE. Makes infantry much better, and she's reasonably good in melee. Lowish fury.
Grim Angus: Excellent at range, and really good at countering the "tricksy" elements of other factions. Not too shabby in a fight either. Feat is a little weak these days. Medium Fury.
Kegslayer: I loved him in Mk1, haven't tried him in Mk2 yet. He seems to be a combined arms caster who is a decent melee beatstick himself. Favours a melee army.
Truthsayer: Haven't played with her, but she's got the best Fury management of any Troll warlock, and she's got good buffing powers for keeping things alive. Seems like a combined arms, support caster.

Circle I've played against a few times. They're tricksy as hell, and have some really nice tank type units. They focus on fighting on their own terms. I don't have a detailed run through on the warlocks, but I'll have a go at it, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong:
Kaya: Works well with beasts. Very mobile.
Baldur: Works well with stone contructs, mobile, and good at melee.
Krueger: Good at offensive spellcasting.
Kromac: Good melee beatstick, works well with beasts.
Morvanna: Excellent infantry and beast support.
I'm not up to date on the Epic versions of Kaya and Krueger, or the new desert based druid. Sorry!

Legion are a Glass Nuke. They're able to output huge amounts of damage, but can't take that much in return. To help them, they're really mobile, and often ignore terrain for targetting or moving. They're kinda the anti-trolls.
Thagrosh: Seems to work well with heavies (based on his feat) Melee beatsick.
Lylyth: Works well with ranged, ranged caster with low fury.
Epic Lylyth: Seems to work well with ranged troops, still ranged focused with low fury.
Vayl: Spellcaster with support elements, squishy as hell in combat.
Ryas: Assassination. Works well with melee beasts. Ninja as hell!
Saeyrn: Offensive spellcaster in an odd way, sort of ninja, denial focused.
Epic Thagrosh: good at beasts? melee beatstick? Not 100%.
Not sure on the other one, the mutant elf lady, either.

Skorne:
I've played against them a lot in Mk1, but can't speak to them in Mk2 right now. Lots of big, strong heavies that are a beeotch to kill, and wierd, denial based lights. Infantry and heavy infantry are a specialty. No particularly beast focused casters, but excellent support for beasts in the paingiver unit.

I hope that was useful. I'm a troll player who is very interested in Legion, so that you know my biases. Like Circle too, for a Kromac and Tharn beatstick list, but hate the Warpwolf and argus models too much to make the plunge. Skorne are cool, but I don't feel like playing them, for whatever reason!

**Manchu**

Thanks for being so generous with your time there, Da Boss.

Regarding IK: Could you please extrapolate on this comparison with GW fluff. I don't know if you've seen any of my fluff threads on dakka, but this really is my meat and potatoes as a confirmed casual gamer.

To give the latest score card here:

War Machine: Cygnar is clearly in the lead and it looks like a Magnus-based Merc army might come as a second army--but Khador could still catch up.

Horde: Since I have been told both here and at PPforums about Legion being a glass hammer, they've fallen significantly behind. Circile is leading, trailed by Skorne. This race will likely not be finishing any time soon!

**Da Boss**

GW fluff is more open and broad in scope. It's got this huge playground to work in that spans hundreds of years of time. Anything can happen in it. Whereas IK fluff is small scale, and focused on a moving timeline that is measured in months. Individual personalities are more important. There's less scope for personal interpretation, and less scope for creativity.
On the other hand, there is a better narrative sense, and individual characters develop a lot more. Their personalities shape the world much moreso, and there's a sense that things are "going" somewhere. I like both, but for different reasons. But I think the Wargame books are better written and more accessible than the RPG fluff.

**malfred**

My solution is much easier, Manchu.

**Da Boss**

Buy everything?

**Manchu**

I don't mind there being less room to interject one's own elements (homebrew chapters especially annoy me to no end) but I do like having space to interpret. As an example. here's my latest serious fluff debate.

I think this is why the Vinter v Leto thing is already catching my imagination.

**malfred**

Da Boss wrote:Buy everything?

Hush you. It works.

**Sleipnir**

malfred wrote:Cryx: Slow moving attrition, Debuffs, Necromancy and undead mixed with technology,
Dragon rules over them (the father of Everblight, in fact), Pirate themes, Wraith themes,
Zombie/Thrall themes

In the interest of any potential players reading this thread, I'd like to point out that Cryx is SUPER fast (most of their stuff is SPD 6 or 7 and likes to run). They play like a wolf pack that comes in at high speed and circles the target until they spot something vulnerable and then they gang up on it and rip it to shreds.

**malfred**

Woops, what was I thinking? Bleh.

**Manchu**

How important is it to start with a battle box? Is it simply a savings thing or is there more to it than that?

**frozenwastes**

At this point, it's pretty much just the savings. Which, if you end up not using a model or even two, stops to matter. A friend of mine grabbed the Menoth starter. He started playing Feora and hasn't really used the Revenger or the Kreoss model since (Feora does fine without an arc node).

**Manchu**

I'm asking because I'm not too into the looks of that Coleman Stryker model. I'll have to look through the rules, of course, (rather than Mal's awesome summaries alone) but I kind of dig the Haley character so far.

**Manchu**

Is this still pretty accurate?

Written by Adam at PPForums (in 2006):

Adam wrote:Cygnar
The Jewel of the Iron Kingdoms, Cygnar is the cultural center of Western Immoren, commanding the highest technology and some of the most elite soldiers. Cygnaran war philosophy is to control the flow of battle in order to win the day. Combat will occur when and where they choose, as they limit enemy mobility and establish kill zones where no hostile trooper dares set foot. Their troops are highly trained and skilled in multiple roles on the battlefield, though they will usually be outnumbered.

Cygnar Melee: Well armored and hard hitting, the highly trained warriors of Cygnar march into battle with confidence. Backed up by the protection of an Arcane Shield, they need fear no bombardments - only a direct hit can pierce their armor. Whether they wield the power of lightning or are trained to fight in tandem with their swift warjacks, Cygnar melee is centered on defeating the enemy quickly with multiple attacks.

Cygnar Ranged: Equipped with the most advanced direct-fire weapons available, Cygnar can drop their foes from a distance with deadly accuracy. Preferring light armor for mobility, they do not expect foes to survive to melee them. Either dug into makeshift bunkers for protection, firing in drilled formations, or shooting on the run with arcane precision and enchanted bullets, Cygnar has you in their sights.

Cygnar Magic: Cygnar support magic enhances the armor of their troops and the range and accuracy of their firearms. They also have a wide array of electrical effects to destroy enemy infantry or interfere with enemy warjacks to render them ineffective. Cygnar tends to put faith in their army and focus on spells that help them do their job more effectively.

Cygnar Warjacks: Somewhat lighter armored but faster and more agile than most jacks, Cygnar builds specialized models for various purposes and many of them have special abilities to aid them in their intended role. Cygnar jacks support their infantry well but are less likely to fight on their own in favor of a combined arms approach.

Khador
In the hard, cold, northern lands live the people of Khador. Their harsh surroundings have produced a faction centered on durability and brute strength. With the most heavily armored warjacks in the game as well as powerful melee troops, Khador is designed to outlast and outsmash any other faction. When the dust clears, they will be the last ones standing. With their superior knowledge of the battlefield their forces are deployed for ambush, attacking when and where they are least suspected.

Khador Melee: Khadoran troops take advantage of their heavy armor and shields, presenting a brick wall to would-be attackers. Instead of wasting precious cortex technology on light warjacks they have instead the Man-o-War, a massive warrior encased in a steam-powered battle suit. If the situation truly demands the utmost in savagery they can deploy a unit of crazed killers wielding cursed blades that protect them from all magic. Khador melee switches gears rapidly between quick brutal assault and impenetrable defense as the situation demands it.

Khador Ranged: Khador splits their resources between stealthy snipers and long-range bombardments. Their famed Widowmakers are some of the finest marksmen in all of the Iron Kingdoms, and their Mortars inflict massive casualties on troops from enormous distances. Beware your step, for in Khador you the bullets or arrows will come flying without warning.

Khador Magic: Lacking the arcnodes of other factions, Khadoran magic is more centered on supporting their army than in attacking their foes from a distance. A fortunate thing indeed that Khadoran warcasters are tough enough to get up close to deliver their own brand of spells! They can freeze enemies solid, summon cloaking blizzards to hide their troops, and accelerate their enormous heavy warjacks to seemingly impossible speeds.

Khador Warjacks: Slow and ponderous, Khador jacks nonetheless are the toughest available anywhere. Their enormous strength allows them both to carry the weight of their thick armor and also to put out enormous amounts of damage in melee. Cortex technology is hard to come by in Khador, so they do not waste them on light warjacks like other factions.

Protectorate of Menoth
Loyal followers of the Creator of Man, the Menites work together to overcome the toughest opponents letting nothing stand in their way. While individually weaker, more than any other faction they leverage synergy to combine into an unstoppable force. Every Menite killed in battle just inspires his fellows to fight even harder until all the Iron Kingdoms submit to Menoth's Law.

Menoth Melee: Blessed with cheap effective troops, the Protectorate has a mix of fast defensive troops and hard-hitting Knights. Further, with the support of the Choir their warjacks fight with a fury unmatched by any other faction.

Menoth Ranged: Preferring quantity over quality, there is a strong emphasis on AOE and spray attacks over the more accurate direct-fire weapons of other factions. Menites do not need to hit in order to kill, instead letting their wandering blasts land where they may. Aiming is even less necessary if your fanatical troops are willing to put themselves in harm's way to fire from point-blank distance.

Menoth Magic: Menoth spells are mainly focused on protection and enhancement of their army. They can protect against magic, shield their troops, and inflict divine punishment on anyone who attacks them. Offensively their blessings inspire their troops to fight better while they rain holy fire upon the enemy from afar. Some Menoth warcasters can even harvest the life force of their dying troops to inflict one last attack upon the enemy.

Menoth Warjacks: Menoth heavy jacks have medium armor and are fairly slow, other than some of their more recent models. Their light jacks though are some of the best in the game. They serve roles from anti-infantry to durable arcnodes to warcaster bodyguards. Although Menoth jacks may appear a little subpar on the statline the Choir can enhance them to make them fight much better or protect them from enemy spells or ranged attacks.

Cryx
The undead empire of Cryx will stop at nothing, using any dirty trick to achieve victory. Their infantry is cheap and disposable, packing a horrific punch against men and warjacks alike. Against Cryx, you must always be on your guard. The smallest opening, the slightest error, and they will pounce unleashing a torrent of evil spells that can kill men by the droves or turn the strongest models into crippled weaklings.

Cryx Melee: Their troops are designed to be hard-hitting and disposable, since there is a never ending supply of bodies to create more. In fact, they can even create them in the middle of battle, regenerating the fallen almost as fast as they can be killed until their enemies despair of ever finishing them all. For special jobs, they will field swift light infantry designed to be able to get into key positions and interfere with enemy movement.

Cryx Ranged: Masters of necrosurgery, Cryx prefers to turn the bodies of their warriors into living weapons. Pumped full of causic acids, they waddle towards the front lines to wretch their deadly payload onto the enemy. Most of them will not make it, but bodies are cheap and those that succeed will wipe out many times their own numbers. Cryx also boasts swift ghostly assassins, able to slip through solid walls to fire their spectral guns at unsuspecting prey.

Cryx Magic: Cryxian offensive spells are the most destructive in the game, killing indiscriminately and weakening stronger foes until they can be overcome. They give little to no though to protecting or supporting their own army, just tearing down the enemy. But their real power lies in their swift and numerous arcnodes. With the ability to channel their magic like no other faction can, Cryx can strike where they are least suspected.

Cryx Warjacks: Cryx warjacks mostly come in two types, fast and cheap arcnodes known as bonejacks and the aggressive melee oriented Helljacks. All are lightly armored compared to other factions but are quite a bit faster and harder to hit. In other words, Helljacks depend on getting the first hit and have the speed to help them do it. There are an abundance of open fists for power attacks, but their weapon POW suffers some for it.

**Metsuri**

Manchu wrote:Is this still pretty accurate?

Written by Adam at PPForums (in 2006):

Pretty close to the truth from a fluff point of view. That write up describes the armies as kind of developer summaries, it mentions the most important themes in the different factions, but does it from fluff point of view. The actual game experience can be a bit different depending on the caster and model selection.