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I am interested in warmachine/hordes.

I've looked at the site's gallery and If I baught anything it would be the models first, but I don't want to buy it if it's going to be a major waste (rubbish unit or very very hard to use well)

For example: I like Cryx's warcasters and the Bane Knights/thralls but only like 1 or 2 or the 'jacks. (slayer is my fav) So is it possible to do a Cryx army focusing like this?
I like both Khador's and Menoth's Warjacks but not thier units. (both have a unit or two which I like) But I don't really like the casters much.
Skorne has units and a couple of beasts but is it hard to mix the rules to fight warmachine against horde? I seen it mentioned. I ask as it is likely that anyone else in my gaming group that picks it up will go for a warmachine faction.

Final thing. Is it acceptable to use a caster's regular model and use thier epic form for game purposes? (sorry if this last bit doesn't make too much sense)


Thanks in advance.

If you can convert the caster to look more epic then I would say go for it. In casual games no one ever seems to have a problem with this.

Cryx with bane knights and thralls works well with gaspy in my experince. I am not sure how they work with the other casters but would assume they do well. Slayer is a good all around basic jack.

What is the other jack you like?

About the epic caster thing. An example would make it better. I like the Iron Lich Asphyxious model, (Gaspy right?) but not the epic version (The floating one). Could I put down the regular version and play it as epic version or should I buy the epic model to aviod confusion.

Also about the other jack.... Turns out I made an error and thought that the classic slayer was a different jack type to the normal slayer.

VikingScott wrote:Final thing. Is it acceptable to use a caster's regular model and use thier epic form for game purposes? (sorry if this last bit doesn't make too much sense)


Thanks in advance.

Typically, no. You might be able to get away with proxying the model in casual games, but it's a pretty definite no-no in tournament play.

Fair enough. Thanks for quick replies as well

In a friendly game it's acceptable to use proxies (i.e. epic versus prime versions of casters), but in a pick up game or tournament people will probably insist that you use the correct model for clarity.

Hordes and Warmachines are compatible rulesets, and were written to play each other (the rulebooks reference each other is some spots). Almost the same game for the majority of the unit types. The major difference is how beasts work versus jacks, but it doesn't cause game conflicts.

You don't like Cygnar so I can't offer you too much strategy or list building advice, but all the starter box models in my experience have been useful even after collecting a large army and the models in those boxes are all easy to use.

You really should read the rule first before buying models or start with a starter box because certain jacks, units work better with certain casters. It's a game of synergies. Every faction is competitive, but not every list is competitive. You need to match up models that work well as a team.

Yeah Cygnar just all seemed a bit "meh" to me.

Is a 'Jack heavy Menoth force viable? Perhaps with some examplar bastions/cinerators?

Or a Khador 'jack heavy force?

VikingScott wrote:Yeah Cygnar just all seemed a bit "meh" to me.

Is a 'Jack heavy Menoth force viable? Perhaps with some examplar bastions/cinerators?

Or a Khador 'jack heavy force?

Both are quite viable, especially with Amon Ad'Raza (Menoth) and Karchev the Terrible (Khador). Both make 'jack heavy forces into incredibly nasty killing machines.

I do like the look of Karchev the terrible, like a mini jack!

Is it recomended to have units or could I run just jacks effectively? (any faction)

You can do jack heavy forces, but you end up being limited by your caster's focus per round. IMO it's easier in Cyngar to do jack heavy with nemo, journeyman warcaster, squire .. to add lots of focus each round. I think in Menoth you can use those wracks to get more focus each round. Maybe I'm mistaken. I forgot what they did, but I do remember that they explode after a while.

I haven't actually read any rules. Am I right in assuming that focus is like Space Hulk's command points? Allowning a jack to do something it wouldn't have normally been able to do that turn?

yes. Jacks need focus to run, charge, add attacks, add bonuses to rolls, do power attacks. Basically everything except a basic move and 1 attack. Therfore if a jack has no focus it's pretty nerfed. Also your caster needs some focus to cast their spells.

Ah, ok.
So either a high focus caster would be nessercery or units to replace the jacks.

What units from menoth/Khador would support a jack heavy approach?

phillosmaster wrote:yes. Jacks need focus to run, charge, add attacks, add bonuses to rolls, do power attacks. Basically everything except a basic move and 1 attack. Therfore if a jack has no focus it's pretty nerfed. Also your caster needs some focus to cast their spells.

That's not quite true. A jack can make as many attacks as it has weapons, so without any focus a Slayer can still make 3 attacks. There are also certain jacks that get free focus and/or can do certain things for free, such as Cryx's Seether. As far as playing Cryx, you can certainly make viable lists with few or even no jacks.

VikingScott wrote:Ah, ok.
So either a high focus caster would be nessercery or units to replace the jacks.

What units from menoth/Khador would support a jack heavy approach?

With Menoth, you'll be looking at the Choir, the Reclaimer, and the Vassal. The former hands out protection from shooting or magic, or can improve your attack and damage. The Reclaimer uses souls from dead faction models to fuel your warjacks, and the Vassal has a few abilities that improve warjacks in a variety of ways. Caster-wise, you'll probably be looking at Amon, along with both Feoras and Reznik. The Severiuses (Severii?) work decently as well, as does the Harbinger, mostly due to their inanely high focus stats.

Khador tends to not have a heck of a lot of synergy within the faction, so the only two things that really help jacks would be the Mechaniks and the Koldun Lord. Casters that operate well with warjacks would be Dark Prince Vlad, Karchev, both Butchers, and Karchev. The Irusks and Strakov work well with small groups of Warjacks, although they really adore their infantry.

Also, note that a high focus stat does not necessarily mean they're a Jack caster. For instance, Karchev is a 5 focus caster, and the Butchers are 6 and randomly determined between 2-7. The real determining factor is their spell list, such as Karchev's Unearthly Rage and Amon's Synergy and Mobility.

VikingScott wrote:Ah, ok.
So either a high focus caster would be nessercery or units to replace the jacks.

What units from menoth/Khador would support a jack heavy approach?

Hi, I actually play All jack armies with both of those factions.

A couple of suggestions for Khador:

Karchev is cool, but he's not my cup of tea, personally I like the pButcher because of Full Throttle, and his feat is pretty good for ripping everything up in one turn.

Berserkers are ridiculously awesome, they are a great unit for a front line assault, usually I will run 3-4 in higher point games, allocate 2 focus or so to each charge em in spend focus to boost damage for hard hits and pray they explode.

Juggernauts are very good at putting axe to face and when they do it hurts bad because of P+S 19 and when the butcher pops his feat and full throttle these bad boys get 3 dice to hit and four dice to damage which will rip up anything usually I will then fight my way to caster on caster because lola with boosting damage can kill most other casters.
Not to mention they are cheap for 7 points.

I sometimes run a Destroyer but I'm not a huge fan, the juggernaut tends to do better but a little versatility never hurts.

A couple of suggestions for Protectorate of Menoth:

Kreoss is nice and the Battlegroup is a much better starting point than the Battlegroup for Khador.

Spray weapons rule and you can never have too many of them.

The Templar is a great heavy warjack that can lay down some beating, and Beat Back never hurt anyone but your opponent.

The Crusader is cheap and effective.

Usually I try to split my army up so instead of a focused punch "line 1 then line 2 to mop up the mess leftover" strategy I use with Khador I find that dividing and conquering or just using movement to my opponents disadvantage works best here.

Kreoss's Defender's Ward spell is a great way to make your Revengers extremely tough and comparable to heavy warjacks, it also doesn't hurt your heavy warjacks either.

Kreoss himself is a beast in combat and with 7 focus it's hard not to kill a caster in the turn you get close.

Usually I will use my Templar's Beat Back and my Revenger's Repulsor Shield to open a hole and then run kreoss through it pop his feat and mack on some Warcaster with flame throwers and Kreoss's auto hit melee attacks.

MasterDRD wrote:

phillosmaster wrote:yes. Jacks need focus to run, charge, add attacks, add bonuses to rolls, do power attacks. Basically everything except a basic move and 1 attack. Therfore if a jack has no focus it's pretty nerfed. Also your caster needs some focus to cast their spells.

That's not quite true. A jack can make as many attacks as it has weapons, so without any focus a Slayer can still make 3 attacks. There are also certain jacks that get free focus and/or can do certain things for free, such as Cryx's Seether. As far as playing Cryx, you can certainly make viable lists with few or even no jacks.

ah yeah. That's right I was selling jacks a bit short. You are allowed to make 1 melee attack with each melee weapon your jack has on it's profile so if it has more than 1 weapon it gets to make more than 1 attack per activation.

You don't need to only rely on the caster for focus. As the posters above explained you can get more focus from other units you can field. Also some units and solos can jack marshal or drive jacks to give their assigned jacks a boost thus giving you some flexibility to add more jacks after your caster has reached saturation. That does mean you need to field some units and solos though, but the majority of your army can still be jacks.

For a Cygnar example (which is what I know) to compliment the lists above:

Each jack can be assigned a max of 3 focus per round normally (some break that rule). I can field Siege who has 6 focus. I can give him a Squire you can add 1 focus per round. Siege can handle 3-4 jacks maybe more depending on what jacks I assign him. I then field a unit of trenchers with their officer attachment. The officer can jack marshal (effectively giving 1 limited focus to his assigned jack) so I give him a jack called the grenadier who gets bonus attacks for being in BtB with friendly trencher models. I then field a journeyman warcaster (who has 3 focus to give it's assigned jack), and assign it a jack. Then I field a unit of stormblades with the officer unit attachment. The officer is a jack marshal so I give him a stormclad warjack. The stormclad can get a maximum of 1 focus for being near friendly stormblade models.

So thats 6-7 warjacks in my army but I fielded 2 solos, 2 units and 2 unit attachments to get there. If I field prime or epic Nemo as my caster instead it becomes easier to field more jacks since he has abilities and feats pertaining to gaining more focus or reassigning focus which gives you way more breathing room to load up his battlegroup.

MasterDRD wrote:As far as playing Cryx, you can certainly make viable lists with few or even no jacks.

Just wanted to add that the warcasters themselves doesn't cost any points. They do however provide warjack(or warbeast if you play hordes) points.
Warjack points are basically points that you can use for warjacks in your 'casters battlegroup, so if you take no jacks, you'll be playing at a point disadvantage.

Ex.

pKreoss has +5 warjack points, which means he can take a Repenter(4p) jack for free, and a Crusader(6p) for 5p.
or
eKaya has +3 warbeast points, which means she can take a Feral Warpwolf(9p) for 6p.

If you decide to not take any jacks, you wont get those points. Which basically mean you'll play at a point disadvantage against someone who uses them.

If you play Cryx, you should at least take one Bonejack for the arcnode.

The Defiler at 5pts uses up most casters jack points, and provides an arc node, a DEF 15, and a 8" spray at POW 12 that causes corrosion.

You don't need a high FOC caster to run jacks well. You just need to think about how you are using your jacks.
If you have Battlegroup spells, you get more out of them if you have more jacks.
Also, if you have a lot of upkeeps, cast them early, and you hopefully have focus when you need to power up a jack.

From looking at other warmachine threads it seems that Cryx could be very hard for me to use. It not my style of play. But then theres the flipside of learnign it anyway and bettering myself.

At this point Khador looks the most likely. What is an easy caster to learn for Khador?

And I've looked through their units. Are winter guard (in ny of their forms) any good with lots of jacks?

Butcher.
Rule Number One: Apply Axe to Face.
Rule Number Two: Please Read Rule Number One.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, I think Butcher is a good place to start.

He's durable (so a tiny bit more forgiving).
His feat is pretty straightforward.
He has high combat ability in combat.
His spell list is very straightforward too.
He likes his jacks, but doesn't mind infantry too.

I guess the only issue is:
-medium base.
-Not shooty/offensive spell slingin.
-Pretty much stomp face with him or his jacks.

I like the sound of rule one!

So he's the no nensense caster? Yes I like him.

And I just saw Fenris. Wow.
Quality model.

Is the general Khadorian strategy march up the feild and chop stuff to death?
I think I will have to become a Khador player.
Could someone fill me in with a bit of thier background?

Khador is my preferred faction as well. I also started with the Butcher, and he's definitely the easiest warcaster to get the hang of. Remember, don't start casting Full Throttle every turn. Cast it only when you need to. Likewise, watch for casters like Caine who knock 'jacks over on to the Butcher's head, thus knocking him down and making him a sitting duck.

Khador basically fights to reclaim their "stolen" empire. They're not-so-subtly based upon communist Russia and follow an Empress. They're fanatically loyal to their country though, not necessarily their leader.

Militarily, Khador believes in the "slow and steady wins the race" policy. They have high armor but generally low defenses on their 'jacks but even their cheapest heavies pack one hell of a punch!

Their infantry generally pretty quick and usually has ways around being torn up before they get close enough to put the hurt on.

You asked about Winter Guard: YES they can be very good in 'jack heavy lists. With the UA and Kovnik Joe (a solo), they become extremely versatile and almost an auto include for me, no matter what kind of list I am running. They have spray attacks with the UA and a variety of abilities with Joe. Combine them with a 'caster like eSorscha and you make them serious players on the battlefield!

Thanks!
I like the models for the Winter Guard particlularly the rifle corps.

But I have only read about maybe half of the quick start rules so far.

What about Doom reavers? Seriously good models and I would like to know if they are worth taking?

To expand on the fluff side, Khador has trouble producing cortexes (the "brain" of a Jack) so they build their jacks big and with lots of armor to prevent the loss of valuable equipment. In game terms this means their jacks are all pretty much Arm 20 (in general the highest base arm in the game) and they are all speed 4 (the slowest in the game). Addtionally, since Khador doesn't believe in fielding lightly armored jacks, they build giant suites of steam armor for soldiers to use (Man-o-Wars). This theme of being slightly less technologically adept continues in the faction with winter guard using out dated blunderbusses, a lack of Arc Nodes, etc.

In fluff terms, Khador's casters range from Tactical and Strategic Geniuses (Irusk), semi insane killers (the Butcher, Karchev), an immortal hag that draws her power from the people of Khador (the old Witch), and the more "common solider" (Sorscha, Strakov, Zerkova). In general all of the Khador casters are straight forward -- they don't believe in tricking you into a quick win, but crushing their enemies under the weight of their heavy jacks and the numbers of their winter guard.

Khador is currently the aggressor in a war with Cygnar after having earlier captured the national of Llael. Despite some early successes, Cygnar has been beaten out of northguard, their largest fortress on the boarder with Khador. In reaction to the fall of Llael, the Protectorate has launched the Northern Crusade to liberate those of the Menite faith from Khador, though this is more of a land grab for the protectorate because Khador has no restrictions on the old faith. Khador has also drawn the Ire of the Retribution of Ios (elves) by stealing the elven god Nyssor from his worshipers.

That should cover the general overview of Khador

How can you steal a god?

And does the story get advanced through campiagns or just through editions?

Any word on Doom Reavers? Any good?

VikingScott wrote:How can you steal a god?

The Elven gods are dying, so Nyssor put himself on ice to keep himself alive a bit longer. When Everblight annihilated the Nyss, the survivors carted Nyssor's ice cube off to Khador, where Goreshade tried to thaw him, stole his sword, got his ass kicked by Eiryss, and then fled, abandoning the (quickly refrozen) god to the tender mercies of Koldun Zerkova.

And does the story get advanced through campiagns or just through editions?

Mostly through the books, although the Leagues contain a fair bit of fluff as well.

As for the Doom Reavers, they're a fun choice, although they don't really benefit from most support casters due to Spell Ward. Then again, between MAT 7, Weapon Master, and Abomination, they don't really need any support.

Then they are high-priority unit to attack for any opponent.

And sorry but that fluff went straight over my head.

VikingScott wrote:Then they are high-priority unit to attack for any opponent.

And sorry but that fluff went straight over my head.

Yep, regarding doom reavers, they are a priority model to remove for your opponent. They are squishy and capable of killing all models within 2" of them (and even putting large holes in Jacks and Beasts). Given they are squishy, if you throw them out in front of your army and let them hang there, they will likely die without accomplishing anything. If you hold them back a bit and are careful about how you apply them, they can single handedly decimate an opponents army.

As for the god part, I'll try to fill you in. First, remember that before Warmachine was the Witchfire set of RPG adventures -- the whole world was created around that and a very, very hefty world guide. There is a huge back story to Warmachine / Hordes and the story advances with each book Privateer Publishes (so it has advanced about 8 times so far) and then there are some short stories here and there in No Quarter Magazine and about a 15 page story at the beginning of each forces book.

Thousands (5 or 6ish) of years ago, the elves were the most powerful empire in the world. They were so advanced in magic and technology they got the bright idea to build a bridge into Urcane (Heaven / Hell / purgatory all rolled into one) to bring their gods over to the "real" world. Something went wrong, and as the gods crossed the bridge into the real world, it blew up leaving a giant rift in the middle of the continent, turned the lush farmland into wasteland, etc etc. The gods survived the explosion and a portion of the elven empire did as well, but the more time the gods spent in the real world, the weaker the got. The gods decided to look for a way back into Urcane, but something bad happened (no one knows what) and all but two of them were killed / disappeared / who knows. The remaining two gods (Nyssor and someone I'm not remembering) eventually returned to the elves and went into hibernation.

Roll forward 5990 years, and a dragon, named everblight (who leads the hordes faction Legion of Everblight) infiltrates and corrupts one of the two Eleven empires, the Nyss. The Nyss protecting Nyssor's hibernating body manage to escape from everblight only to be captured by Khador. Now a Greylord Wizard, Zerkova (also a warcaster) is doing experiments on Nyssor, and the Elves of the retribution aren't really very hot on that idea.

Well, technically it wasn't Urcaen. Urcaen is the home of the human (and trollkin, technically) gods. The Iosan gods reside in the Veld, which was apparently an entirely separate place. Before the damn dirty keeblers blew it up, anyway.

The second God for the Iosans is Scyrah, for whom the Retribution is named after.

Finally, the Nyss technically didn't have an empire. Rather, they lived in tribal units called Shards. Rather primitive for the most part, barring the Fane of Nyssor, where his priests lived.
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