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I am a pretty experienced 40k player and have been playing Mordheim also for a good amount of time. However, while I have a decent grasp on tactics in 40k, I literally can not seem to get a hold of the strategy of Mordheim. I recognize they are two completely different ball games, but my warhammer skills improved eventually...I'm still play just as bad as the day I started with Mordheim! Please if anyone has any tips, suggestions and strategies for me it would be much appreciated. FYI, I run a kislevite warband. I have one Druzhina captain w/ heavy armor, shield and sword, a tamed bear, one crossbow streltsi, and numerous models each armed with axes and bows that I play as warriors or youths.

First of all (Assuming you JUST made your Warband) drop the heavy armor; it's too expensive for starting warbands.

Another thing, is maximize your Heroes section right off the bat; it gets you more experiance and more loot, as it grants you more Exploration dice than going with two heroes and then henchies.

Yes definitely lose the armour - it's a complete waste of time, and the only time worth taking is if your group has modified the rules (usually 50% drop in cost or reduce strength-armour modification by 1, so str5 for -1 etc are the most common). 2 hand weapons are also by far the most effective combo (blunt weapon with one other), again to the point of being broken. Again though this is something that groups often change so you don't have the boring situation of every model on the table having the same weapon configuration.

Be really banal about moving your troops (keeping in cover) and try and attack with multiple units against a single enemy wherever possible. Harder troops can be very difficult to take out of action, and if your guys are supported they will be able to crawl away rather than get taken out of action instantly by someone being in base contact with them. Try and concentrate on the weaker opponents to make your opponent take break tests, the way 90% of mordheim games are won. Protect your own weaker guys (young heroes etc.) so they can get some skills. Just a few tips, hope that helps!

Well I think the main reason I bought the heavy armor was that there is a special rule for Druzhina Captains where he is able to buy one piece of equipment at half price, so should i still take it?

Depends on how many models are in your band. For our campaigns, as a human player, you didn't come to the board without 11-12 models to start. If you were playing skaven, it was closer to 14 or so. It was all about bodies. That half price suit or armor is another body on the field, and there are too many things that ignore armor - critical hits and high strength being easy to come by.

The above points are good ones (cover, ganging up, max heroes, two cheapo hand weapons). For us, even things like swords, helmets, etc. were end of campaign luxuries, not things we bought early or mid game.

Hrmmm...I mean the biggest problem atm is that all of my kislev models are armed with a bow and axe each. No two hand weapons. Is it really essential that I find some models with two hand weapons?

It really depends on whether your group is playing 'competitively' or as more of an RPG like game.

When we play in our campaigns, its pretty cutthroat and everyone is looking for advantages. The difference in that environment is that everyone takes two hand weapons.

A two-handed character is getting more attacks in combat, which means more chances to hit and wound, and possibly critical. A character with one weapon attacks...once. And only hits half the time. Sure, it'll have a 6+ save for the shield, but they'll critical as often as you save, so for all intents, its useless (but great when it saves!)

As an "RPG" type of game, then its more about looking cool, running bands of 4 or 5 guys all maxed out with armor, equipment, etc.

So it depends on how your group is planning to play.

Two thoughts: one is that every model comes with a dagger, so you have a free, built in extra weapon, if you buy a shield, then you can choose whether to use the shield, or two weapons in combat. That covers you wysiwyg and gives you the choice for two weapons (of course, you're spending coin on shields that you don't need to).

The second would be to ask your opponent whether you could run all your 'axe and shield' guys with 'two clubs" or "club and dagger". As long as they're all the same, they may let you slide until you either equip the models as they are, or bash up some other models.

*edit* Wow, I thought 'boxes' meant shields, when you meant bows... ooooh, that's expensive. Unless henchmen or heroes come with BS4 when you buy then, or are 'marksmen' types, don't give them bows (I'm not familiar with the Kislev list, so correct me if I'm off). Your henchmen should be cheap and replaceable (and expendable). Tamed bears, Rat Ogres, Wolves, etc. are good for psychology, but don't advance and tend to be a big points sink that get eclipsed by your promoted henchmen or your heroes in terms of capability pretty quickly.

My point about the free dagger, and bows = club 'counts as' still stand though.

One other thing. When I played Middenheim, I stuck to close combat, with a couple of shooters to keep the enemy honest (love me the blunderbuss). When I played Shadow Elves (hideously powerful), I tried to half fight and half shoot, which was a disaster until I built them to be pure shooty. The point is you want to figure out your band's strength or specialty, and then build in that direction with equipment, skills, etc. If you get the odd upgrade, or skill that puts someone out of the mold, then by all means use him, but if you go shooty, stick that way, and so on.

Well, usually I only pay the points for the axes and leave them without the bows, although bows and axes are modeled on them...they are solid metal models, so I didn't have much choice. We don't play real competitively, although everyone does try to win...thing is, I rarely, if ever win a game. Not only do I usually lose, but I get beaten to a pulp, usually having to restart my warband at least once and never gaining much experience :/ it's bad, that is kind of why I came here for suggestions. And ah I didn't realize I typed 'box' in my second post, sorry for the typo!

Then I think it would help to know:

1) how much terrain are you using on the table

2) what warbands are you facing, and what are they doing (shooting, rushing, mix, etc.)

3) What is happening when you lose - rout after minimum casualties, wiped from the board, etc.

Thats definitely a good point about terrain. As anyone who has played the 'high elf sniper army' or even bow equipped Reiklanders will know, you need adequate terrain, otherwise the game just turns into a standoff with the player who gets bored first thinking 'sod it' then running out into fire and getting killed.

If you're not playing super-competitively competitively then in my own opinion that is a good thing, as I would say you won't make the most out of the game ethos if you take that route.

There is a tooon of terrain on the table, we rarely have much open space at all, with lots of elevation changes. We have lots of 2 and 3 story buildings, a huge raised terrace, and a enormous chaotic tree thats about 3 feet tall with platforms and ladders all across it.

I play against Ostlanders, Lizardmen, Undead and Dwarves. All of them never really go for that standoff techinique or rely too much on shooting, the Lizardmen maybe the most with lots of skinks with short bows or blowpipes or something.

I lose routing right after 25% casualties and getting wiped from the board. Oftentimes to save my warband I voluntarily rout.

I started using an Elf Ranger to help me get extra stuff and for support, and then was able to put more guys into close combat since the elf had a much more effective range. After a few battles his help finding stuff paid for himself twofold.

Is he a merc?

Lots of terrain is good. Looking at the bands you are facing is telling. I put dwarves right up with shadow elves as one of the toughest bands to face. Lots of t4, and hard to take ooa, unless you can get numbers on them. Lizard men, I guess can pack some t4, but lots of shooting skinks is a challenge. Undead can be tough due to the vampire, and t4, fear causing ghouls.

Not being very familiar with the Kislev list means I can't help with list building other than to suggest going for numbers, a few weapons that increase your strength (flails, two hand hammers/swords - particularly on models w attack upgrades). You have to double and triple team dwarves in close combat. Skinks should be easier targets, but the ld of lizards is going to make them hard to rout. With undead, go for the dregs, zombies, dogs, etc, that are easier than the vamp and ghouls. Ostland are a human band, so general tactics will work.

As someone mentioned, play deliberately. Take your time moving from cover to cover and to set up charges, but dont be afraid to pile out to get the charge, and always voluntarily rout if you reach the threshold and still have all your heroes. losing the game doesnt matter except for an extra xp for the winning captain if if you can max your income, and avoid deaths.

Yes the Elf Ranger is a merc. I've yet to give him a try, but he's a usual recommendation by other witch hunter players to me. Personally I love crossbows far to much (gotta love S4 against T3 humans) but I may pick him up if my wardog snuggles dies in action this weekend.

First off, don't listen to anything Cruentus says. He's a cheesy powergamer.

Just kidding...we were in the same league together. There's a lot of good advice above Different warbands require different approaches. However, there are some tenets that IMO are fairly universal. Following is my personal view, much of which jibes with what's been said above.

1) Shooting is very powerful, no matter how much terrain you have. If you can cause casualties at range, you dictate the game dynamic and force your opponent to move. Having said that, you need to build a critical mass before you can accomplish this. You can do this through either massed missile fire (Reiklanders and Averlanders for instance) or by stacking shooting skills on your heroes (my approach with Witch Hunters). If you don't have much missile capacity for whatever reason, then you go the opposite route and load up on fast henchmen and speed skill heroes and try to cross distances quickly (Beastmen, and Chaos to some extent).

2) The reason shooting is so powerful is because CC is so dangerous, something you've probably seen. You want to protect your heroes as much as possible, and for this reason and others, a big, big part of the game is dictating that CC takes place on *your* terms.

3) The reason you want to protect your heroes is because they're what gives your warband the fuel it needs (wyrdstone). Take as many as possible to start, and don't sacrifice them needlessly. Your henchmen are your Star Trek redshirts...taking punishment is what they're there for. If you get a couple heroes put OOA, rout out of there.


How does this all come together? Well, in the case of my WH, I load up my heroes on shooting skills. With crossbows, Quick Shot and other skills, my heroes stay back and focus on causing some casualties at range. This tends to force my opponent to come at me. To counter this, I keep my henchmen and Priest in a big mass and play patty-cake. If his main advance is on my left, I edge left. If he comes right, I edge right.

Both with my henchmen movement and my hero positioning, I try to accomplish two things -- 1) keep their stuff off my heroes, and 2) set up kill zones for my opponent to cross. By positioning my henchmen near those kill zones, even if my crossbows only cause some knockdowns or stuns, that makes those models easy prey for my henchmen. So with a couple shooting OOAs and a couple CC OOAs, I hope to put my opponent in rout test territory quickly.

Again, different warbands require different approaches. With WH, my warband size is more limited, so I really don't want the game to turn into a brawl. An Undead warband would be looking to turn the game into a brawl. But the Undead band will still want to be shooting-aware (in this case seeking to get stuck in ASAP), provide a lot of mutual support between models (usually meaning massing up), protecting its heroes, etc.

I don't have experience running a Kislevite band, but human bands operate mostly similarly. If you come up with a solid game strategy, you should be able to adjust your band to fit. Human bands are flexible like that...it's probably their greatest strength.

Hope this helps.

That does help a lot, as does all of your replies. Thank you very much!

Here is a link to the Kislevite army list for those you that are unfamiliar-any tips you can give me on building after looking over it would be much appreciated.

http://tabletopgeeks.com/wp-content/downloads/warbands/Kislevite_Warband.pdf

With your advice, I think I'll run my youth heroes with bows, my druzhina captain with maybe a pistol, and all of my henchmen with axes (that is what
s modeled on them, maybe I'll feel ambitious and add a club or something).

I think the biggest difference between this warband and other human warbands is that they can use a bear...

Okay, that refreshes my memory on Kislevites. Part of the reason you're having problems is because they aren't one of the stronger human bands. There are also a few traps in the list. A few things jump out at me (note this is just my opinion and the way I'd do it, which isn't necessarily for everyone).

Cossacks and bears aren't as competitive as the other choices, for different reasons. Cossacks pay a premium for the Hate Chaos rule, which is frankly pretty poor. Consider that for the same price, Averlanders get Mountainguard with WS4, which is HUGE in game terms. Bears suffer from the same problem as all the big monsters in the game. They're nastiest early on, when you don't really have the funds to field them. Later on you'll have the funds, but everyone's warbands will be jacked up and very capable of handling it. And when someone takes it OOA (and it'll happen with criticals at some point) you have a 33% chance of it dying.

So with henchmen I'd focus on warriors and Streltsi. The Streltsi special rule is very weak also. Handguns may be the worst missile weapon in the game, and the combo with halberds is very pricey. Consider that Reiklanders get Marksmen with real BS4 with ANY weapon, no weird combos required. Since they're the same price/profile as Warriors, go for the Streltsi if you want, but don't go for that weird equipment. At least not until you've got the gold to blow. Just run them like Warriors for now.

The good news here is that Warriors and Streltsi are basically regular human henchmen...seemingly weak at first but actually very malleable and solid. Your equipment is a little more restricted than with most mercs, but there's enough to work with here. As others have said, you really can't go wrong starting with 28 gc henchmen...warriors with maces and free daggers.

With heroes, everyone but the Tamer can get Shooting skills. That's good. Youths start with low BS at first, which means they'll almost never hit anything with cover and move penalties. I'd scrap the bows for now until you get to BS3, which should be quickly. Then give them bows and get them out of harm's way. Quick Shot is the best Shooting skill because it doubles your firepower...I'd strongly consider that as my first upgrade on your heroes.

What would I field? At 500 gcs, I'd go with something like this. It isn't fluffy or colorful, but it would be effective. 499 gcs, 13 members, 5 shooters, 8 designed for cc. You could move one Warrior from the bow group to the plain mace group to save 10 gc and give you a little more in the bank to start. But I think the 3 shooters would work best.

Captain - xbow, mace, free dagger
Tamer - hammer, free dagger
Esaul - xbow, mace, free dagger
Youth - mace, free dagger
Youth - mace, free dagger

3 Streltsi - mace, free dagger
2 Warriors - mace, free dagger
3 Warriors - mace, bow, free dagger

If you're set on the pistol (not a big fan personally) and axes (maces are cheaper and better) for modeling reasons, you could try something like this. 485 gc, 12 guys, 5 shooters, 7 CC and 15 gcs in the bank. Still good numbers and mix of CC and shooting.

Captain - xbow, pistol, mace, free dagger
Tamer - hammer, free dagger
Esaul - xbow, mace, free dagger
Youth - mace, free dagger
Youth - mace, free dagger

2 Streltsi - axe, free dagger
2 Warriors - axe, free dagger
3 Warriors - axe, bow, free dagger

Edit: For both lists, the priority skill is Quick Shot for everything except the Tamer. I'd focus the Tamer on CC and therefore look at the Strength skill list for his first upgrade. Mighty Blow would be a nice one right off the bat for him. Priority stat upgrades are WS on the Tamer, BS on everyone else. Once you hit BS3, give the Youth bows immediately and get them off the front line. As your shooters get more accurate from stat increases and more volume thanks to Quick Shot, you'll see your opponents respecting your shooting more and more.

Yeah, that's the thing about my models, they are all solid metal models with an axe and a bow each, aside from the captain. I could try to go back and model some mace's on some of them...thanks a lot for the feedback guys!

Our group never demanded absolute WYSIWYG, just because that demands either a huge number of alternate models, or hacking apart the same models after every few games. The axes aren't a complete disaster, it's just that the extra armor save modifier is worth less than an increased chance to stun. In other words, if they're gonna make you change the models and you like the look of the axes anyway, just keep them and don't sweat it.