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Simply put, why do you accept or reject someone else using proxy models for a game like WHFB or WH40K?

I guess I'm asking this after reading a couple threads that have drawn ire over the use of Green Plastic Army Men (~1" tall, so proper height for TLOS and such, and on official bases) for IG substitutes.

Do you draw the line at only-official-models, only superior (near-identical) proxies, good approximations, rough ballpark, humanoid shape, or cardboard rectangles, assuming they all keep proper height/base/body size to avoid rule issues?

I understand that some people see it as unequal that someone is avoiding spending money for the hobby, which would be like entering a F-1 race with a Gremlin, while others see it as simply playing a game however you can, like using stones or shot glasses for chess.

What are your thought on this, Dakka?

The only reason I would accept it en mass, is if my opponent was considering a new army and wanted to play-test it first before they bought anything. Otherwise, I'd allow the occational proxy such as a Flamer in place of a Meltagun, or a Librarian's left his Jump Pack at home, but anything else I find annoying.

Living in South Africa, I find that many people don't have large armies due to the game being a bit of a part-part-part-time thing. Also, myself and my friend circle do a lot of other things which chow up our pocket money, etc. So we end up not having nearly as many models as we'd like to play a decent game...

If we're chilling in our grimdark basement, I don't have a problem with it because it means I can get a game in. But I really wouldn't like it even at social games at the FLGS... I accept non-WYSIWYG (although I myself am very tight about the issue), but proxy models I would deem as unacceptable out in public.

Valkyrie wrote:The only reason I would accept it en mass, is if my opponent was considering a new army and wanted to play-test it first before they bought anything. Otherwise, I'd allow the occational proxy such as a Flamer in place of a Meltagun, or a Librarian's left his Jump Pack at home, but anything else I find annoying.

I think this is a pretty good middle ground. I definitely agree with this here. Need to proxy that Sergeant looking guy as your Emperor's Champion? Fine.

Want to use that sloping PVC pipe as your drop pod because you don't feel like buying one? Fine in a friendly game, but definitely not in a tournament.

And before I forget... Oh, it's this thread again.

You should play with Like-minded gamers. If you want to play 40k with green army men and soda pop because only the game is important to you, then find a bunch of like-minded people to play that way with.

The issue is when someone wants to play a specific way and comes across people who are not like-minded and they are upset they were excluded from something. They then run to the internet to post a thread trying to claim the moral high-ground.

The standard is whatever two players agree to.

If you want to play at someone else's club or event, meet their standard or don't participate.

Find people who enjoy the standard you want to play and the world is fine.

I and id like to hope that most of the warhammer gamers wouldnt care if anyone used a proxy that was the general size of what it was supposed to be with knowledge of what its supposed to be in the event that the person wants to test an army or a unit or forgot thiers.

I do not however like it when people ONLY use the proxies with no intention on getting the proper models or ones that would be considered an upgrade over the gw version.

*Sets watch*

*Copy/Paste from last time.*

If someone is trying about a unit or army before they buy it (and they're a friend of mine), proxy is fine. But that allowance runs out for me quick. REALLY quick. I spend a lot of time and money on my hobby. Matching my painted Black Templar army up against your coke bottle drop pods isn't going to work.

Lol. I know this has been rehashed, but I'll try (and probably fail) to set it apart from the masses:

The question is more of why proxies are or are not acceptable?

My personal opinion (If you couldn't guess it already) is as follows: The chess analogy.
Does playing chess require both players have a set of precious-metal pieces, or should both sets match or complement each other?

I understand people dislike playing against an army based on poor visual appearance (The gakky house in the neighborhood devalues the nearby houses theory), but I guess I see that (imo only) as being upset someone is playing against your solid-gold chess set with a set of chess shot-glasses or plastic pieces. While they may visually be different or clashing, the underlying gameplay has not changed.

I completely agree that an important aspect of Warhammer is the appearance of the models and armies, especially when set against each other in a tournament setting with both armies being visually appealing. But does or should that take precedence over the actual game itself? Should a game that can be played completely by the rules without issues be disallowed simply because of it's appearance?

Is a man entitled to the sweat of his brow?...

Proxies are acceptable in a non tournament setting because of the vast amounts of options. I don't expect anyone to have every exact model for every exact configuation available. I expect there to be consistancy or logic in their choice of proxies. I would rather play 10 games against 10 different army layouts then 10 games against the exact same list. As you find what you like I believe most will start to purchase towards that list but still collect those other models they swap around from time to time.

I don't mind proxies as long as they are properly modelled. If you don't have a drop pod, make and paint one, don't use a plastic bottle. Is it so hard?

darkPrince010 wrote:, the underlying gameplay has not changed.

And you are trying to claim the moral highground that only the raw metagame is what matters. Many people do not play this way as it is not an RTS. In the end, you need to play with like-minded gamers... not claim that the raw game is the only thing that matters and all other aspects don't exist.

Also, I would say that the game becomes unplayable in many proxy situations so the visual aspect does directly impact gameplay.

I'm not saying the raw metagame is all that matters, I'm simply saying that some people prefer appearance and uniformity (Something that tends to clash with most proxies) over the bare-bones rplayability. I am not one of those people The questions were more meant to be thought-provoking conversation-starters, not inflammatory attacks. My apologies if they were misconstrued.

I claim absolutely no high ground in bringing my collection of different rocks to the proverbial Grandmaster chess games, I was simply pointing out my (biased) view on the subject

As for the visual aspect affecting gameplay, that's when I personally consider proxies unnacceptable. Plastic army men within 1/16th of an inch to IG height? That's ok by me. Plastic army men towering an inch above even Space Marines? Not so ok...

darkPrince010 wrote:Lol. I know this has been rehashed, but I'll try (and probably fail) to set it apart from the masses:

The question is more of why proxies are or are not acceptable?

My personal opinion (If you couldn't guess it already) is as follows: The chess analogy.
Does playing chess require both players have a set of precious-metal pieces, or should both sets match or complement each other?

I understand people dislike playing against an army based on poor visual appearance (The gakky house in the neighborhood devalues the nearby houses theory), but I guess I see that (imo only) as being upset someone is playing against your solid-gold chess set with a set of chess shot-glasses or plastic pieces. While they may visually be different or clashing, the underlying gameplay has not changed.

I completely agree that an important aspect of Warhammer is the appearance of the models and armies, especially when set against each other in a tournament setting with both armies being visually appealing. But does or should that take precedence over the actual game itself? Should a game that can be played completely by the rules without issues be disallowed simply because of it's appearance?

Well, you have your answer then: Go play chess.

Your analogy breaks down quickly. Chess usess the same models all the time. You don't need to paint chess pieces. All armies are equal, and no advantage is gained by using better quality pieces.

I'd continue but IT"S THAT STUPID THREAD AGAIN?

Should a game that can be played completely by the rules without issues be disallowed simply because of it's appearance? Yes. Painting and modeling are part of the game.

Is a man entitled to the sweat of his brow?... Don't see you sweating too much if you're playing with unpainted proxies and green armie men. But if I work and sweat to get my army done, I'd enjoy a game better if my opponent put some work into his.

Try playing Chess proxying pawns for your Rooks. Let me know how that turns out.

darkPrince010 wrote:The question is more of why proxies are or are not acceptable?

I dislike proxies (which is different from would never allow or use them) because they are, to me, "rude."

They're potentially confusing. Is that guy with the meltagun actually a rocket launcher? Is that box a Rhino or a Land Raider? This means the game is slower and/or not as fun. I've taken fun away from my opponent.

They reduce immersion. Miniature wargames are also called 'hobby games' because people like playing on evocative, aesthetically pleasing tables.Sure, most people sometimes use books under a sheet (or forget the sheet) but most people would prefer sculpted hills and detailed buildings if it's an option. I've heard of people whose main reason for attending tournaments is to play on nicely detailed tables. Looks matter, and it is frustrating if your painted, based, and 100% correct force is facing a force of half-assembled, unpainted, and proxy models.

However, 'rude' is an intentionally fuzzy term. I try to be polite (not-rude) to strangers. I try to be polite to friends. However, part of being friends is allowing and accepting a bit of rudeness from each other. Am more accepting of rude behavior from friends because there's other things involved in friendship that exceed this.

I also am more accepting of this form of rudeness from 'children' which in this case can include any beginners. New to the game? Not a big deal if you're learning and using proxies a bit. 20 year veteran? You probably either have a painted army or two, or should perhaps work towards that.

it is completely subjective in this case. Events may have hard and fast rules, though.

I personally have no problem with proxies as long as its not a permanent matter.

I have a friend who MADE a Great Unclean One with Greenstuff, 100% Citadel Greenstuff. The model looks awesome and everyone in our FLGS likes it.

I started playing necrons around the time the new codex rumours started to come out. I didn't know about it before I started playing so now I find it a little pointless to buy new models besides the 1500 list I have since new "better" models are on their way.

Result: 3 Fire Warriors are proxied Necron Warriors...and someimes I use a Die to represent a Tomb Spyder's Scarab Swarm.

I don't mind proxying models as long as there is a limit or a good reason for it. I play Orcs & Goblins and there is the Mangler Squig model which has not been released yet. If I want to use it, I'll have to proxy it. I also understand people who don't have a lot of money to buy all the stuff they want but still want to play.

However... I don't like it when people show up with an army that is 70% proxy, simply because they are either bored to paint, or have other models that they believe could fill in the same role. Sure, size is approximately the same but I tire of seeing a friend of mine using the same bunch of skeletons for his Vampire Counts, Chaos Marauders and Brettonian Peasants.
Boring...

Proxies are fine if you are simply trying something new. I used to do it, as did my friend. I wanted to try a Whirlwind out, so I used a Rhino for it. I just made sure that there was no confusion. As long as it's not permanent - you actually end up buying the unit youre trying out, go for it.

If someone can't afford to pay for the miniatures then I have complete sympathy with using proxies. If it's clear what everything is, then I will happily play them. Though I do prefer properly modelled and nice looking armies, obviously.
With proxies, clarity is the most important thing.

Jack Daniels bottle as monolith. Always acceptable.

Well, this has been covered before, but I'll address it again.

Before I do, I recommend checking out a poll that I ran a couple months back asking those whose primary interest in the hobby is gaming (rather than modeling) what's their minimum standard for miniature gaming playing pieces.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/364198.page
A third of them said they would be fine with non-GW models or less (chits, armymen, etc).

Now then...
For proxying, I just don't want having to remember what's what to take away from the game. Thus there are a few ways that proxies or counts-as can be handled well. There are probably other ways, but these are proxies that I would accept.

1) Use a unit that is armed similarly. Chaos marines with CCW subbing for assault marines. Space Dwarves with bolters instead of Space Marines, etc.

2)Be consistent. I have no problem with non-GW armies as long as they are armed, sized, and equipped similarly to what they are representing. If you're subbing a bunch of SHockforce troopers for IG then all the laser guns should be lasrifles, all the HMG's are autocannons, etc, etc.

If you're using army men (most army men are considerably larger than GW figs by the way) then all assault rifles are lasrifles, bazooka's are ML's, etc.

3) Be Painted. Whether it's a bunch of bare army men or a bunch of unpainted GW stuff it doesn't matter to me. If it ain't painted I don't want to play against it more than once. Sorry, see my earlier postings on this issue. Part of this is my enjoyment of a well presented wargames. Part of this is just wanting to see some effort. If you're proxying for IG, there's a difference to me between plunking down a bunch of unpainted army men (lame), and breaking out some painted Void Viridian marines (cool).

There are undoubtedly folks who disagree. Some only want GW models, while on the other end are fine with chits. In the end it's ok, as there are enough of us around that hopefully we can all find folks who have the same gaming goals and standards.

It should also be noted that, in 2nd edition 40k, GW put in cardboard cutout dreadnoughts for use in the game.

-Loki- wrote:It should also be noted that, in 2nd edition 40k, GW put in cardboard cutout dreadnoughts for use in the STARTER SET.

Fixed.

If a 9 year old showed up with his 300pts in orks and a cardboard dread, one of us would help him learn the game. If a 20 year old showed up with 3 of them because he was cheap, we were less sympathetic.)

I have no problem with proxies if someone wants to try something out before buying it, but it's kind of a bummer when someone proxies all kinds of crap all the time. It gets old fast. For example, a kid at the FLGS in my home town would literally just get uberlists off the internet and then proxy 80% of his minis. I know I've brought this up several times, but I will repeat: soda can drop pods.

If you can tell what the proxy is without having to ask then then i say go for it whatever the reason. Like this what is it supposed to be?







I know easy one, but its easy to see how someone might not know who this is .

So i wouldn't use him.

If someone were to put together an entire army of Imperial Guard out of green army men, I might let them. Although now I want to build a guard army and paint them all like green army men...

If someone wants to just try something out, I don't care. If it's a real life friend, I don't care.

If it's some dude who consistently busts out a bunch of plastic cups and pennies, he can GTFO.

I spent a lot of time and money building and painting my armies, and showing up with half-ass proxies is insulting to the game in general and me in specific.

As to what actually constitutes an unacceptable proxy, it's impossible to say exactly. It's like obscenity - I know it when I see it. A good rule of thumb is whether or not someone put any effort into it (again, barring someone who wants to test something out or forgot something).

Why is it acceptable?

- Because it's a game and it's not that big a deal if you're just putzing around, trying out the hobby, or playing a game on your kitchen table. I just don't care that much. Just like playing chess with coins or whatever that above example was.

Why is it unacceptable?

- For a 'serious' gamer (this strikes me as an oxymoron of sorts) or modeler, I can see how someone might cast aspersions on someone who wants to play pretend with their pretend game. After all, we put a lot of effort into making our pretend alien space soldiers look less pretend. That said, to go back to the chess analogy, if a guy with a beautiful hand-carved teak and mahogany chess set invited me over to play, i wouldn't bring pogs as my pieces.

I think it depends more on the actual gamer the proxyist is looking to play against than any absolute ethical guideline.

I don't mind proxies as long as you can tell what's going on with the model. Constantly having to ask which one is that? Or, what is he armed with? These questions get really annoying and I get fed up quick... Is that a sniper rifle or a bolter on that guy? As long as I know what the model is armed with without having to ask, and as long as the proxy is a proper representative of size, I don't usually have a problem. I also don't like rules bending... I recently played a 500 point game against a friend that threw together an army that wasn't legal. Because I was reteaching myself and him the rules I let it slide (and because I tabled him!), but showing up with an illegal army list simply because you don't agree with the way a codex is written is BS! His issue was that the Razorback/Rhino wasn't an available heavy support option, and only dedicated transport. So he decided it should be cool to field one as a Heavy Support option for his scouts... Meh... Whatever, after seeing his list I knew I had him, but it was still annoying.

-Loki- wrote:It should also be noted that, in 2nd edition 40k, GW put in cardboard cutout dreadnoughts for use in the game.

More recently (well within 8 years) the Battle Games in Middle Earth magazine also contained card cutouts of painted figures so you could use them alongside the miniatures to fight battles. The main idea being you used them until you built up your forces with actual miniatures. One of the best ones was the cut out tentacles to represent the Watcher at Khazad Dum.