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I saw a six dread army being played the other day.  It looked a little bland to me -- six assault cannon dreads, several tornados, terminator command (with assault cannons of course), and a couple of las/plas squads.  Maybe it was effective and fun, but I didn't really get a chance to watch much of the action. 

I did, however, hear lots of cries of cheese.  Several of us discussed what would make a good six dread list and whether or not it was competative, over-the-top, or crap.  Oddly, we were pretty evenly split.  We had some ideas for basic army configurations that seemed pretty decent (although mostly just TheoryHammer), and a couple ideas that were completely bizarre.  (Example: Heed the Wisdom combined with Swift as the Wind for an army composed entirely of Bikes, Speeders, and Dreads.  Yeeesh.)

Anyways, here are a couple of basic ideas that sounded reasonable.  I'm not going to give entire lists since I found that these things pretty much write themselves once you have your concept visualized.

• Tons of assault cannons version -- basically the army we saw.  Looked a little boring with practically every weapon being the same, but I imagine its probably effective.  Or, would the versatility of a couple of Las/ML dreads overcome the efficiency of the a-cannon?
• Iron Hands Techmarine Commander version -- I've never played with techmarines, but it seems like if they would work anywhere, it would be here.
• Dropped Dreads  -- would get those cannons up close and personal, but do you *really* want to do that?
• I guess both of those last two could be combined with the assault cannons only idea.

So, what's the consensus on the Six Dread Army of Doom (tm)?  How would you conceptualize it, and how effective is it?

If I ever saw a 6 dreadnought army, it had better make some sort of sense.  If it didn't have a techmarine, then zero comp.  If every dread had an assault cannon, then zero comp.  That kind of army would be screaming to use the Forgeworld siege dreadnoughts or something different like that.  I really don't like the idea behind the list you saw being played.  It seemed like someone really likes assault cannons and didn't think of anything else.  Dreadnoughts just happened to be an easy way to take assault cannons.

There is a difference between a player who likes dreadnoughts and a git who likes assault cannons. 

- Oaka

I run a similar army; however, mine only have assault cannons on two of them, with a multi-melta on one and twin-linked lascannons on the rest. I don't agree on the Techmarine bit, though; that's like saying, because you have Predators/Speeders/etc., you have to have a Techmarine to "maintain" them. A Tech, especially with the present rules, is a REMF; he's back at base camp, playing with his... wrenches...

The Venerable upgrade is a godsend; mine seem to soak up hits like water, and keep going.

REMF?

- Oaka

What's so bad comp-wise about the 6 dread force...Even with assault cannons?

Dreads tend to be quite fragile in my experience, and the 6 Dreads are a themed force by themselves.

Would you 0 comp someone for just taking Assault cannons on thier terminators rather than some cyclones/heavy flamers or only taking AC Tornados instead of some melta Tornados?

6 Dreads!? Oh noes!!!11!

Come on. AV12? That's just not that great. And they move 6" per turn. Now, if they all dropped, then you might be onto something. That could actually be quite nasty. But instant zero comp if there's no techmarine? Come on. AV12 can only be so nasty, even if the 3 venerables let you re-roll the die. And a single weapon destroyed makes them only half as effective.

A top tier army should be able to tear something like this apart.

Actualy, didn't there used to be rules for an all dread BA list? As it stands now the 6 dread drop pod BA list is fun. 3 furioso and 3 regular. I was actually considering making that list. The rest of the army would probably be scouts.

Well in the past I've run the 6 dropping dread list. It was fairly effective as my sig shows.
The rest of the list consisted of:
Librarian Termi Command with 2 assault cannons
3x Dropping 6 man 2 melta tac. squads
1 tornado
The list does fairly well.

Oaka writes:

If I ever saw a 6 dreadnought army, it had better make some sort of sense.  If it didn't have a techmarine, then zero comp.  If every dread had an assault cannon, then zero comp. 

I saw that you wrote something Oaka, but all I could read was; WA WA WA.  Can't beat 6 AV12 tanks eh?  Zero comp eh?

Comp, the equalizer for people who can't choose a competative list and can't think their way out of a paper bag.  Why do you go to tournaments? What do you expect?  Would you automatically zero the demon bomb, or the all fearless army or  the all infiltrating army, the all genestealer army, necrons and 3 monoliths, the Godzilla nids, the Pathfinder pregame barrage, the min max Mauleed Marines? Maybe players should just publish a  list of what makes them feel ok before a tournament...

Everyone has a different idea of fair, lighten up.

BTW I played 5 dreads and a techmarine in a list last weekend and went 3-0 and left tire tracks all over the place. Just for fun, they were all venerable too.  Play to win, or get out of the way.

bigchris1313 writes:

...Dreads!? Oh noes!!!11!... Come on. AV12? That's just not that great. And they move 6" per turn...

...A top tier army should be able to tear something like this apart...

Precisely, thank you, the voice of reason! (I might say a top tier player.)

They also only have 24 inch range, and stink in escalation, and get overun in hand to hand vs tyranids and other weaknesses.  There are no dangerous armies only dangerous players.  (There are however some really bad armies and some really sad players.)

heh I get comp complained all the time. People who don't know what comp should even be complain about comp. I run a drop podding BA army which is not only fairly fluffy..it screams Blood Angels. I use no termies and still am unbeaten, but hey.

Oaka-

REMF = Rear Eschelon Mother F***er; it's grunt slang for the guys who get to shave, bathe in hot water, and sleep well each night, as opposed to the guys who are out on the sharp end, getting shot at.

The only way I would ever run 6 dreads is:

6 dreads in drop pods with heavy flamers and assault cannons + extra armor, 3 of them having to be venerable of course, so ~ 960 pts

Then two command squads full of termies with assault cannons and two minimum sized scout squads.

Or at 2000 pts, go up to 2 troop squads in drop pods with meltaguns.

I happen to love my dreadnaughts and am known for fielding alot of them, I have tried out both of the major variations but here are a few of my favored tactics. . .

The Dread March: Deploying 3 squads of infantry behind three or more dreadnaughts, the infantry are usually armed and organized like this the unit with Flamers up close behind, the plasma guns or melta guns right behind them, and then Terminators with assault cannons or cyclones behind them. . .

I have tried to experiment with a Tech-marine directly behind them along with some tech servitors and it worked reasonably well. . .

Do not try that if he has any dangerous blast weapons, I didn't notice he had a demolisher leman russ in reserve once it came in and popped 2 of the terminators with that ordinance 6

Speeder Doom: Basically this is alot like the Dread March, but you use 3 Land Speeder Tornadoes in a tight column behind 3 dreadnaughts, when you get close enough you pop out and kill everything with 3 assault cannons and 3 heavy bolters.

Bunker Suprise: To be honest this was more of a mistake than any sort of plan, I forgot i had a dreadnaught inside a building with an objective and in turn 5 his little squad came up and hopped out of a rhino, just in time to get squished. . .

Oh and yes, I do normally play with a couple assault cannon/heavy flamer variants, and a couple las-missile dreads for anti-tank. . .

I mixed up composition and theme again, sorry.  The composition of a six-dread army is fine, like many of you said it can be beaten easily by quite a few different armies.  But its the theme of the first army list that I would have a problem with.  Its not really the six dreads that bothers me (unless they are cookie-cutter units), but rather the whole list itself.  Two tactical marines for every dreadnought just doesn't seem right.

If I see a six-dread army I'd like to look at it as a six-dread army, not an army that purchases assault cannons.  Scratch the techmarine comment, he really isn't efficient no matter how you tool him up.  I'm sticking with the siege dreadnought idea though, that is just such a unique unit that it would make sense for an army that specializes in dreadnoughts to give it time on the battlefield.

- Oaka

Just realize Oaka, every single time you (or anyone else) whines about comp a significant minority of players will respond with (or worse, simply think silently):

"I saw that you wrote something Oaka, but all I could read was; WA WA WA.  Can't beat 6 AV12 tanks eh?  Zero comp eh?

Comp, the equalizer for people who can't choose a competative list and can't think their way out of a paper bag.  Why do you go to tournaments? What do you expect?  Would you automatically zero the demon bomb, or the all fearless army or  the all infiltrating army, the all genestealer army, necrons and 3 monoliths, the Godzilla nids, the Pathfinder pregame barrage, the min max Mauleed Marines? Maybe players should just publish a  list of what makes them feel ok before a tournament..."

If that's OK with you, fantastic. But then don't waste your time defending yourself. Stick with the way you feel.

 

Ok here is another point in favor of the 6 dreadnaught list being completely reasonable even with out maxing out on the assault cannons. . .

Basic mix of 50% anti-troop and Anti-Vehicle
3 assault cannons + 3 heavy flamers, 3 Twin Linked Las-cannons + Missile Launchers

The types of units that can have the same anti-armor weaponry or better are. . .
Predator Annihalator: 145 Minimum
Devastators 1 las-cannon, 1 missile launcher, 5 troops = 130 points minimum
Command Squad : 1 las-cannon, 1 missile launcher, 5 troops = 130 points minimum + 60 point minimum Commander
Tactical squad + Razor back: 85 points minimum for marines + 90 for Razorback with Las-cannon

Now the Minimum for the Dreadnaught is 135 points to have a Twin Linked Las-cannon and a Missile Launcher

So they suddenly are more efficient as heavy support with Missile Launchers, and Twin Linked las-cannons than any other choice except devastators, but their tougher than devastators, and for something further in their favor if bought as elites they can gain a strength 10 weapon versus vehicles for only 30 points, making them tougher stronger versions of the Tau broadside. . .

So in closing for efficieny in a marine list go for either 6 Dreadnaughts as 50% or buy 3 assault cannon versions and use devastators.

It seems like people often see an army that has maxed out on some aspect and immediately have a knee-jerk reaction. The good players settle down and look for the weaknesses that are always present in such a lopsided force. I find that if I'm smacking around a guy who is demoralized by my moderately-effective-but-extremely-themed armies, I can point out that I'd just roll over to Tactic X, and I might be able to salvage a comp point. On the other hand, if I were to take one squad of each type of unit, someone would hammer my comp by saying that it wasn't themed at all. Sucks, but that's life.

Anyways, I was looking at ways of compensating for this list's weaknesses. Drop pods look like a decent way to get those 24" cannons up close and personal, but then my fuzzy math kicked in:

Six dreads + tyranids (and the like) = bad times
Drop pods + tyranids (and the like) = bad times
Six dreads + drop pods + tyranids = really bad (2x) times

I had a crazy idea (no, not bikes). Mauleed has previously mentioned a Rhino or two as a screen for assault marines. Obviously, it wouldn't be as effective here since the dreads are also vehicles, but would a 50 point piece of terrain be worth it? Maybe not, but hey -- just trying to think outside of the box a bit.

Frankly if you run into that many tyranids that you immediately look at a list and go ouch, spend the 70 for the razor back with the heavy bolter. . .

Who knows maybe with 2 of them you can get him to run clear across the board and then you can deepstrike with the drop pods in a place he can't really get to well?

In my mind if your going to run the 6 dread, you have to have drop pods. The drop pods block LOS, or give you hull down, depending where you play, they allow your dreads to get into effective range, and if done right can allow you to cut an enemy line in half. Not only that but against hordes of troops, you have the nice advatnge of 6 extra stormbolters, which on average you'll hit 4, just a nice little bonus. The deathwind launcher can be effective as well in massed numbers.

I cannot imagine ever taking the S10 power weapon away from a dread to give him...a missile launcher. And paying points for it. No sir.

A las/hevy bolter predator is always better than a shootie dreadnought. Dreads are great cos they are flexible. Don't take that away and give them a bleeding missile launcher.

Actually a Las/HB Predator is not better because your mixing weapons and ranges. . .

Lets compare the basic builds

130 points points minimum for that predator, 6 shots from heavy bolters and 1 from twin linked las-cannon?
Ranges are 48, & 36 and if your firing a Las-cannon at something odds are your hb's won't do squat. . .

160 pointsNow lets say for some odd reason you want to use predator the most efficient way, with both weapon systems the same. . . You would need to give it the Power of the Machine Spirit so it could fire at two different targets. . .

135 points for a dreadnaught to fire both a Twin linked Las-cannon, and a Missile Launcher
Range 48 for both weapons, with the same type of target being shot at. . .

165 points for a venerable dreadnaught with tank hunter to fire both a Twin linked Las-cannon, and a Missile Launcher Range 48 for both weapons, with the same type of target being shot at. A single "Siege" dreadnaught will destroy even a Monolith 23% of the time

I like to put my Techmarine with 3 servators, base to base, behind 2 tl-laz/missile Ven dreads. With good fire lanes and some cover, they can really tear stuff up and with the Techmarine, can really soak up incoming fire. The rest of the list is 4 asscan/hv-flamer dreads, 5 laz/plaz squads, 1 6 man assault scout squad some assault marines and a speeder.

Centurion.

A las/hevy bolter predator is always better than a shootie dreadnought. Dreads are great cos they are flexible. Don't take that away and give them a bleeding missile launcher.

Sure, but because this entire thread is based on 6 Dread armies, I suppose we have to go along and play the game, eh?

The worst part of this arguement is...deathwind launchers are on the pods, not the dreads...

Dreads aren't nearly as abusive of assault cannons as Lysander. If someone was truly an obsessive Assault Cannoneer, they'd play Lysander and twenty-four other Terminators backed by nine Tornadoes.

I'd have to disagree with citadel about those twin-linked lascannon, unless we're talking GK dreads, where they're forced to play poor-man's predator. There isn't much of a comparison between an Annihilator, which moves twice as fast and has two proper lascannon to the missile launcher carried by a similar dread, in addition to having better frontal armour. The Devs with lascannon aren't the best comparison, IMHO - six with three missile launcher is a bit fairer. The Dread does still compare somewhat favourably, especially because it is an Elites choice. I'll agree that the Dread is stronger than Devs - the only advantage Devs have is the ability to infiltrate in traited armies. Ditto the Command Squad, but that's an unfair comparison for other reasons, ie, the Dread won't give your army LD9/10 and heroes pay for their combat-oriented statline. The tac squad is more expensive, true, but it can carry one more gun and is two separate targets, compared to one for the Dread. Plus it's a troops choice. For me what it boils down to is that a TLLC isn't worth 20 points more than an assault cannon unless your army can't get lascannon pretty much anywhere else, whereas the missile launcher is definitely worth ten points more than a powerfist for a unit that's all ready packing heat and only has two attacks. It gives you shots, as opposed to taking them away.

Interesting Anaysis. I would like to point out that the fist is incredably usefull if you drop pod the dread (which I always would). It allows the dread to be a viable threat in combat. I never take any weapon upgrades. Assult cannon out of a drop pod is all I need.

6 dreads are not so tough I have faced it twice.  First time I played him I went first and came forward with two tac squads and a hq squad and jumped out to rapidfire his speeders killing two and stunning and taking weapon off the third.  On his turn he moved forward 6" with everything and reaped havoc on my squads.  No one routed and next turn I just moved forward with two meltaguns in each squad, moved my three multimelta speeders forward.  Between 3 multimelta shots from speeders, 5 meltagun and one plasmagun shot from troops and three charges that also tied up his two tac squads I took out all 6 dread before he got a second turn.

I later did the math on it and it was not that far off of just average rolling.

At that point I had lost about 15 marines and he had lost half his army. 

The second time I played the same guy and it took me till my third turn to take out all 6 with similiar results.  I just don't have much confidence in the build.

I may play with more meltaguns than the average army but it is a troop heavy assault force.

 

The test of a concept isn't two games against one guy. Your experience is countered by my successes with the multi-Dread concept, so it's pretty null-and-void.

Well, Wulfy I can see why you didn't have many issues with his army, your loaded for bear with that list sheesh. . .

2 tac squads and a command squad with melta guns, and 3 multi-melta speeders?

Do you run into alot of IG where you are or something?