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So I used to hook up with my friends and play games. We all had fun, and all was right with the world.

But then I went and made the terrible mistake of getting good at those games. It was a natural thing to do. I enjoyed the games so practised and studied them a bit. It was fun for a short while being the best, and the others enjoyed the challenge, and were eager to learn more so they could beat me. But as time went on I got trapped in the positive feedback loop, making bigger and bigger improvements, and the games become increasingly more one-sided.

Yesterday I met up with my friends and played three games, winning all three easily. It wasn't really fun for anyone. Even before the games started we all knew who was going to win, and we didn't speak much during the games. My friends didn't even seem to enjoy the games they played against each other. One of them commented that it must be really dull for me watching people who both suck play each other. I feel like one more session like yesterday, and I will have succeeded in killing their enthusiasm completely.

I don't know what to do. It sucks for them because they can't win, and they just end up being my punch bag. It also sucks for me because being the best at a game that no one wants to play is a waste of time and energy. I know there are other games and other opponents, but these are my favourite games, and my favourite people to play them with. I just wish there was some way I could encourage them to keep playing and pick up their game a little bit.

I've tried going easy on them and throwing them chances, and playing wild reckless strategies that shouldn't work. But they make a lot of silly mistakes, and consistently fail to punish me for things I do badly. There are only so many punches I can pull, until it just seems more merciful to put them out of their misery and end it quickly.

I think I definitely have to act soon, or game nights with my friends will be replaced by poker nights (which is meh). I have considered just throwing a game. But it's difficult to do that convincingly, and it doesn't really help anyone improve, or reward them for playing better. I will also have to endure endless gloating and bragging. I've also thought about maybe acting really cocky, so that the others will my motivated by hatred to improve and beat me (of course that could backfire in about a million ways).

This isn't the first time I've encountered this kind of problem. It used to happen a lot with computer games before online play. One person would always be way better than everyone else (Usually the person who owned the game) and playing against them become a bit pointless. I'm sure other people have experienced this too.

Any advice on how to fix this?

You can play 2 vs 2, with you and your friend on the same team. That'll even the playing field and everyone is happy!

Or even go against them all as a team with you as your own team. Could also talk to them about it and see if you can work it out. Careful with the phrasing though so you don't make them feel bad.

Then there's always just sitting out from a few games and helping them.

Smacks wrote:I don't know what to do. It sucks for them because they can't win, and they just end up being my punch bag. It also sucks for me because being the best at a game that no one wants to play is a waste of time and energy.

...

Any advice on how to fix this?

Drop this attitude when playing against them. There's a time and a place to be super competitive, and when you and your mates are having a few beers (or whatever) and just pushing plastic men around the table to kill an afternoon is not that time.

You say you tried playing recklessly and going easy on them - did this extend to your army list? While you might be making optimised lists to maximise effiency, they might not be, which makes going easy on them rather hard.

Basically, make lists with cool stuff, not super optimised, when playing against friends, if that's what they're doing. Don't look at it as a way to be better than them at something, because this hobby isn't always about being the best. It's about sitting around, having a laugh, and wasting time, and that sounds like what your friends are doing.

And never expect - or tell them - to lift their game and get better, because that's just going to piss a casual player off even more. If you actually still want to play against them and, well, be friends with them too, play at their level. Otherwise you'll wind up without them as gaming buddies, as you're finding out.

LunaHound wrote:You can play 2 vs 2, with you and your friend on the same team. That'll even the playing field and everyone is happy!

This is excellent advice.

-Loki- wrote:

Smacks wrote:I don't know what to do. It sucks for them because they can't win, and they just end up being my punch bag. It also sucks for me because being the best at a game that no one wants to play is a waste of time and energy.

...

Any advice on how to fix this?

Drop this attitude when playing against them. There's a time and a place to be super competitive, and when you and your mates are having a few beers (or whatever) and just pushing plastic men around the table to kill an afternoon is not that time.

You say you tried playing recklessly and going easy on them - did this extend to your army list? While you might be making optimised lists to maximise effiency, they might not be, which makes going easy on them rather hard.

Basically, make lists with cool stuff, not super optimised, when playing against friends, if that's what they're doing. Don't look at it as a way to be better than them at something, because this hobby isn't always about being the best. It's about sitting around, having a laugh, and wasting time, and that sounds like what your friends are doing.

And never expect - or tell them - to lift their game and get better, because that's just going to piss a casual player off even more. If you actually still want to play against them and, well, be friends with them too, play at their level. Otherwise you'll wind up without them as gaming buddies, as you're finding out.

This, is essentially EXACTLY what you need to do!


I've a super compettative guy at my game night. I hate the guy. Never want to play him, UNLESS i want a challenge and i feel i have gotten an awesome list out the bag and enough tactics and brainjuice flowing at the time to smash him to pieces.

The rest of the time, i just play games with my mates and take the piss with it

Ross, you've taken 3 units of 3 Pyrovores??? and Filled out all your Forceorg with Ripper Swarms and Skyslasher Swarms??? ARE YOU INSANE???

No... I just couldn't give two feths if i win or not. The army looks awesome on the table !

(Oh boy)

Quit your whining Maggot!!!!

You actually made me physically ill with this little gem (below), I may have to bill you for the cost of cleaning my carpet!

Smacks wrote:

This isn't the first time I've encountered this kind of problem. It used to happen a lot with computer games before online play. One person would always be way better than everyone else (Usually the person who owned the game) and playing against them become a bit pointless. I'm sure other people have experienced this too.

Any advice on how to fix this?

It sounds like a letter about erectile dysfunction written into one of those Dear Debra columns you get in tacky womens magazines.

If your friends suck, and you keep wiping the floor with them, and additionally, if this is a problem for you, you need to get them to improve their game. So yes, the best way to do this is as the poster above me says, play some two on two games, take that opportunity to involve your partner in your logic and reasoniong behind your strategy. Soon you'll have some like minded friends to play against.

After that, you need to stop being so morose and mopey (oh boohoo you're good at something, my heart bleeds for you and all the unintentional victories you keep taking), if I was one of your friends I would have gone all Chuck Norris on your face for that last post. Do you know what makes Chuck Norris so awesome? His balls man. Grow a pair, and do what has to be done!!!

Out of interest what game are you playing?

If it is something like 40k you can quite easily make a less optimal army in most cases, try some odd weapon load outs and things like that. I have to be honest, I find your post a little odd considering the random nature of the game - I've had games where I have totally outmanoeuvred my opponent, and with a better army match up, yet lost because of the cruelty of the dice gods, and had exactly the opposite thing happened where I have fluked a win against a much better set-up and organised player, who has used better tactics. So, with the caveat that you are playing a GW core game (40k in particular) I find your circumstances quite odd.

Otherwise its like any other game, sport you care to mention, and if you are that much better than your opponents then the onus on you is to not to play so 'well'. I regularly play games of tennis in a social setting and against people who are not at my level. Do I smash the ball past them point after point? No, I just hit it a bit softer.

Sounds like you should spend your time coaching your friends if they want to be better. Not by standing there and telling them how to move, but more in a coversational manner, prehaps in a 2 v 2 game where the 'generals' would converse about tactics. Just don't hog the convo and encourage your friend to come up with his own thoughts - if they don't work don't berate him for it (they're not real soldiers so no waste of life lol)

Also from your studying, I suspect you've just found some netlists and spammed top tier against your casual gamer friends. Make your own lists that includes none of the favoured elite units and then see how the Dice Gods favour you.

I don't think I'm especially competitive. I think the main reason I win is because I'm better at identifying potential danger. That is actually something I can't help. I can ignore danger, but I can't not see it. Also once you see threats, they are actually quite hard to ignore, you instinctively move away, even a child would do that. The problem with the others is they don't recognise threats which seem obvious to me, and they end up making really bad judgement calls, suiciding units in attacks that couldn't possibly pan out, and then failing to attack or retreating in places where they would have an advantage.

LunaHound wrote:You can play 2 vs 2, with you and your friend on the same team. That'll even the playing field and everyone is happy!

n0t_u wrote:Or even go against them all as a team with you as your own team. Could also talk to them about it and see if you can work it out. Careful with the phrasing though so you don't make them feel bad.

Then there's always just sitting out from a few games and helping them.

-Loki- wrote:

Basically, make lists with cool stuff, not super optimised, when playing against friends, if that's what they're doing.

I agree with the above.

Also... Do you and your friends play different missions? Maybe you need new scenarios or other variants of the game you're playing.

Like how in 40k you have those scenarios in the rulebook... and there's stuff like Planet Strike, Apocalypse, and Cities of Death, as well as that other book that has other missions.

I have a good friend who is just brilliant at games. Super analytical mind and not too shabby at rolling dice well, too. In other words, I tend to be his punchingball most of the time. How did we work out that situation? On the one hand I tried to indeed up my game but there are natural limits there. The other big help was to variate the field of opponents. We simply play less regularly and both try to get games in with others that are more our level of capability (and we do other things instead like watching animes). So each game I play with him is still likely to be a loss but it doesn´t matter anymore as it is just one game amongst many. And it is fun to me to have such a challenge from time to time. He also toned down his powerlevel a bit. He still doesn´t throw the game but is more relaxed in his approach to it then before.

We are lucky that we have many gamers in our area so that the above approach is possible. In case that you don´t have that possibility, the approaches mentioned before seem sensible.To have a chat with your guys about this topic where you express your impressions and especially fear would be a good thing, as this allows them to voice their potential frustration, too. In this situation, you could also ask what they think would be a good approach to take.

In the worst case, you indeed need to either find a new joint occupation or stop playing. Sometimes it just doesn´t work out for everybody. If they are good enough friends, you´ll find other ways to spend time together. If just Warhammer holds you together as a group (which turned out was the case with a supposedly good friend of mine in school), loosing them is less of a problem as there are other gamers and potential friends.

A: Help your friends improve, give advice, help them with strategy, etc.

B: Make fun lists. Outside of a tournement / practicing for said tournamet(s), it's generally better to play something more interesting.

I have my 'default' list, that's a coven, it has talos, grotesques, loads of wracks, etc. It's reasonably optimised, but it does use suboptimal units.

Which is proven nicely when I switch to my 'you have how many fast skimmers?' lists for tournies.

Change the parameters of play:

Play narrative games.

Play campaign games (with you as the neutral GM who plays an opposing force)

Change up games.

Do a board/card game night

Smacks wrote:I don't think I'm especially competitive. I think the main reason I win is because I'm better at identifying potential danger. That is actually something I can't help. I can ignore danger, but I can't not see it. Also once you see threats, they are actually quite hard to ignore, you instinctively move away, even a child would do that. The problem with the others is they don't recognise threats which seem obvious to me, and they end up making really bad judgement calls, suiciding units in attacks that couldn't possibly pan out, and then failing to attack or retreating in places where they would have an advantage.

If you're this good at identfying potential danger, then you wouldn't have needed to have started this thread...

Look at your list. Is it super-over-powered with ridiculous units? Or did you try a fun, fluff list? Or even one with a unit you've never tried before? Trust us, it ain't your friends.

Pacific wrote:Out of interest what game are you playing?

If it is something like 40k you can quite easily make a less optimal army in most cases, try some odd weapon load outs and things like that. I have to be honest, I find your post a little odd considering the random nature of the game - I've had games where I have totally outmanoeuvred my opponent, and with a better army match up, yet lost because of the cruelty of the dice gods, and had exactly the opposite thing happened where I have fluked a win against a much better set-up and organised player, who has used better tactics. So, with the caveat that you are playing a GW core game (40k in particular) I find your circumstances quite odd.

Otherwise its like any other game, sport you care to mention, and if you are that much better than your opponents then the onus on you is to not to play so 'well'. I regularly play games of tennis in a social setting and against people who are not at my level. Do I smash the ball past them point after point? No, I just hit it a bit softer.

Yeah we play lots of games like Chess and Risk too, and advance wars, thurn and taxis, some fantasy flight games, poker. But for example I'm rated around 1700 in chess now, where as the others would probably be about 1100. So it's difficult to play that together now.

If you're this good at identfying potential danger, then you wouldn't have needed to have started this thread...

Yeah I guess I was just really bummed out about what happened yesterday. I've seen a lot people make threads on dakka asking advice about how to get kids/friends/partners interested in gaming. I'm sure the way to do that is not by mercilessly beating them to a pulp every game. So I thought someone might be able to offer some advice on how to encourage people who aren't quite as good as yourself to improve without demoralizing them.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Smacks wrote:I don't think I'm especially competitive. I think the main reason I win is because I'm better at identifying potential danger. That is actually something I can't help. I can ignore danger, but I can't not see it. Also once you see threats, they are actually quite hard to ignore, you instinctively move away, even a child would do that. The problem with the others is they don't recognise threats which seem obvious to me, and they end up making really bad judgement calls, suiciding units in attacks that couldn't possibly pan out, and then failing to attack or retreating in places where they would have an advantage.

If you're this good at identfying potential danger, then you wouldn't have needed to have started this thread...
.

haha brilliant..

A number of people have written some pretty measured and useful responses. But... and I think this is the clincher... it was never about that was it.. ?

I did think about spending some time searching for a 'Why am I so beautiful and amazing? It's not my fault!" motivational poster, with a picture of Julie Andrews as Mary Poppins flaring her nostrils at the camera, but then I decided I couldn't be bothered.

Also once you see threats, they are actually quite hard to ignore, you instinctively move away, even a child would do that.

We're not talking about an instinctive response here, like throwing yourself out of the way of a speeding car or a rampaging goat. You can choose, using the conscious components of your grey matter, where to pick up those models and where to move them. You can choose to take a less optimal army, or hell even handicap your pts value by 10%. You can choose to do a hundred and one other things to help facilitate your friends enjoyment of the game. But, you have obviously chosen not to, and instead make a thread which is essentially an attempt to big-up the size of your wargaming e-peen to people you don't even know, and who probably won't believe you anyway.

And with that in mind, I'm going to put my helmet and 80's sunglasses back on, jump on my power trike and head to the Squat Tavern to meet my other beer-drinking space-dwarf buddies...

Let them use blinds and dummy blinds.

Pacific wrote:You can choose to do a hundred and one other things to help facilitate your friends enjoyment of the game. But, you have obviously chosen not to, and instead make a thread which is essentially an attempt to big-up the size of your wargaming e-peen to people you don't even know, and who probably won't believe you anyway.

If you want to believe that. To be honest I'm not that interested in wargaming especially. I mainly collect miniatures for the painting and modelling aspect. You are probably all better than me.

And to say I "have obviously chosen not to facilitate my friends' enjoyment of games" seems unfair, since I just made a topic about how to do precisely that, after just yesterday noticing that they might be starting to lose enjoyment for some games.

Thanks for putting me in my place anyway.

What army lists and missions are you and your friends running?

If I am playing someone that I normally beat pretty easily. I'll mix up my list and include some less effective options or play a weighted scenario.

I'll second the 2 vs 2 games .. and let your partner drive.

40k... the game where the winner apologises to their opponent for beating them.

(1) man up.

(2) either get them to improve their game or play with other folks that are at your level.

here is the thing. you enjoyed it, so you tried to get better. you did. they didnt bother. its not your fault that they're playing badly, or not capable of beating you. thats on them. you shouldnt need to feel bad, or feel like you need to apologise for their failures.

What you can do maybe, is a commentary. say what you're doing, and why you're doing it. swap factions with them and repeat. explain the math, explain the tactics and explain the theory. if they refuse to take it on board, then they're just sore losers who are unwilling to evolve their thinking, or up their game. if thats the case, move on to another group with 40k and do other things with these lads.

Find some new friends?

I know I did when I got sick of being whipped by my "friends" at the time. I went and found another group who were more about the beer and mandollies than winning bit.

I've never been a "Serious" gamer. If I won a trophy because of luck, then so be it - it went into a box in the shed (I don't need more dust collectors in the house). It's always been more about the social compact part than the winning for me.

Those are fair questions actually..

1: What points level(s) are you playing?

2: What army(s) do you use?

3: What army(s) do they use?

4: What's your list, and to the best of your memory, what are theirs?

Smacks wrote:

Thanks for putting me in my place anyway.

After reading my post again that was kind of rude, so sorry about that !

My thoughts on this would be to try a few things.

1) 2 v 2 games like most other people have suggested.

2) Handicapped games where both armies had different points 500 v 1000 for example, like they had in 2nd edition of 40k

3) Random army lists, much like a swingers party everyone throws their list in a bowl and you pick them out at random. That way your kick ass never get beaten list might be in someone else bed.

4) Last but not least play with yourself, see how well you do then.

How about running 'fun' lists rather than playing to win? It can be a bit patronising... but hey... want to keep your friends?

There could be a bit of an ego at work here too... but I don't want to sully anyone.

Deadnight wrote:What you can do maybe, is a commentary. say what you're doing, and why you're doing it. swap factions with them and repeat. explain the math, explain the tactics and explain the theory.

That's a really good idea. Unfortunately I have found myself to be a less than inspiring teacher in the past. I have a habit of making things sound much more complicated than they really are. Or rather: Exactly as complicated as they really are, but much more complicated than people need/want to hear. But I guess I could work on that. I'll give it a try.

chromedog wrote:Find some new friends?

I already have other people who I can play with, but its not the same. I would hang out with these guys even if we weren't playing anything. It's cool that they also like playing strategy games. So I'd really like if we could keep that going.

Pacific wrote:After reading my post again that was kind of rude, so sorry about that !

That's okay. I usually enjoy reading your posts man. I didn't enjoy that one so much. But apology happily accepted. Now I can continue to enjoy your posts in future without any hard feelings. Sorry if I made myself sound like an asshat, version of Mary Poppins' et epeen!

Henners91 wrote:There could be a bit of an ego at work here too... but I don't want to sully anyone.

I really wouldn't be offended. I know there probably is some ego involved. It's difficult to let someone beat you when you know you could win. And it is difficult to know when to do it, so that it will encourage them to keep playing.

Give yourself a handicap. If it's a 1700 point game, take 1000 points. Or whatever you need to make it a nail biting game.

A friend of mine ran a league once where you lost 100 points off your army size every time you won and got 100 every time you lost. Ask your friends if they'd be up for something like that.

I'm struggling to get my head around this whole thing, is it that your friends are wholly casual and don't have a competitive streak, and you don't want to ruin the enjoyment for them?

If that's the case, I would advise being wary of condescending them in any way. It won't be fun for them to beat you if you aren't trying, so I think the best avenue would be to start cooking up some narrative games. There are even rules out there for stuff like their army versus your Baneblade. Just have fun with them.

I used to play quite lot with good friends who were really competitive, especially me and my oldest friend, who've always had that quiet ultra-competitive streak a lot of friends have. It makes everything more fun, if a little stressful at times, when there's a healthy one-upmanship going on. Perhaps you could try to incubate that spirit somehow?

Big fish, small pond. Go play with more competitive people or at tournaments with your "best at the game" attitude. You will be quickly humbled and find a new challenge at the same time.