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Hello, I was looking for some background on the Xenos races. I came across the BL book, Xenology. So, for anyone that has read this book, what is your opinion on it?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page#.UGkU4k1fBLc

That site should have everything you need to know about the different Xenos.

The book is a nice read with lots of information, some of it quite daring and not yet supported by other sources. Minor fluff errors included. Written mostly from the perspective of a mad inquisitor. Main part are dissection pics, explanation and the story around them.

So a recommendation, if you take the info in there with a grain of salt.

The Xenology book is definately worth a read.

It's a great read and the first step towards the "Newcron" fluff.

I really enjoyed it for how it was written and for the little story that connected the various entries.

Fluffwise, inconsistencies to GW's version of the setting makes me dismiss it as a source for background information, but that was to be expected (Black Library book after all) and I am generally biased towards preferring GW's world to some freelance writer's ideas. Matter of preferences and interpretation - although I suppose it still offers some cool inspiration, especially regarding the lesser known species of xenos not regularly "featured".

All in all, I'd recommend it, whilst simultaneously cautioning people not to take the information in there at face value.

One of the best BL books out there. People cry like babies because the Tau doesn't have "hooves" even though those are infact hooves.

They also cry that the Tau are created by the Eldar and are controlled by pheremones.

Basically it's Tau players that don't like the book. But who cares what Tau players think right?

 Lynata wrote:
not to take the information in there at face value.

Which was the whole point of the book.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It's a great read and the first step towards the "Newcron" fluff.

I really think the opposite, the surprise "twist" has references to things that are now impossible in fluff. It was part of oldcron fluff. Oldcron Lords were intelligent beings capable of speech when they wanted to be.

DeffDred wrote:One of the best BL books out there. People cry like babies because the Tau doesn't have "hooves" even though those are infact hooves.

These are very clearly not hooves. Unless you think humans and monkeys have "hooves", too.

Personally, I think it's more childish to continue propagating a false "canon" rather than pointing out all the inconsistencies and the obvious willingness of the various writers in undermining it. If we'd all realise this like sensible adults should, there would be no need for the "crying" - or for getting all defensive about this product and denouncing valid criticisms. As long as the majority of the community looks as if it's stuck in denial, I'll continue with my little crusade.

The book is a cool read and I will continue to recommend it, but it should be viewed for what it is. Actually, this goes for all Black Library books. People shouldn't turn to them for background fluff but for the stories they tell.

Portugal Jones wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
not to take the information in there at face value.

Which was the whole point of the book.

Not really. It was just another Black Library author making up stuff as he went. That was the whole point.
If the inconsistencies were intended (which would have admittedly made sense, considering it's an "in-character" investigation), they would have been limited to personal assessments, but not to things like the images.
"The camera doesn't lie".

 Lynata wrote:

DeffDred wrote:One of the best BL books out there. People cry like babies because the Tau doesn't have "hooves" even though those are infact hooves.

These are very clearly not hooves. Unless you think humans and monkeys have "hooves", too.

Please use some google-fu. Go to images and type in "Types of hooves". You'll be blown away as you see that there are more than just horse and deer hooves.

You may even recognize the Tau foot. It's a rhino's hoof.

BTW humans and other primates have 5 toes and such. We also have them in a specific placement. Non of which come anywhere close to the Tau hoof in Xenology.

DeffDred wrote:Please use some google-fu. Go to images and type in "Types of hooves". You'll be blown away as you see that there are more than just horse and deer hooves.
You may even recognize the Tau foot. It's a rhino's hoof.
BTW humans and other primates have 5 toes and such. We also have them in a specific placement. Non of which come anywhere close to the Tau hoof in Xenology.

The definition of the difference between hooves and feet does not hinge upon how many digits they have, it's whether they're covered by a nail on one side, or fully enclosed by a sheath.
The Tau in Xenology have nails just like a human. The Rhino, just like GW's official miniatures, does not.

 Lynata wrote:
The definition of the difference between hooves and feet does not hinge upon how many digits they have...

I'm not sure that applies to blue non-mammals that live on the other side of the galaxy.

 DeffDred wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
The definition of the difference between hooves and feet does not hinge upon how many digits they have...

I'm not sure that applies to blue non-mammals that live on the other side of the galaxy.

Why not? The Imperium is run by humans. Therefore everything encountered, whether in next door's garden, or across the galaxy, will be judged, categorised and catalogued using human frames of reference.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
The definition of the difference between hooves and feet does not hinge upon how many digits they have...

I'm not sure that applies to blue non-mammals that live on the other side of the galaxy.

Why not? The Imperium is run by humans. Therefore everything encountered, whether in next door's garden, or across the galaxy, will be judged, catergorised and catalogued using human frames of reference.

And the Imperium says Tau have hooves and Xenology shows the hooves. So those are hooves right?

It's all up to us to figure out how we as individuals want to imagine it.

There is nothing to say that Etherials are different than water caste members. Where are the membrane wings on the FW air caste?

Perhaps female Tau have different hooves then males? The is no barefoot model of a female Tau. Even the "barefoot" models we've seen could be protective foot gear.

It can't be proven eitherway. You could say they're barefoot, you could aslo say that they have highly advenced footwear. Xenology says they have unidentifiable fabric for clothing.

Considering stealth teams have "hooves" as well, despite being massive and most definatly a suit and not bein bare footed, I belive it is safe to assume FW "hooves" are in fact the Tau version of army boots rather then running around bare footed.

After all, considering these uniform are used for anything from space stations to volcanic wastelands and frozen tundras, I doubt they would walk bare footed all the time. its just not practical.

DeffDred wrote:I'm not sure that applies to blue non-mammals that live on the other side of the galaxy.

Our definitions as written down in dictionaries and lexica apply to anything we encounter, as they are meant to serve us, not them. We also wouldn't care about how Tau would define the colour "blue", for that matter.

DeffDred wrote:And the Imperium says Tau have hooves and Xenology shows the hooves. So those are hooves right?

Xenology shows toenails. These are hooves.

As for the gender-based evolutionary differences between males and females you seem to suggest ...
Occam's Razor. We already know that many times, Black Library writers simply tell a lot of conflicting stuff because (a) they didn't do their research or (b) they think their idea is better than what they read before. So perhaps we can simply acknowledge this obvious trend rather than coming up with the most far-fetched excuses for everything. Now, I do like to play the "let's see how we can explain this" game too, as it is generally a lot of fun and somewhat of a mental challenge, and GW often writes some weird stuff as well. But there's a line where it just gets silly. Some things in the fluff just cannot co-exist, and it is much cleaner to simply opt for one version or the other.

Obviously, it's a matter of interpretations. If in your version of 40k, Tau gender is determined by looking at their feet ... by all means, have fun with that.

BoomWolf wrote:Considering stealth teams have "hooves" as well, despite being massive and most definatly a suit and not bein bare footed, I belive it is safe to assume FW "hooves" are in fact the Tau version of army boots rather then running around bare footed.

The way they look like I'd interpret it as some sort of plating that encloses their normal hooves. The Ethereals' naked feet have much smaller/thinner hooves, which is why I'm suspecting armour for the thicker Stealth Team feet.

 DeffDred wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
The definition of the difference between hooves and feet does not hinge upon how many digits they have...

I'm not sure that applies to blue non-mammals that live on the other side of the galaxy.

Actually, it does. It's not a definition which says "must be from earth". Doesn't prevent a blue mammal from other side of galaxy from having something which qualifies for a different word and definition, though.

Anyone have a copy they would be willing to sell?

 Lynata wrote:

DeffDred wrote:One of the best BL books out there. People cry like babies because the Tau doesn't have "hooves" even though those are infact hooves.

These are very clearly not hooves. Unless you think humans and monkeys have "hooves", too.

.

Monkeys do not have them no, but by what you are calling hooves nor do camels. The image below is also not a "Hoof" by your very limited use of the term

Hunterindarkness wrote:Monkeys do not have them no, but by what you are calling hooves nor do camels.

"In some so-called "cloven-hoofed" animals such as camels, there are no hooves proper – the toe is softer, and the hoof itself is reduced to little more than a nail."
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoof

I suppose that makes a camel's toe some sort of "in-between", with the important difference being that the nail, due to the foot's shape, still grows downwards rather than horizontally as is the case with humans, monkeys, or the Xenology Tau. *shrugs*
Either way: compare the images I posted from that book and the Etheral miniature. The difference is pretty obvious and significant. One has toenails and three front digits with none at the rear, the other has a proper hoof and two front digits with one at the back.

I'm not sure why this can evoke such a massive debate? It's rather common for licensed publications to contradict GW fluff. Acknowledge the differences, pick the interpretation you prefer, and move on.

Hunterindarkness wrote:The image below is also not a "Hoof" by your very limited use of the term

And why would that be, considering we don't even see the actual foot but rather just a boot above it?
Also, the image you linked is titled "FWart.jpg", where I assume FW stands for Forgeworld as its origin rather than GW? Well, at least it agrees on Tau having two digits on the front.

Lastly, it's not my definition. I'd be interested to hear yours now, though. Apparently it is different.

 Lynata wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:Monkeys do not have them no, but by what you are calling hooves nor do camels.

"In some so-called "cloven-hoofed" animals such as camels, there are no hooves proper – the toe is softer, and the hoof itself is reduced to little more than a nail."
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoof.

Still a hoof. Just repace Camel with Tau in that sentence. Xenology shows a Tau with hooves. You may not like the fact that they aren't depicted as horsehooves but they are still hooves.

DeffDred wrote:Still a hoof. Just repace Camel with Tau in that sentence. Xenology shows a Tau with hooves. You may not like the fact that they aren't depicted as horsehooves but they are still hooves.

Please don't just regard the rest of my post - right now you are ignoring the obvious visual discrepancies in favour of a redundant debate focusing on definitions. It doesn't even matter what we wish to call it, the feet simply look different.
So, if it'd make you happier, we can focus on calling it that and avoid the "hoof question" entirely, given that the term merely serves as a descriptor we do not need, as we've got the pictures to prove it.

That said, if you seriously wish to claim that you do not recognise the significant differences between a camel's foot and the Xenology Tau's, then I guess by your definition, humans have hooves as well.

Humans aren't quadrupeds. Almost all animals have feet. There are many kinds of feet. Some have 4 toes. Some have 5. Some have hooves. Some have flippers.

Hooves, like the animals they are attached to, vary widely in shape size color ect.

Tau are known to have hooves. Xenology shows a picture of these hooves. Those are hooves on a Tau.

The Tau are a genetically engineered race. They stem from 4 major castes and one new one.

It is understood that each caste has traits specific to them. Earth caste are short of stature. Air caste have membrane wings (not depicted on any model).

As a race that clearly if full of mutation (the non-warp kind) there is absolutely nothing to say that the Xenology Tau isn't a unique case.

Again, as I brought up earlier, maybe female Tau have a different kind of hoof. The only "barefoot" Tau models are male.

Looking at it another way, the Xenology book was one of the first publications that lead to the Newcron fiction.

Perhaps Newtau in the future will have the feet discribed in the book. Maybe GW (Mat Ward specifically) will do as they've done before and dig into their past for inspiration.

The Tau are new and only appeared in the tail end of 3rd ed. No much to refer too. So Xenology will be one of the only pillars of reference besides Fire Warrior and 2 previous codexs.

That's all just mindless speculation but it doesn't change the fact that models in 40k rarely make sense. Hands and heads are too large. Anatomy is way off.

Personally, I like the idea of Tau "feet" over horse hooves. It makes far more sense on an evolutionary standpoint.

Which makes me wonder... do Tau have any natural predators on T'au? Why did they have hooves anyway? Why only 2 teeth? Why a vertical rib cage? Why locked ankles?

In the end were talking about a fictional alien here.

Whether humans are quadrupeds or not has nothing to do with the subject. The shape of a being's foot is not dominated by this. See: paws.

Again I ask: What is your definition of a foot? The amount of digits is the one and only difference between the Xenology Tau and a human being. Is that what you are basing your opinion on? Really?
The "backdoor solution" of Tau feet possibly depending on gender already hints at you not being convinced by your own thesis, so why would you keep argueing? Various sources presenting different interpretations of things is everyday business in 40k, and I think you are well aware of this fact. Given this irrefutable truth, it seems obvious (to me), that the closest and most logical explanation would be that this is the case here as well. Not every single piece of conflict of fluff can, nor indeed should be resolved by "forcing" compatibility at any cost.

I still have an email in my inbox from my editor, asking “Why didn’t you reference X in your novel?”
I also have my reply. It says, quite simply, “Because X sucks, and so does the guy who wrote it.”
That’s show business for you.
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

But I guess we just have different threshholds where we draw the line between where it's possible to reconciliate, and where it's quite simply better to pick one option and ignore the other. Not really worth argueing about mere opinions and matters of taste, so ... peace?

Deffdred wrote:Perhaps Newtau in the future will have the feet discribed in the book. Maybe GW (Mat Ward specifically) will do as they've done before and dig into their past for inspiration.
The Tau are new and only appeared in the tail end of 3rd ed. No much to refer too. So Xenology will be one of the only pillars of reference besides Fire Warrior and 2 previous codexs.

GW rarely adopts fluff they did not write themselves - for good reason. Occasionally they do include things they like in their version of the setting, but looking at how many things were (fortunately) quite simply ignored, I wouldn't expect it to be different for some random artist's interpretation of Tau feet. There's really no good reason whatsoever, given that there's nothing "wrong" with the current design.

If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books. And beside, there simply isn’t enough room in those gaming books to include everything from the hundreds of novels – good, bad or indifferent as we each see them – so the decision must ultimately rest with the taste of individual readers and gamers.
-- Gav Thorpe

So, of course you could always mold them into a different shape if you really prefer them to have kangaroo feet ... sorry, "hooves".

GW "canon" is a joke, so what they approve or do not is also kind of a joke. The fact remains that image you posted would indeed fall within the range of what is classified as a hoof. The lay out is very deer like in many aspects, sadly we do not get to see the back half. And the front image is very much like that of an elephant hoof or that of a camel, if shaped more along the lines of a deer.

Seriously? "Deerlike"? Add two digits and you have a human foot.

Sheesh, I never would've thought we'd "need" a zoologist on dakka some day. I've already mentioned the considerable difference between the shape, but here it's explained in better words by people with more knowledge on the matter: http://www.ultimateungulate.com/whatisanungulate.html
"Unlike claws and nails, hooves are the principal point of contact between the legs and the ground - as a result, ungulates are said to have unguligrade limbs."
Now, someone care to point out where exactly the Xenology Tau's nails have even remote contact with the ground?

I'd like some enlightenment on which sources you are basing your "fact" on now. What is a fact is that it looks nothing alike what GW has come up with. Again, look at the images above.

As far as "canon" is concerned, however, you are spot on. It doesn't exist, hence what happened in Xenology in case of the Tau feet has happened before, and it will happen again.

Xenology was a fun book. I especially liked the Umbra.


It's also 100% anti-canon, and does not count for anything. A shame in some respects, because there were some cool concepts in there, but yeah, it's a big 'nope!' as far as 40k fluff is concerned.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Xenology was a fun book. I especially liked the Umbra.


It's also 100% anti-canon, and does not count for anything. A shame in some respects, because there were some cool concepts in there, but yeah, it's a big 'nope!' as far as 40k fluff is concerned.

What's the Umbra?

None of the fluff matches with GW 40K fluff? How far off point is it?

The Umbra is this floating sphere that has swirling patterns on it. They are seemingly docile and potentially sentient. They tend to attack by creating monsters out of shadows - claws, teeth and all sorts of horrific things - and they can tear stuff to pieces very easily.They like to hang around star-ship hulls. And they can mess with your head using psychics. Of all the things in the book they were the one thing I liked the most.