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I mean honsetly people. I saw it when the sixth edition BRB came out and now again with the codex. Everyone is complaining and whining about how they ruined it because they changed this rule or they took that out or added this in. People the reason new rules and codexes are released is for a change. If everything was the same all the time GW wouldnt make anymore money after awhile and frankly the game would get stale and most likely die out IMO. But really why not just accept the change and re-think the way you play the game. Im sure it will be the same thing for the next codex that comes out too. People are always screaming that either thier army is ruined by the new rules, or someone elses army is broken because of the new rules. Adapt and overcome, its not that hard. I know going back to the drawing board after spending time play testing and coming up with a working list sucks, But its all part of the hobby. Maybe im just too relaxed and dont take it as seriously as other people. My only army I play is chaos and i looked forward to the new dex, and when it came out I got it, read it through a couple times, threw my old army list away and LOOKED FOWARD to making a new one. It just seems to me people only look at the negatives. I see more "Fix the new CSM codex" and " This or That unit is ruined now" and "The new CSM codex is garbage" threads than anything else. It seems like no one is saying "hey if you do this with that and combine it with this it comes out awesome". Like I said maybe im a positive person, or maybe I dont take it as seriously as some others. It just seems to me that there is more complaints than anything, Id much rather read something about the new rules or new dex that gives me a new idea on how to run my army, or at least something of a productive nature.

I agree with the title but for a different reason. I'm just sick of 50% of the first page threads being about it (good or bad). I mean there is still like 3 "csm codex preview" threads up and it's been out for almost 2 weeks!

 Zande4 wrote:
I agree with the title but for a different reason. I'm just sick of 50% of the first page threads being about it (good or bad). I mean there is still like 3 "csm codex preview" threads up and it's been out for almost 2 weeks!

Yeah I can understand where your coming from with that too. I just hate hearing all the complaining, I also hate the "NEW!!!" players, not meaning players who just started playing warhammer but players who have to have the newest models, armies, ect. I cant tell you how many guys ive seen with fully painted Nid's armies or Tau or Eldar armies, start hawking off thier stuff so they can buy the new chaos... which isnt anything special. Im not here saying OH ITS SO HORRIBLE or vice versa oh its so great but im sure after all the other codexes are updated it will just be average.

 Guilldog wrote:
But really why not just accept the change .:

I'm so sorry but I have to say it,










JUST AS PLANNED!

In all honesty, it's to be accepted. The 'bandwagon' players are always going to be around, you can't really do anything about them; the hubbub won't die down completely until the next release.

I am a little tired of people assuming I'm a bandwagon player just because I have a Grey Knights army, though. I don't use Crowe, Draigo, or any of Ward's silly special characters, I don't use Purifiers, and half my models are metal Grey Knights leftover from the army I used in the 4th edition era; I've stuck with the army through hell and high water, so people griping at me about 'new Grey Knight players' is obnoxious.

I must be the odd man out

The really good:

Chaos Lords = awesome
Cultists = yeah!
Abby = so much better
Rank and file marines = Awesome
Bikes? = almost too good
Sorcerers = fun
Fiends = I really like these rules now
Oblits = game breakers
Havocs = relevant again

The almost good:

Dark Apostle = just need a little bit more control on the boons
Chosen = great, just lacking good way to get to the front
DP = really are pretty good folks, cost is good when being viewed in a vacuum
Terminators = so close, yet need something other than a LR to get into battle
Mutilator = could become a solid unit (come here paladins!), but reserving judgement for now
Raptors = great against weaker forces, only okay vs MEQ
Heldrake = great rules (really), horrible model
Defiler = really is good at its costs, back off the rest of you and see it for what it is now in 6th
Predator = will still earn its points back, just you watch

All and all, that many good or okay units make for a solid, balanced codex. Maybe less whining and more playing battles would help the naysayers.

Adapt and overcome, its not that hard. I know going back to the drawing board after spending time play testing and coming up with a working list sucks, But its all part of the hobby.

there is no way for chaos to "adapt" to necron or IG , the dex are just better and that is assuming someone is not stupid and doesnt play something else the black legion . how is a WE player suppose to adapt this edition ? assault sucks , does nothing to flyers , if they build a mauler rush it has auto lose against scyth wing . 1ksosn ? lol . EC ? no plasma and all the problems it brings , problems with dealing with non blob IG etc , but hey are they dominating swarm tyranids or what . there is nothing bad in GW wanting bigger sales . But do they not understand that people still want to play legions and forcing them to play black legion is as if all loyalist marines had to play ultramarines ?



also changes are ok , new options are awesome . nerfing everything that people bought in to unplayability , while making the new options not so cool, because of necron , games still caping points before 2k , does make people pissed. I mean the new 2 HQ suck . the fiends are ok , in a void , but when one thinks about IG and necron one has to take havocks . they have a single flyer , can max take 3 . bs3 str 8 does not down other flyer builds fast enough even , if the drakes come in second . that of course doesnt mean that everything in that dex is crap . of course not , but it builds a very specific list with little options and you end up playing black legion .
While on the other hand SW who have the same type of game play have a lot more options , better psyker protection . they dont have flakk or flyers , unless they ally them in , free ultra grit etc etc .

^ where in the CSM codex does it say "You must paint your models in Black Legion colours or be automatically disqualified and have your army burned"

Makumba wrote:

there is no way for chaos to "adapt" to necron or IG , the dex are just better and that is assuming someone is not stupid and doesnt play something else the black legion . how is a WE player suppose to adapt this edition ? assault sucks , does nothing to flyers , if they build a mauler rush it has auto lose against scyth wing . 1ksosn ? lol . EC ? no plasma and all the problems it brings , problems with dealing with non blob IG etc , but hey are they dominating swarm tyranids or what . there is nothing bad in GW wanting bigger sales . But do they not understand that people still want to play legions and forcing them to play black legion is as if all loyalist marines had to play ultramarines ?



also changes are ok , new options are awesome . nerfing everything that people bought in to unplayability , while making the new options not so cool, because of necron , games still caping points before 2k , does make people pissed. I mean the new 2 HQ suck . the fiends are ok , in a void , but when one thinks about IG and necron one has to take havocks . they have a single flyer , can max take 3 . bs3 str 8 does not down other flyer builds fast enough even , if the drakes come in second . that of course doesnt mean that everything in that dex is crap . of course not , but it builds a very specific list with little options and you end up playing black legion .
While on the other hand SW who have the same type of game play have a lot more options , better psyker protection . they dont have flakk or flyers , unless they ally them in , free ultra grit etc etc .

Can't you see that you should feel happy to be stomped by the broken armies now that yours is the most balance book Ward-armies can munch on? Washington Generals rule!

It's always "[new codex] is too strong/OP" or "[new codex] is too weak" everywhere for a bit after they come out...

The trick is to try to adapt with the changes and to wait out those complain threads a little. They'll still be there, but taper off a bit.

 n0t_u wrote:
It's always "[new codex] is too strong/OP" or "[new codex] is too weak" everywhere for a bit after they come out...

The trick is to try to adapt with the changes and to wait out those complain threads a little. They'll still be there, but taper off a bit.

I remember people getting their panties in a wad when the Blood Angels codex came out. I still don't quite understand what made people think they were so horribly broken, I think I've lost a grand total of two games against them since the 5e codex hit...

On the topic, yeah, it happens at every single release, not even just codices. Even with a codex like CSM, which is in my opinion a beautifully balanced book (surprising considering the last few books that GW produced), people will complain.

In short:

 Jaon wrote:
^ where in the CSM codex does it say "You must paint your models in Black Legion colours or be automatically disqualified and have your army burned"

You've forgotten that according to the WAAC crowd, a World Eaters army is just 100% Berserker squads, Emp's Children are solely made up of Noise Marines, only Plaguemarines can be in a Deathguard army and to play Thousand Sons you must take nothing but Rubric Marines.
And let's not forget that, Iron Warriors can only have Havocs & artillery, Night Lords must be Raptors only, Word Bearers should simply be Cultists + Daemons and Alpha Legion have to be 100% infiltrating units!

Because of corse, the Legions only showed their super-secret-handshake to just 1 or 2 types of units, and everyone else had to go and join the Black Legion because they're not cool anymore!

Experiment 626 wrote:
... and to play Thousand Sons you must take nothing but Rubric Marines...

Yes. Because their entire legion (what was left of it) became Rubriks, not counting the Sorcerers who survived Ahrimans gamble. They lost almost all of their armored support at prospero, not to mention the attack on fenris. The new dreadnoughts/helbrutes? Yes, empty shells of Armour tend to go crazy from time to time.

If you want a pure, fluffy 1ksons you have to make certain cutbacks in the codex. Some things is just don't mix.

And I will stab you with bayonet-rifle squat if you say "allies" or "count as".

Terminators: Ok (Same ++ save, with mark)
Vehicles: Few, very few
Cultists: Ok (some of the spire guard might have survived and recruits again)
Demon engines: I guess, Tzeench and all.
Regular CSM: No
Other legion units: No
Chaos lord: Yes? The Überpowerful non sorcerer rubrikmarine! (or not)
Possessed: No (Remember the Rubric?)

... You can probably see where I'm going with this...

So you can't wait for people to stop talking about CSM and you start a thread about CSM?

Good job!

I am just glad they all stop whining about the BRB.

 Guilldog wrote:
I saw it when the sixth edition BRB came out and now again with the codex. Everyone is complaining and whining about how they ruined it because they changed this rule or they took that out or added this in.

This is normal, complaining is a part of every new release.

 Lobukia wrote:
I must be the odd man out

The really good:

Oblits = game breakers

I'm really curious why you think this. They got one weapon back that they had previously, and got 5pts cheaper, but lost fearless and got kicked down to Ld8 and got stuck with a silly rule they also got rid of 10 years ago because it was stupid.

 Guilldog wrote:
I mean honsetly people. I saw it when the sixth edition BRB came out and now again with the codex. Everyone is complaining and whining about how they ruined it because they changed this rule or they took that out or added this in. People the reason new rules and codexes are released is for a change. If everything was the same all the time GW wouldnt make anymore money after awhile and frankly the game would get stale and most likely die out IMO. But really why not just accept the change and re-think the way you play the game. Im sure it will be the same thing for the next codex that comes out too. People are always screaming that either thier army is ruined by the new rules, or someone elses army is broken because of the new rules. Adapt and overcome, its not that hard. I know going back to the drawing board after spending time play testing and coming up with a working list sucks, But its all part of the hobby. Maybe im just too relaxed and dont take it as seriously as other people. My only army I play is chaos and i looked forward to the new dex, and when it came out I got it, read it through a couple times, threw my old army list away and LOOKED FOWARD to making a new one. It just seems to me people only look at the negatives. I see more "Fix the new CSM codex" and " This or That unit is ruined now" and "The new CSM codex is garbage" threads than anything else. It seems like no one is saying "hey if you do this with that and combine it with this it comes out awesome". Like I said maybe im a positive person, or maybe I dont take it as seriously as some others. It just seems to me that there is more complaints than anything, Id much rather read something about the new rules or new dex that gives me a new idea on how to run my army, or at least something of a productive nature.

Welcome to Dakka...that is the nature of the beast. People will rant for a while until the next new thing comes out and then they will rant about that either how the list makes their current army useless, or how it will somehow be comepletely unstoppable by their current army; how the new minis suck; how the old minis suck and weren't redesigned....and so it goes. Generally those with complaints are the voices you will hear the most. Take a look at the poll thread on the chaos dex, those who like the dex far out number those who don't, but we are inundated with complaint posts, but not a torrent of support posts. This is how the internet works...

I have the same attitude as you and the new dex. As a player how prefers theme builds over WAAC builds, the minor rules and points changes don't bother me at all. The only two areas that might pose and issue for me are: I have one large unit of Chosen in my Khorne army that haven't been able to verify is still completely valid with the changes to the options for the unit or not, and a unit of Nurgle terminators that will require arms to be swapped around due to those changes. Otherwise my units will all continue on and I will happily add some new minis to the mix. Life is too short to let something as silly as a change to my codex ruin my day. There is enough stress out there without dragging the drama into my gaming hobby as well. Some people will claim such a perspective is a strawman and how putting something like this in perspective is bogus, but that is how I see it. We can only control our own happiness and no one else's and you can either spend your energy being angry over something as pointless as a wargaming rulebook, or you can let it go and get on with playing and enjoying the game.

Skriker

Please use paragraphs if you want people to read your posts...

 Testify wrote:
Please use paragraphs if you want people to read your posts...

This. A thousand times this!

Iranna.

Makumba wrote:
there is no way for chaos to "adapt" to necron or IG , the dex are just better and that is assuming someone is not stupid and doesnt play something else the black legion . how is a WE player suppose to adapt this edition ? assault sucks , does nothing to flyers , if they build a mauler rush it has auto lose against scyth wing . 1ksosn ? lol . EC ? no plasma and all the problems it brings , problems with dealing with non blob IG etc , but hey are they dominating swarm tyranids or what . there is nothing bad in GW wanting bigger sales . But do they not understand that people still want to play legions and forcing them to play black legion is as if all loyalist marines had to play ultramarines ?

also changes are ok , new options are awesome . nerfing everything that people bought in to unplayability , while making the new options not so cool, because of necron , games still caping points before 2k , does make people pissed. I mean the new 2 HQ suck . the fiends are ok , in a void , but when one thinks about IG and necron one has to take havocks . they have a single flyer , can max take 3 . bs3 str 8 does not down other flyer builds fast enough even , if the drakes come in second . that of course doesnt mean that everything in that dex is crap . of course not , but it builds a very specific list with little options and you end up playing black legion .
While on the other hand SW who have the same type of game play have a lot more options , better psyker protection . they dont have flakk or flyers , unless they ally them in , free ultra grit etc etc .

So why keep harping on it then, mate? Get rid of your army and move on. You've obviously decided the codex is useless without even bothering to play any games with it. So go with your auto-lose mentality and just dump it. Harping on it isn't going to change anything. The only thing that might change something is if you actually get out and play some real games instead of talking yourself out of it without even bothering to try. Units are not unplayable, they just play differently now. Also calling a book lame because it needs to take AA assets to stop aircraft is just ludicrous. A tactically deficient force will be tactically deficient no matter what codex it is made from. You can't build an IG army only full of infantry platoons and conscripts with no heavy weapons or meltas and then whine that the book is useless because the army would be screwed going up against aircraft or armor. Such tactical limitations are not the fault of the codex, but the fault of the player who saw fit to build an army with big tactical holes in its capabilities.

I play mono-god lists all the time and not one of them is stupidly tactically limited that it only includes cult troops from the god of my choice. My Khorne army actually only has a single unti of berserkers in it because an all berserker army is stupid and is foolishly self limiting. If your concept of "legion" is all cult troops, then perhaps you need to think outside of your little box a bit and realize that such is not the case. Khorne likes skulls for his skull throne and they can just as easily be provided by masses of fire from an autocannon as they can at the tip of a chainsword. The World Eaters had the same tactical support of devastators, armored and support vehicles as the other marine legions did.

It is also funny that you applaud space wolves, but they can't even get flakk or flyers on their own, so that would make their codex useless in your world since they would be crushed by a necron scythe force. How about a bit of consistency in your vision? CSMs have ALL of the options they need to get the job done, but the book is bad because you actually have to *use* them?

Forcemajeure wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
... and to play Thousand Sons you must take nothing but Rubric Marines...

Yes. Because their entire legion (what was left of it) became Rubriks, not counting the Sorcerers who survived Ahrimans gamble. They lost almost all of their armored support at prospero, not to mention the attack on fenris. The new dreadnoughts/helbrutes? Yes, empty shells of Armour tend to go crazy from time to time.

If you want a pure, fluffy 1ksons you have to make certain cutbacks in the codex. Some things is just don't mix.

And I will stab you with bayonet-rifle squat if you say "allies" or "count as".

Terminators: Ok (Same ++ save, with mark)
Vehicles: Few, very few
Cultists: Ok (some of the spire guard might have survived and recruits again)
Demon engines: I guess, Tzeench and all.
Regular CSM: No
Other legion units: No
Chaos lord: Yes? The Überpowerful non sorcerer rubrikmarine! (or not)
Possessed: No (Remember the Rubric?)

... You can probably see where I'm going with this...

And yet, waaaaaay back in the highly vaunted, (yet horribly broken), 3.5 codex that everyone seems to think was some godly book that GW must bring back, a Thousand Sons force could contain;
- Lords/Sorcerers.
- Possessed, who gained the Psyker rule. Now? So sure, maybe now they're not strictly psykers, but their powers can be what helps them manifest their specific mutations.
- Chosen, who again gained the Psyker rule. Now? What's stopping you from modeling those 'plasma guns' as Aspiring/Acolyte Sorcerers with just minor powers? (and you knw what, this explanation only works for an entire ing army, aka, Daemons!!!)
- Rubric Marines
- MoT Termies
- Any vehicle option. Just because they have 'few' doesn't mean they suddenly become a 0-1 option. It's still perfectly "fluffy" for a 1ksons force to include a pair of rhinos, a vindicator and a hellbrute/dreadnought or two. Or maybe add in a Predator in place of say the Vindicator?

And with the new units, you could even add in Warptalons as a secondary type of 'Possessed' with different daemonic/psychic abilities for example.
And let's not forget that the Thousand Sons aren't the only Tzeentchian Chaos Marines...


If you honestly think that you can only include units X/Y/Z in a cult army, the problem is not the codex...

Big difference between "whining" and legitimate complaints. Every GW release, from Rogue Trader to 6th Ed CSM, has had flaws. Just like there are flaws in just about everything. People have a right to speak out against it, and a lot of stuff around here dismissed as "mindless whining" is really legitimate criticism.

 Guilldog wrote:
I mean honsetly people. I saw it when the sixth edition BRB came out and now again with the codex. Everyone is complaining and whining about how they ruined it because they changed this rule or they took that out or added this in. People the reason new rules and codexes are released is for a change. If everything was the same all the time GW wouldnt make anymore money after awhile and frankly the game would get stale and most likely die out IMO. But really why not just accept the change and re-think the way you play the game. Im sure it will be the same thing for the next codex that comes out too. People are always screaming that either thier army is ruined by the new rules, or someone elses army is broken because of the new rules. Adapt and overcome, its not that hard. I know going back to the drawing board after spending time play testing and coming up with a working list sucks, But its all part of the hobby. Maybe im just too relaxed and dont take it as seriously as other people. My only army I play is chaos and i looked forward to the new dex, and when it came out I got it, read it through a couple times, threw my old army list away and LOOKED FOWARD to making a new one. It just seems to me people only look at the negatives. I see more "Fix the new CSM codex" and " This or That unit is ruined now" and "The new CSM codex is garbage" threads than anything else. It seems like no one is saying "hey if you do this with that and combine it with this it comes out awesome". Like I said maybe im a positive person, or maybe I dont take it as seriously as some others. It just seems to me that there is more complaints than anything, Id much rather read something about the new rules or new dex that gives me a new idea on how to run my army, or at least something of a productive nature.

Short answer, because they do it bad and wrong. Things dont need to be stale, they can go the way of league of legends. Even with piece meal changes.

Forcemajeure wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
... and to play Thousand Sons you must take nothing but Rubric Marines...

Yes. Because their entire legion (what was left of it) became Rubriks, not counting the Sorcerers who survived Ahrimans gamble. They lost almost all of their armored support at prospero, not to mention the attack on fenris. The new dreadnoughts/helbrutes? Yes, empty shells of Armour tend to go crazy from time to time.

If you want a pure, fluffy 1ksons you have to make certain cutbacks in the codex. Some things is just don't mix.

And I will stab you with bayonet-rifle squat if you say "allies" or "count as".

Terminators: Ok (Same ++ save, with mark)
Vehicles: Few, very few
Cultists: Ok (some of the spire guard might have survived and recruits again)
Demon engines: I guess, Tzeench and all.
Regular CSM: No
Other legion units: No
Chaos lord: Yes? The Überpowerful non sorcerer rubrikmarine! (or not)
Possessed: No (Remember the Rubric?)

... You can probably see where I'm going with this...

You do know that post heresy legions kept growing? The 1k sons have added thousands of marines to their ranks, some formidable sorcerers, and even drawn in renegades and the like. It's not like their frozen 100 years after Prospero burned. They've advanced and grown (and taken loses too).

xxvaderxx wrote:
Short answer, because they do it bad and wrong. Things dont need to be stale, they can go the way of league of legends. Even with piece meal changes.

They're still running a miniatures company, not an online game. They still need to give people incentives to make purchases, not just play the game. While waves of miniatures give them regular sales, new editions and codex releases give them huge sales boosts.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Forcemajeure wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
... and to play Thousand Sons you must take nothing but Rubric Marines...

Yes. Because their entire legion (what was left of it) became Rubriks, not counting the Sorcerers who survived Ahrimans gamble. They lost almost all of their armored support at prospero, not to mention the attack on fenris. The new dreadnoughts/helbrutes? Yes, empty shells of Armour tend to go crazy from time to time.

If you want a pure, fluffy 1ksons you have to make certain cutbacks in the codex. Some things is just don't mix.

And I will stab you with bayonet-rifle squat if you say "allies" or "count as".

Terminators: Ok (Same ++ save, with mark)
Vehicles: Few, very few
Cultists: Ok (some of the spire guard might have survived and recruits again)
Demon engines: I guess, Tzeench and all.
Regular CSM: No
Other legion units: No
Chaos lord: Yes? The Überpowerful non sorcerer rubrikmarine! (or not)
Possessed: No (Remember the Rubric?)

... You can probably see where I'm going with this...

And yet, waaaaaay back in the highly vaunted, (yet horribly broken), 3.5 codex that everyone seems to think was some godly book that GW must bring back, a Thousand Sons force could contain;
- Lords/Sorcerers.
- Possessed, who gained the Psyker rule. Now? So sure, maybe now they're not strictly psykers, but their powers can be what helps them manifest their specific mutations.
- Chosen, who again gained the Psyker rule. Now? What's stopping you from modeling those 'plasma guns' as Aspiring/Acolyte Sorcerers with just minor powers? (and you knw what, this explanation only works for an entire ing army, aka, Daemons!!!)
- Rubric Marines
- MoT Termies
- Any vehicle option. Just because they have 'few' doesn't mean they suddenly become a 0-1 option. It's still perfectly "fluffy" for a 1ksons force to include a pair of rhinos, a vindicator and a hellbrute/dreadnought or two. Or maybe add in a Predator in place of say the Vindicator?

And with the new units, you could even add in Warptalons as a secondary type of 'Possessed' with different daemonic/psychic abilities for example.
And let's not forget that the Thousand Sons aren't the only Tzeentchian Chaos Marines...


If you honestly think that you can only include units X/Y/Z in a cult army, the problem is not the codex...

Those terminators were not just MoT Terminators, they were Rubric Terminators, with two wounds.

There was also far more wargear, Daemonic Weapons,daemonic gifts that could be purchased, rather than random rolled. Though since it's back in now in some manner I'll accept that at least.

I'd probably have been a bit more placated had I seen that the wargear had expanded out a bit better. Combat drugs for the lord, with a doomsiren, lash, and Aura of Acquiescence would've made my day. (And sonics on the dreads )

What we mostly just wanted was more wargear options that could allow us to fine tune our armies more specifically, marks for the dreads, potential to take better melee weapons on a khornate, AP3 bolters on a tzeentch dread, plague spewers and plague weapons..

Or heck, go with far more undivided, there was some smattering of new ones in there but they are far to specific, your telling me that after all this time and creativity you couldn't up with more for chaos? Hell just look at FFG, they have an entire book about it! Warp Cannons, Power scythes, Combat Drugs, Void Daemon weapons, vehicles that aren't just the basic C:SM ones. Chaos is potentially the most creative thing, and yet you barely expanded the options. There's also the surprising lack of tactical options

Will I be playing this book, yes I will, and will it be competitive, likely (I hope), but I'm just so massively disappointed at how one of the more creative races there is, and Kelly went with the basics....

I agree with the OP. My outlook on this is simple. Shut up and play. I am so sick of hearing people piss and moan about how they can't play this or that legion. You can now mark almost every single model in your entire army (I think except vehicles), and people still aren't happy. You can now apply special rules to every model, but that still doesn't seem to be enough.

Why do we need a World Eaters codex? It would look exactly like the normal Chaos Marine codex, except with options to take bolters instead of chainaxes. Why do we need a special snowflake codex to play Thousand Sons? All you have to do is take the mark of Tzeentch for everything and actually read the background material and use it to help build your army. Emperor's Children? At what point does Mark of Slaanesh automatically mean Noise Marine weapon? It doesn't. Deal with it. And for the unmarked Traitor Legions. This one is my favorite. They have never had special rules, not special units needed to play them. The same goes for the Death Guard and every other "real" Chaos army. Deal with it.

I recommend people actually learn about their armies and build them based on the background material. If you want to play Thousand Sons, build a Thousand Sons army with the rules provided. You'd be surprised what you can accomplish. Instead of pissing and moaning, channel this energy into making a great army.

For those on the other side, who are sick of the complaints and problems, please stay strong. We will come out ahead. But in the meantime, I suggest we do the same thing. Build valid, characterful, and strong Traitor Legion armies to show off the strength of our new codex. Only by proving that you don't need to be a special snowflake will people stop bringing this up.

ScooterinAB wrote:
I agree with the OP. My outlook on this is simple. Shut up and play. I am so sick of hearing people piss and moan about how they can't play this or that legion. You can now mark almost every single model in your entire army (I think except vehicles), and people still aren't happy. You can now apply special rules to every model, but that still doesn't seem to be enough.

Why do we need a World Eaters codex? It would look exactly like the normal Chaos Marine codex, except with options to take bolters instead of chainaxes. Why do we need a special snowflake codex to play Thousand Sons? All you have to do is take the mark of Tzeentch for everything and actually read the background material and use it to help build your army. Emperor's Children? At what point does Mark of Slaanesh automatically mean Noise Marine weapon? It doesn't. Deal with it. And for the unmarked Traitor Legions. This one is my favorite. They have never had special rules, not special units needed to play them. The same goes for the Death Guard and every other "real" Chaos army. Deal with it.

I recommend people actually learn about their armies and build them based on the background material. If you want to play Thousand Sons, build a Thousand Sons army with the rules provided. You'd be surprised what you can accomplish. Instead of pissing and moaning, channel this energy into making a great army.

For those on the other side, who are sick of the complaints and problems, please stay strong. We will come out ahead. But in the meantime, I suggest we do the same thing. Build valid, characterful, and strong Traitor Legion armies to show off the strength of our new codex. Only by proving that you don't need to be a special snowflake will people stop bringing this up.

I agree with you on everything, but the bolded part.

In the 3.5 broken 'dex, Iron Warriors has access to the Tank-Hunter special rule, Night Lords had the Night Vision special rule, and Word Bearers had the Dark Apostle & Demagog special rule.
Alpha Legion IIRC had more infiltrators, but the big add-on was the addition of Cultist units.

So yes, at one time, for a few years at least, the Undivided Legions did have army-wide special rules.
On top of that, IW's could take additional Heavy Support, plus access to a Basilisk or Vindicator, Word Bearers got way more Daemons and Night Lords got an additional Fast Attack choice.

Still, you can easily duplicate almost all of that now with the new 'dex & allies. The only thing that's still technically "missing" are the two army-wide special rules and now an Undivided Prince.

ScooterinAB wrote:
... All you have to do is take the mark of Tzeentch for everything and actually read the background material and use it to help build your army...

... And painting a regular SM codex army red will give you BA?

1ksons is more than just having "mark of Tzeentch for everything".

And that comment about actually reading the backround material? Please take your preconceptions elsewere. Thanks!