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Worth it?

Can they take a pair? If so, is that worth it?

Taking a bezerker champion implies you are taking zerkers, which aren't competitive to begin with. Give him whatever you like

Lightning claws wouldnt be worth it on zerker champs anyway

You can take a pair if you want, but still not worth it.

 Exergy wrote:
Taking a bezerker champion implies you are taking zerkers, which aren't competitive to begin with. Give him whatever you like

Lightning claws wouldnt be worth it on zerker champs anyway

You can take a pair if you want, but still not worth it.

I'm betting this statement comes from the thoughtpool that assaults are garbage.

I don't have the book on me, but I'd imagine a power sword is cheaper than a claw. You'd get an extra attack from the sword and still be AP3.

@Exergy: Thanks for the reply. I'm working with what I have. So, best use is to run them as lean as possible, eh? Can do.

@Dr. What: Also thanks. They cost the same. A pair of LC would cost extra double what a sword costs.

 heysparky wrote:
@Exergy: Thanks for the reply. I'm working with what I have. So, best use is to run them as lean as possible, eh? Can do.

@Dr. What: Also thanks. They cost the same. A pair of LC would cost extra double what a sword costs.

In that case, I'd go sword.

Dr. What wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
Taking a bezerker champion implies you are taking zerkers, which aren't competitive to begin with. Give him whatever you like

Lightning claws wouldnt be worth it on zerker champs anyway

You can take a pair if you want, but still not worth it.

I'm betting this statement comes from the thoughtpool that assaults are garbage.

I don't have the book on me, but I'd imagine a power sword is cheaper than a claw. You'd get an extra attack from the sword and still be AP3.

assault is worse but zerkers are much worse. Losing the extra attack has nerfed them considerably. Ill take 13 point chaos marines with pistol and close combat weapon over 19 point zerkers that have the same number of attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dr. What wrote:


I don't have the book on me, but I'd imagine a power sword is cheaper than a claw. You'd get an extra attack from the sword and still be AP3.

but yes, a power sword is a better option, as you already have FC so you arent going to need the shred to wound. more attacks is better and it may be cheaper.

I use one LC one my champs, mainly because I modeled them originally with Possessed arms counting as PF, but now that's a bad choice with the Champion of Chaos rule. It's not terrible, but it would be great if we got a discount on the pair.

A sword also gets an extra attack because of pistol + CCW

So you're talking about, whatever it is, 3 attacks w/ pistol + CCW compared to 3 attacks w/ dual LC. LC gets a reroll, but just using some placeholder numbers:

Powersword .5*.5*3
.75
Dual LC .5*.75*3
1.125
LC .5*.75*2
.75

YMMV depending on number of attacks, as number of attacks increase (charge, counterattack, etc) increase, LC value increases, etc.

BTW assaults don't suck, but they are at a disadvantage with the new rules change (e.g. the introduction of Overwatch). I would focus more on the units that got a bonus in CC with this new rulebook (e.g. anything with a 2+ armor save) and trying to leverage their newfound advantages in CC, but that's just me. Also, the cost of any Power Armor Marine roughly approaches that of a dual-LC Termie, so it's definitely worth thinking about...

PS, Khorne Berzerkers have a glaring flaw, which is Wargear options - AP- is only so effective against Space Marines and is a crippling flaw of the unit against MEQ armies. 20+ points is a -lot- to spend on an extra wound.

Thanks all for the math and the feedback.

Next questions (and I renamed the topic):

1. Rhino or no Rhino?
1a. If no Rhino, how big a squad?

2. Plasma or no plasma? (Champ included)

3. Power Weapon - which one? (Sword/Axe/Maul/Lance)
-- I'm leaning towards maul

Definitely no Plasma, you want to spend points on range weapons on units that are suppose to shoot, not be in combat.

Maul is no good. AP4. You want at least AP3. No point using AP4 on your champion when you can get AP4 Chain Axes.

You want a weapon on your Champion that will allow you to win challenges (which you're going to be taking a lot of). You need something that will allow you to kill MEQs if not TEQs. Sword has AP3 and Axe has AP2. Whichever one you get will have to inform how you use the unit (e.g. do not charge the unit into something that will require you to take a challenge against a TEQ with a 2+ save if you only have an AP3 Power Sword).

PS I just ran the math again on actual Codex numbers and it turns out that the single Lightning Claw edges out the Power Sword on a Champion. With the Icon and with the Furious Charge bonus, the Lightning Claw and Power Sword are equal. So I would say your options are between Power Axe and Lightning Claw without the Icon. With the Icon, I would say go for the Lightning Claw. But if you get the Lightning Claw, do not charge -any- unit where there is a model that can give or take challenges with a 2+ armor save (e.g. Terminator Sergeant, Ghazghkull Thraka, independent character in Terminator Armor, etc), because you will be forced to take and lose the challenge and thereby lose your Sergeant and all those points you spent.

You can buy an axe to give you more effectiveness against Terminators and the ability to take challenges against Terminators, but it's still dangerous to charge Terminators/TEQ ICs, hence why I say go for the single Lightning Claw.

 Exergy wrote:

Dr. What wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
Taking a bezerker champion implies you are taking zerkers, which aren't competitive to begin with. Give him whatever you like

Lightning claws wouldnt be worth it on zerker champs anyway

You can take a pair if you want, but still not worth it.

I'm betting this statement comes from the thoughtpool that assaults are garbage.

I don't have the book on me, but I'd imagine a power sword is cheaper than a claw. You'd get an extra attack from the sword and still be AP3.

assault is worse but zerkers are much worse. Losing the extra attack has nerfed them considerably. Ill take 13 point chaos marines with pistol and close combat weapon over 19 point zerkers that have the same number of attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dr. What wrote:


I don't have the book on me, but I'd imagine a power sword is cheaper than a claw. You'd get an extra attack from the sword and still be AP3.

but yes, a power sword is a better option, as you already have FC so you arent going to need the shred to wound. more attacks is better and it may be cheaper.

With the 19 points you're paying for extra WS & the mark of khorne.

And you're paying for fearless and furious charge.

I just want to say that anyone who thinks assault is dead is sadly mistaken. One of the local unbeaten players is a khorne player who also had a nurgle army. Now he has sold his nurgle army to buy more khorne.

why?

Because his army is unstoppable.

Basic 2k list is

Kharn
2x Hellbrute equipped for close combat
1x Defilier
1x Landraider with khorne marked termies inside.
the rest is berserkers in rhinos


Even with my super amazing shooty IG I couldnt stop him.

Are the LCs worth it on a Berzerker Champion?
Since it's a specialist weapon a single LC might not seem not as good as a power sword but it's about the same. Same AP, +1A with the power sword vs re-roll to wound... in that case it's your choice on what you believe look more cool on the model.

Dual LCs are a little bit expensive for a Berzerker Champion, I would put another Berzerker in the unit instead of the ugrade for about the same amount of points.

Personnaly I go with a power fist on my Berzerker Champion. It's a little expensive, but those 3 x2S, AP2 attacks generally make a difference on a charge and they usually are the thing that dispose of those annoying walkers when they decide to tie up my unit in CC... 3+, 2+... it's done...

Rhino or no Rhino?
Rhino all the way... now that you can move flat out in the fire phase they make good bunkers for your troops while they cross the field and they are fast.
Mobility is still key and our troops are vital for taking objectives, a rhino is a great protection for them. If they're not blowned apart then they still make great LOS blockers.

Yes they do blow up frequently and they are often glanced to death... but their job is to make your troops survive that first turn of shooting and they still do it quite well.

2. Plasma or no plasma? (Champ included)
Plasma is cool, melta is often better. Melee specialist are better equipped with melta and combi-melta while 3 plasma weapons (2 guns and 1 pistol) can be great in a CSM squad with no CCWs whose job is to take and hold objectives... so really it depends on the job of the squad.

3. Power Weapon - which one? (Sword/Axe/Maul/Lance)
The sword seems to be the weapon of choice on characters with a high initiative... it's also perfect to deal with MEQ infantry with a good armour save... now the power axe is cool on models with average initiative and high strenght... that +1S and AP2 is great to have around when faced with units like Terminator squads... The Maul gives +2S but it's only AP4, not worth it in my book. AP matter the most when fighting with a high WS model, strenght come second.

So power sword first, power axe second and power maul distant third.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bongfu wrote:

...the rest is berserkers in rhinos...

That alone go for the argument of taking rhinos for our troops...
Cross the field... charge !

so 9+1 CSM with mark of khorne and icon of wrath costs the same as 8+1 berzerkers

the leadership is the same on counter charge the only difference is ws 5

so the difference versus chaos space marines is small. berzerkers are better unless you put a fealess character into the unit.

a berzerker champ will want to cause wounds so you will want to go at init 4. versus faster characters you are just saving extra wounds from hitting your squad.
and you want ap3 which covers most of armour out there.
vs power armour.

so 4 attacks on the charge versus 5 attacks on the charge
claw does 2.37 wounds
power sword does 2.22 wounds
power lance does 2.77 wounds
not on the charge: either fail counter charge test or ongoing combat

claw does 1.18 wounds
power sword does 1.33 wounds
power lance does .44 wounds after saves

the claw and the sword are a wash. take what you will. if you face mostly non 3+ armour saves just go with the chainaxe.
double claws will do 2.96 wounds on the charge but you will be rarely fighting a 3 wound character that is going at the same time as you and will not kill you.

the fist in a different realm. it is there for smashing big things like dreads. i haven't played enough games to see if the fist gets smoked before it swings or not.

You really need to build for duels in 6th, which means initiative is king, but you also wanna plan for the occasional terminator. It's not really worth spending many points if you are likely to die while killing your opponent however. That means that lightning claws, while ok, are generally too expensive for a weapon that simply gets you killed the moment you face a terminator, or even another I4 pw user like your average sargent. You'll kill him, but he was cheaper than you.

I would say, in the new codex there are two main options you should consider for I4 and above(so NOT plague marines):

A) Lightning Claw+Power First. This is the big one, the best you can get. It means you get the extra attack with LC, due to the Specialist Weapon rule, AND the option to switch to Powerfisting against terminators. For 10pts more over dual LCs, it's a steal, as it allows you to potentially win any challenge with I4 or less units, or atleast kill your opponent. However, it is debatable if it's really worth it on an I4 unit, like the bezerkers, as they are now very likely to just kill their target and then die against a powersword user. I generally save this for CSMs or Chosen with mark of slaneesh. Add symbol of excess on those, watch them kill everything. Only terminators and beatstick ICs will give you trouble with that setup. Infact, I even give it to termi champs sometimes, so I can assassinate powerfist sargents without fear of reprisal.

For bezerkers however, much like the dual LCs you are probably going to die in the first duel you meet with a power sword user while killing him, so there is little point in them. Remember most multiwound characters tend to be I5, so they'll kill you before you hit them, and for anyone with one wound, the bezerker will kill with a powersword. Exception is possibly librarians, where you need to get that extra wound, but as the poster above shows, the bezerker should be getting two wounds with a sword anyway.

B) Power Sword (+ Meltabombs?) : The cheapo weapon, but a good standby. You wont be killing TeQs with this, but atleast it gives you a fair chance to kill your opponent if he's also a PW user, or it you get lucky and manage to duel a PF sergent. This really should be the default for most Chaos squads. Meltabombs are kinda optional, but good to have in case of dreadnought.

As for the old standby, Powerfists, I would say that they dont have a place for champs now, except with Plague Marines and terminators, as well as specific escorts. Plague Marines dont have the Int to really use anything else, and with T5 and FNP they can survive them anyways. Termi champs are probably better with option A, but for a termicide unit you might wanna just go cheap and go for Powerfist.

In addition, I personally like to give my bezerker champ just a PF when I run them with a lord. I simply let the lord kill the enemy champ with his I5, while the bezerker champ gets to mangle the rest of his units. Works with Kharn too, though I am uncertain if his 1s actually get to hit his squads while he's in a duel, if they dont, even better! Anyone know about that one? I've had some debates.

As for Bezerkers in general, as I mentioned I generally prefer slaneeshy CSMs, as their champion can win almost any duel, and they are generally very durable with symbol of excess. However the Bezerkers do make for good bodyguards for Khorne lords and Kharn, and for that alone they are worth using, as they are better than Khorne CSMs. Remember, Khorne lords can get the Axe of Blind Fury, which is amazing. As such, I tend to run them a lot anyway.

DrDuckman wrote:
Lightning Claw+Power First. This is the big one, the best you can get.

Nice find! I can already see that combo in a Slaanesh CSM squad...

This has been a really helpful thread folks. I appreciate all the info and the math and the suggestions. I feel a lot more informed. I've played all of 4 total games (ever), so it's nice to comb the collective DakkaDakka brain for wisdom.

A single Lightning Claw is generally speaking statistically better than a Power Sword + pistol combo for the same cost. As the number of attacks grow, the extra attack from the pistol becomes less and less valuable relative to the re-roll to wound of the lightning claw. The extra strength on the charge changes this slightly, but the Claw is still statistically better on the charge and equal in subsequent rounds. It is, however, only a slight difference (with the number of attacks a beserker can get), so it basically boils down to a choice between consistent damage (the Claw) or higher max damage (the Sword + pistol).

Rather an axe or powerfist fan on champions myself.

It made me very sad how they still only have that expensive upgrade for plasma pistols in the squad, I was really hoping they'd get to throw in some power weapons or something.

It's very traditional to take a fist on zerker champions. It gives them a little more breadth. They also have lost their +I bonus on charge and make more use of a power fist's fewer but more potent attacks with their naturally larger number of attacks first round of combat and their improved weapons skill.

There is also a neat trick you can do on the charge with challenges when you have an unweildly weapon so that you minimize the damage he can take by keeping the character as far back as possible and then piling him in last for his own attack resolution. Hasn't worked for me yet but friends rave about it. Read up on the challenge and combat resolution sections of the rulebook.

What do people think of 5 man berserker squads? Keep it cheap with just VotLW and a power weapon. Rhino might be nice to help protect them.

Basic idea is 5 guys is enough to kill most shooting squads without investing too many points. Against things like TH/SS terminators, they become threatening speed bumps.

I run my berzerkers with my khorne lord wielding the axe of blind fury. That way if i get issued a challenge by a large unit or powerful unit like TeQ etc the naked berzerker champ accepts the challenge and the lord with his 5+D6 x S6 Ap2 attacks mops up the unit but if it's a small or weaker unit I feel the berzerkers can handle the lord accepts the challenge and gets a roll on the boon table after. Throw the unit in a land raider and its game on bitches!

You guys don't find that a decent number of berserkers handles the terminators reasonably on it's own? Withering down terminators is the standard solution after all.