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So I'm going to be coming into a large number of CSM and I'm thinking about a 2500pt army that spams as many MEQ bodies as possible. As far as HQs I'm looking at Huron for starters, possibly adding Fabulous Bill. Probably a Heldrake, maybe Autocannon Havocs or Oblits. I would like to utilize Raptors as a distraction unit, may Slannesh bikers, or maybe a line of Vindcators to block LOS for the horde. I'm kind of stumped on things like upgrades and working out a good mix of bodies and gear. I would like to take MoN or maybe MoS+IoE on the marines, but not sure if I'd have the points. Anyone have ideas and/or tactics for such an army?

Hmm, if I were you I would probably bring them in mobs of 15 with triple plas MoN, maybe VoTLW, and use them in a tallyman list, supported by Nurgle obliterators, these guys should be able to max out the tally by mid game, and then proceed to be very killy.

I was hoping to stay away from splashing a tally master list because I feel that by the time the new daemon codex drops the tally ability will change/not work with CSM anymore.

My current opinion on CSMs (subject to change) is that they're best when cheap. For me, this means:

1) Take VotLW instead of IoV. Saves me points, is usually good enough, can't be shot out from my squad and I get a reroll against half the armies out there.
2) Forget about ubergrit (BP/CCW/Bolter), its too expensive. Plague marines do it better (plaguegrit?) as do noise marines.
3) Go dual specials.
4) I'm leaving my champions naked, or at most taking a meltabomb for "what if". Thanks to forced challenges, I don't find it cost effective to deck them out anymore.
5) I'm not impressed enough with any of the marks save for maybe Khorne. Plague Marines are still better than MoN, MoS&IoE is too expensive for me and MoTz is just not good.

Ok, I personally don't like mixing vehicles and foot, and prefer to go all foot or all mech. In that case 20 man blobs might be a better option, as either MoN or IoE can be hard to shift off an objective. Huron would certainly be a good HQ, as infiltrating blobs of CSM could potentially be effective and Huron is a good character in general.

Nythryl wrote:
Ok, I personally don't like mixing vehicles and foot, and prefer to go all foot or all mech. In that case 20 man blobs might be a better option, as either MoN or IoE can be hard to shift off an objective. Huron would certainly be a good HQ, as infiltrating blobs of CSM could potentially be effective and Huron is a good character in general.

This was my thinking. I was going to use Huron to outflank a large mob of CSMs, and lay down some dakka while the other mobs advanced. I would like the MoN on them if I could fit the points, but running them without a mark seems to be the cheapest way to do it.

@minigun - I agree with just about everything you've said. I'm not sure about naked champs but I can see the reasoning.

What do you guys think about non troops slots to support such an army?

First thing I look to add to a Chaos army is long range antitank weapons. Luckily we have plenty of options here. AC havocs are becoming the default choice and would work well with big blobs.
Oblits are still very good but you'll want to be a little more aggressive with them since many of the good weapons are 24".

 minigun762 wrote:
First thing I look to add to a Chaos army is long range antitank weapons. Luckily we have plenty of options here. AC havocs are becoming the default choice and would work well with big blobs.
Oblits are still very good but you'll want to be a little more aggressive with them since many of the good weapons are 24".

The problem with Oblits in an infantry heavy army is that, what with the lack of tanks, they suddenly become a priority target for the enemy's anti-tank weaponry, which they won't survive for long. For that reason, I'd say that Havocs is the way to go there, as they can weather more fire.

For that point level I would be packing
3 units of Havocs, 2 with autocannons, 1 with lascannons
2 units of oblits

2 large units of bikes with MoS and icon of excess
2 units of MoN spawn
1 MoN bikecide melta

20 man MoS VotlW CCW + Pistol, bile enhanced marines with icon.

20 man MoS VotlW CCW + Pistol with Icon. Bile or huron go here.

2* 20 man bolter + dual plas

20 man cultist screen

1 termicide melta
5-8 walking terminators with a bunch of power axes. Bile or huron goes here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 htj wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
First thing I look to add to a Chaos army is long range antitank weapons. Luckily we have plenty of options here. AC havocs are becoming the default choice and would work well with big blobs.
Oblits are still very good but you'll want to be a little more aggressive with them since many of the good weapons are 24".

The problem with Oblits in an infantry heavy army is that, what with the lack of tanks, they suddenly become a priority target for the enemy's anti-tank weaponry, which they won't survive for long. For that reason, I'd say that Havocs is the way to go there, as they can weather more fire.

yeah, that is where the MoN or MoT helps. Possibly DS them or keep them out of LOS the first turn.

I am trialling Deep Striking my oblts in a game tonight. I normally have terribel luck but i'm hoping a 3 model unit has less chance of mishap.

If you are looking to spam marines then go cheap. if you are infiltrating them it might bwe worth swappign their bolters for an extra CCW (which is free) to give them all an extra base attack. if you go this route then obviously your best bet for specials are meltas or Flamers (coincidentally, also the cheapest specials).

Not a lot of experience with them but the games I have played with this Codex I've taken a big blob of bp/ccw guys with the IoE. They did beautifully against the 2 MEQ armies I played.

I've had the thought of a 20 man blob nurgle marked with bolters and plasma outflanking with Huron to lay down fire. The 20 man blob with bp/cc, MoS+IoE and special gear would be more expensive plus outflanking would give my opponent a turn to direct all their fire on them before they can make their points back.

If you're already going with a giant CSM squad that is critical to you're army, I could see splurging for ubergrit.

 l0k1 wrote:
I've had the thought of a 20 man blob nurgle marked with bolters and plasma outflanking with Huron to lay down fire. The 20 man blob with bp/cc, MoS+IoE and special gear would be more expensive plus outflanking would give my opponent a turn to direct all their fire on them before they can make their points back.

depends on what special. MoS and icon of excess are great in combat, where you arent going to carry around plasma-guns, so 20 with MoN+plas might well cost more than 20 MoS with icon. With bile's enhancements the unit is fearsome.

Also why outflank when you can infilitrate?

Also making your points back is a silly concept. If you have a Landraider that gets blown up first turn, yet it takes your opponents entire shooting phase to do it, it might not make its points back, but it might be worth it. Similarly if you have a unit of CSM that survives the whole game, never kills a single model but captures and objective. They didnt make their points back but they are worthwhile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 minigun762 wrote:
If you're already going with a giant CSM squad that is critical to you're army, I could see splurging for ubergrit.

I cant, 40 points is a lot. like a unit of cultist lot. You dont need to give the entire squad uber grit though....

 Exergy wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
I've had the thought of a 20 man blob nurgle marked with bolters and plasma outflanking with Huron to lay down fire. The 20 man blob with bp/cc, MoS+IoE and special gear would be more expensive plus outflanking would give my opponent a turn to direct all their fire on them before they can make their points back.

depends on what special. MoS and icon of excess are great in combat, where you arent going to carry around plasma-guns, so 20 with MoN+plas might well cost more than 20 MoS with icon. With bile's enhancements the unit is fearsome.

Also why outflank when you can infilitrate?

Also making your points back is a silly concept. If you have a Landraider that gets blown up first turn, yet it takes your opponents entire shooting phase to do it, it might not make its points back, but it might be worth it. Similarly if you have a unit of CSM that survives the whole game, never kills a single model but captures and objective. They didnt make their points back but they are worthwhile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 minigun762 wrote:
If you're already going with a giant CSM squad that is critical to you're army, I could see splurging for ubergrit.

I cant, 40 points is a lot. like a unit of cultist lot. You dont need to give the entire squad uber grit though....

Good points. I usually go for outflank simply because infiltrating, to me, requires knowledge of the map before setting up a game. Obviously the terrain changes every game so its a little harder to plan for.

Thing is point per point unless it is strength 10 Oblits are going to be more survivable. Simply because of the 2+/5+ compared to havocs. So it is a matter of how many points you have. In lower point games it is less a matter of running out of slots, but points and so havocs start to make more sense. How ever at higher points oblits start to become a good option simply because you only have three heavy slots.

I run combinations of the two most of the time, however I am finding that two units of three nurgle oblits is all the anti tank I usually need. Combined with my heldrakes removing any people that get out of transports it works quite well, especially if you have them advance as part of a aggresive force, something that havocs cant do.

That would only be if the obliterators have the mark of nurgle. They are normally T4 so they have to watch out for S8 and 9 as well.

Well yea, there is no reason i can think of to run oblits without MON, if you are going for a themed list, probably run something else.

Distortionist wrote:
That would only be if the obliterators have the mark of nurgle. They are normally T4 so they have to watch out for S8 and 9 as well.

its either MoN or MoT. MoN will save them from ID, but doesnt help at all against plasma.
Tzeench will decrease the chance of ID and plasma wounds but doesnt help against bolters, or missile launcher.

Completely nude with plasma guns, if you really want massed bodies. Dont upgrade!!

I think at a minimum you are going to want VOTLW.

With so many marine armies out there and the lower leadership, Votlw is a must.