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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/15 21:21:47
Subject: Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Tomorrow I'll be playing in a 1750 pt 3 way (not sure if we're doing objectives or FFA) against a GK army and an Ork green tide. I'm almost 100% positive the GK player will be running Draigo wing, as that's all he plays. Problem is, I can't make a list to save my life (each one I've made seems to fall apart pretty quickly once pressure is put on it) and it seems like what I should run against a green tide is opposite of what I should play against a GK Draigo army. I'm not trying to have someone make my list for me, or list tailor, but some general helpers would be greatly appreciated.
I'd like to take Abaddon and a retinue of close combat terminators (champ with 2 LC, 2 termies with chainfists, 1 with a power maul, combi flamer, 2x combi meltas), but it seems pretty pricey for a 1750 pt list, especially if I stick em in a Land Raider. Either way, here's something I'm working on, for better or worse:
Abby w/those terminators - 452 (I've also thought of throwing a terminator lord instead of Abby, and deep striking them in)
3 squads of 10 CSM - MoN, 2x melta, Champ with LC and combi-melta - 645
Heldrake w/ baleflamer - 170
That leave me with 483 points. I've thought about 2 squads of melta Chosen in rhinos, or the old standby of a full squad of Obliterators. Either way, just feels like I'm going in without a clue and will get smashed. Any help is appreciated.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/15 21:33:10
Subject: Re:Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Krazed Killa Kan
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First thing, if he's doing Draigowing, Abaddon is going to be a great asset, because there is no better model in the challenge.
Second, LC's, chainfists, and Mauls are pointless.
Look at the statline of a Paladin. 2+ armor save, 5+ invuln to ranged combat, and 2 wounds with T4, potentially Feel No Pain. That means that you are going to be best served by anything Strength 8. Strength 8 will negate their Feel No Pain save and cause instant death to any multi-wound Paladin model. You also want AP2 or better, preferably shooting.
There are two items in your Codex that do this. One is a Power Fist. A Power Fist is Strength 8 AP2. A Meltagun is Strength 8 AP1. Therefore if you either use Power Fists or Meltaguns, that will be by far the most efficient way to kill Paladins.
Think about it: your Mauls and your Lightning Claws are dealing with a 2+ armor save and potentially Feel No Pain and 2 wounds. If you got a Power Fist instead, you would be dealing with a 5+ save and 1 wound. Which is better? It should be pretty obvious from seeing the numbers but the math looks even better.
Below is a Lightning Claw versus Power Fist in one round of combat against a Paladin:
Lightning Claw:
.5*.75*.16*.66*3
.118 wounds
Power Fist:
.5*.83*.66*2
.55 wounds times 2 for instant death = 1.10 wounds
Or roughly 10-1 advantage in favor of the Power Fist.
Lightning Claws should only be used against Power Armor GKs. Mauls should preferably not be used at all.
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Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/15 21:46:18
Subject: Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Savage Khorne Berserker Biker
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I'd say the melta chosen are a good bet. They are scoring under Abby and 10 melta shots each turn will put a lot of fear into GK terminator units.
Deep-striking Abbadon is a bad idea, though. It may scatter and cost you your biggest, most dangerous unit. It will sit there doing nothing for a turn being fired at with psycannons and stuff.
My advice is, walk it forward flanked by the chosen rhinos for protections. If the enemy comes in to charge, you can mess them up with meltaguns and block their path. If they chase the rhinos or chosen, Abaddon and his pals can counter-charge and nuke them.
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In Boxing matches, you actually get paid to take a dive and make the other guy look good.
In Warhammer 40K, you're expected to pay cash out of your pocket for the privilege of having Marines and IG trample all over your Xenos/Chaos. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/15 22:36:47
Subject: Re:Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Regular Dakkanaut
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TedNugent wrote:First thing, if he's doing Draigowing, Abaddon is going to be a great asset, because there is no better model in the challenge.
Second, LC's, chainfists, and Mauls are pointless.
Look at the statline of a Paladin. 2+ armor save, 5+ invuln to ranged combat, and 2 wounds with T4, potentially Feel No Pain. That means that you are going to be best served by anything Strength 8. Strength 8 will negate their Feel No Pain save and cause instant death to any multi-wound Paladin model. You also want AP2 or better, preferably shooting.
There are two items in your Codex that do this. One is a Power Fist. A Power Fist is Strength 8 AP2. A Meltagun is Strength 8 AP1. Therefore if you either use Power Fists or Meltaguns, that will be by far the most efficient way to kill Paladins.
Think about it: your Mauls and your Lightning Claws are dealing with a 2+ armor save and potentially Feel No Pain and 2 wounds. If you got a Power Fist instead, you would be dealing with a 5+ save and 1 wound. Which is better? It should be pretty obvious from seeing the numbers but the math looks even better.
Below is a Lightning Claw versus Power Fist in one round of combat against a Paladin:
Lightning Claw:
.5*.75*.16*.66*3
.118 wounds
Power Fist:
.5*.83*.66*2
.55 wounds times 2 for instant death = 1.10 wounds
Or roughly 10-1 advantage in favor of the Power Fist.
Lightning Claws should only be used against Power Armor GKs. Mauls should preferably not be used at all.
Makes sense about the AP. I was worried about them all striking at Initiative 1, but I guess it wouldn't make a difference if their attacks are going to be wasted. So, 4 power fists, 1 on ea terminator?
Just out of curiosity, how does Str8 negate their FnP? Is that something specific to them, because I can't seem to find anything about that in the rule book. Thanks.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/15 22:52:27
Subject: Re:Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Krazed Killa Kan
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Feel No Pain USR, page 35 of the Dark Vengeance mini-rulebook. In short, yes, Strength 8 does deny a Paladin his FNP save. It also denies him his second wound, causing instant death.
Initiative 1 doesn't matter because there is nothing in the Grey Knights Codex that allows them to bypass a 2+ save until initiative 1. Also, he's probably going to be using Force Halberds, which strike at initiative 6, in which case striking at initiative 4 won't mean anything anyway.
Terminators with Power Fists are the anti-Paladin.
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Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/16 01:03:57
Subject: Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Member of the Malleus
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Against the GK melta-pf's-ranged hurt will help, as a BA player I always lays str 8 shots against them. GKs are still long of mid range combat so any ranged dmg outside of 24" will help. Make them walk and enter both yours and the Orcs kill zone.
The Ork will view the GK as his Better target, for Orks weight of fire (noise?) and template (prime bale flamer target) are butter.
Answer for both: ML havocs -> krackin for Darigo and frag for green skin.
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Task Force Rath : 5000
Deathwatch: 4000
6000+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/16 01:59:29
Subject: Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Regular Dakkanaut
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The deadliest thing chaos can bring against paladins with resonable points is Tzeeenech marked terminators with powerfists and combi meltas. The meltas can easly take down 2 paladins, since they lack storm sheilds. The powerfists will take down the rest no problem, unless he goes all thunder hammers.
Abbadon is also highly recommened, to take down Draigo, but to be honest, any terminator lord will do, due to Draigo's AP3 sword. However Abbadon ensure's that you wont lose to a lucky hit that goes through the 2+.
If you DO take Abbadon, make sure you make use of those chosen troop squads. You could be particularly mean and take one with 5 meltas to take down the inevitable Paladins, and 5 flamers for the orks. Switch those 5 meltas to 5 plasmas if you fear he'll switch out his list or just want to avoid looking too list tailory. Those chosen will also be useful against possible dreadknights.
Just be VERY careful not to fill out those chosen squads with too much CC, they get too expensive. Perhaps give a couple of power firsts to the plasma ones, a couple of LCs to the flame ones.
Autocannon havoks are always highly recommended, but in this case, you also want a Vindicator, preferably 2. Vindicators do 3 things well, hordes, terminators, and vehicle squads. You are facing all 3, so go nuts. Finally, Nurgle Obliterators are always a good choice, and particularly here where the extra versitility will be particularly important. Blast those paladins with Las/plasma cannons turn one, heavy flamer those orks to extinction turn three. the fun never ends.
I'd still go for 2 Vindicators over them, as you need to maximize your firepower, but if you dont have the models, Oblits will serve you well.
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2000pts Mech
1000pts Daemonzilla
1500pts Kan Wall
1500pts Driegowing |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/16 02:17:11
Subject: Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
Ye Olde North State
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If you build too much for the paladins, the ork player will be laughing his ass off as he drowns both of your deathstars in angry green flesh. I'd say to go with fast units that can nom the green tide. CSM bikes are great, as are helldrakes. You can scorch out the orks so they don't swamp the table, and otherwise ignore the paladins who you can run circles around.
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grendel083 wrote:"Dis is Oddboy to BigBird, come in over."
"BigBird 'ere, go ahead, over."
"WAAAAAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!! over"
"Copy 'dat, WAAAAAAAGGGHHH!!! DAKKADAKKA!!... over" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/16 02:57:52
Subject: Re:Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Grovelin' Grot
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As an Ork tide player, flame weapons scare the hell out of me and CSM has the ability to take them in significant amounts (hellchicken, demon-flamer-tzeench things, oblits, etc).
Actually, any kind of template weapon when it lands on target makes me cringe a little inside - if my boyz are not spread out enough.
I think another thing my opponents have trouble dealing with when trying to stop my boyz is the Fearless aspect they have while they are above 10 in number. Once you cut their numbers down by focus firing on priority squads they aren't too bad to deal with.
If I was giving out advice on how to nerf my own lists I'd say watch out for (in somewhat order):
1) Bikes
2) Jets
3) Flamer wagons
4) Lootaz
Hope this helps kick some GK and Ork butt!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/16 03:35:26
1000 pts
WLD: 14:8:0
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/16 03:22:35
Subject: Re:Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Thanks for all the advice! I got to working on a list, how do you all think it looks?
Abby - 265
4x Terminators - 4x Power fists, 4x combi meltas, MoT (amongst my play group we agree this is ok), VotLW - 214
5x Chosen - Rhino w/ Dirge, 4x melta, MoN - 185
5x Chosen - Rhino w/ Dirge, 4x flamer, MoN - 165
10x CSM - 2x Melta, MoN - 170
10x CSM - 2x flamer, MoN - 180
5x Havocs - 4x missile launchers, MoN - 150
Heldrake w/ baleflamer - 170
Obliterators w/MoN - 228
It seems like it's kinda scattered, but what do you all think?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/16 03:31:23
Subject: Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Flamers of Tzeentch are the ace in the hole. Paladins? What paladins? I have seen a unit of five flamers erase units that cost four times more than them from the table.
Take as allies, the masque of slaanesh, flamers of tzeentch, some troop choice, doesn't really matter.
Put the masque and flamers in your primary wave. Deepstrike the masque within 18 inches of your preferred target.
Deepstrike the flamers about 6-10 inches from your preferred target. Use pavane from the masque on your target unit. Bring them close to the flamers and line them up into a template friendly formation.
Profit!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/16 03:35:08
Subject: Re:Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Grovelin' Grot
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It looks like it would mess up a green tide army IMO, good work
Against GK I am afraid I will defer to the others for their opinions. - Just let us know how you got on with that list if you end up using it... I'd be really interested in seeing how it turns out!
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1000 pts
WLD: 14:8:0
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/16 07:29:05
Subject: Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Member of the Malleus
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I think thats a solid list for what your facing.
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Task Force Rath : 5000
Deathwatch: 4000
6000+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/16 08:46:57
Subject: Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator
Chicago, IL, USA
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Be careful with the Obliterators and Heldrake around the Grey Knights, preferred enemy can be a quick ticket off the table for any Daemon unit if you're careless about letting psycannons and the like get too close or hang around for too long. Especially prioritize psyflemen dreads, since they can knock down your Heldrake from across the board with a little luck.
You also might want to consider swapping those 10-man CSM squads for 7-man Plague Marine squads, since they're far more durable for the points (albeit they won't be able to score for you). Remember that your Chosen are Troops choices if you're fielding Abbadon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/16 10:16:51
Subject: Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Grovelin' Grot
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Creeperman wrote:Be careful with the Obliterators and Heldrake around the Grey Knights, preferred enemy can be a quick ticket off the table for any Daemon unit if you're careless about letting psycannons and the like get too close or hang around for too long. Especially prioritize psyflemen dreads, since they can knock down your Heldrake from across the board with a little luck.
You also might want to consider swapping those 10-man CSM squads for 7-man Plague Marine squads, since they're far more durable for the points (albeit they won't be able to score for you). Remember that your Chosen are Troops choices if you're fielding Abbadon.
So glad I let this one slip though to the keeper, they sound like they know whats going on.
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1000 pts
WLD: 14:8:0
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/16 23:28:57
Subject: Re:Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Well, that was an utter disaster. Ork player fielded green tide, with 9 bikers, I think around 8 or so lootas, Ghazghkull, and a good number of boyz and 2 zap guns, while GK/IG player fielded several Leman Russes, a Medusa, a Storm Raven with some IG termie killer unit in it, some heavy weapon teams, and not sure what else. I got a corner and was pounded by 2 of the Russes, a CSM unit took a Bastion, and I focused on the Orks coming my way. Eventually my missile launcher havocs and Heldrake took out the Storm Raven, but beyond that I didn't take down a lot. I'm too cautious I'm finding out. I didn't deep strike Abby and his retinue, so they just kinda walked toward the ork side. They took down the biker squad after some help with the IG, then Abby was left after the terminators got wiped out by the lootas. After he was locked in combat, I had to leave.
At the end, the only units of mine left on the field were Abby, a rhino, 2 CSM troops, 3 havocs, and an obliterator. Didn't do a whole ton of killing, and I was getting a ton of trouble from the lootas and bikers (their guns had so many shots). The CSM troops, even with MoN, died extremely fast, while the melta Chosen were taken out by bikers before I could shoot at em. All in all, a terrible game, much of which can be blamed on my lack of skills and a lackluster list.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 19:44:54
Subject: Re:Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Grovelin' Grot
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Sorry to hear that, on paper it looked OK. As mentioned, ork bikes and lootaz are fearsome things; The bastion wouldn't have made life easy. When I get a disappointing defeat much like what you describe out group always does a "post operation analysis" where we sit around and discuss which units for each army did good/bad... how they were used, and if they could have been deployed better in the other players opinions.
Give some thought to some of those things and if you would like some help against the ork player send me a PM mate.
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1000 pts
WLD: 14:8:0
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 19:57:10
Subject: Re:Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Kremlin wrote:Sorry to hear that, on paper it looked OK. As mentioned, ork bikes and lootaz are fearsome things; The bastion wouldn't have made life easy. When I get a disappointing defeat much like what you describe out group always does a "post operation analysis" where we sit around and discuss which units for each army did good/bad... how they were used, and if they could have been deployed better in the other players opinions.
Give some thought to some of those things and if you would like some help against the ork player send me a PM mate.
Yeah, those bikes and lootas are the bane of my existence. Thanks, I'll PM you later with some questions. Re working a list to include some bikers of my own, one thing I noticed was how bad it is when you lack mobility.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/17 20:20:57
Subject: Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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hmm against the GK i agree about having abby(also why not its a 3some)
You gotta plan on scaring the GK player with your PE bubble. Melta or plasma chosen your terminators should do the trick.
For your terminators you have to ask if you can have abby join a marked squad. Tzeench or Nurgle terminators would be awesome. Powerfists and single lightning claws are where it is at here add a heavy flamer for the orks, possibly with some combi weapons too.
For the orks, I would take a unit of flamer chosen. 5 flamers in a large 10 man squad with MoK. No way this thing gets charged and doenst come out winning.
Also note that forgefineds plasma are str8 and AP2 blast templates.
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Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/18 02:15:03
Subject: Playing CSM in a 3 way against Orks and GK, need some pointers
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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See this thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/494638.page
I just finished up a 3 way game versus Orks and IG. Army list is near the end, talks a little bit about differences between 2 way and 3 way battles and why Abaddon may be the perfect choice for an HQ in such frays.
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