Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I enjoy playing competitive (or at least semi-competitive) lists and I almost always play to win. However, for newer players or for people who can't play regularly, I just want them to have a good time...even if it means taking a sub-par list or making game errors (not bending the rules, just casually forgetting to shoot or move something, for example).

I'd like to know, in your opinion, what makes a list fun to play against? What makes a player fun to play against?

For the record, my armies are Tyranids and Tau.

1) Everything painted nicely.

2) The player isn't TFG.

3) Lots of expensive elite infantry for my Medusas to squish.

so, a few things.

- Having a lot of "events". Having something come in from deepstriking or outflanking is an event. Having something pop out from behind a wall and blast something is an event. Something charging into close combat is an event. The most fun games are the ones in which a bunch of stuff happens.

Pretty much the opposite of this is two gunlines facing off. Nothing happens in the movement or assault phases. Both players just sit there rolling dice with nothing else happening.

- Diversity. Sort of a sub-set of the above. Games are more fun when lots of different kinds of things happen. I always like it when there is at least one assault in a game, regardless of how it goes, for example.

- Being able to do stuff. If you shut down your opponent's ability to do anything, they're not going to do much, and they're not going to have fun. Don't ALWAYS kill off your opponent's CC units before they ever get a chance to chop something, for example. Likewise, flier spam or armies with lots of MSM capabilities are awful to play against because you don't really get to do very much. The game is just sort of you packing up your minis and hoping for a few good die rolls. Boring...

- Killing stuff. "Send in the next wave!" conscripts are one of the most fun unit in the game, because your opponent gets the gratification of killing dozens and dozens of guardsmen every game, while you get the gratification of always being able to just send in more to do stuff with. If you're playing an all-mech list, and your opponent didn't bring enough anti-tank (or you shut it down right away, or your opponent is unlucky that game, etc.), then your opponent, once again, is just going to kind of sit there hoping on a few good die rolls without being able to do much. If your opponent loses a game in what amounts to a shut out, it's not going to be much fun. Even if you beat him badly, if he got to kill a bunch of stuff, he'll still be able to fondly remember at least doing something.

You may have noticed, that I didn't include "taking terrible lists", or "playing the game wrong". Don't confuse winning with having fun. Some of my best games were losses. It's the game itself being fun that's important, not the outcome.

Siphen wrote:
I enjoy playing competitive (or at least semi-competitive) lists and I almost always play to win. However, for newer players or for people who can't play regularly, I just want them to have a good time...even if it means taking a sub-par list or making game errors (not bending the rules, just casually forgetting to shoot or move something, for example).

I'd like to know, in your opinion, what makes a list fun to play against? What makes a player fun to play against?

For the record, my armies are Tyranids and Tau.

The most fun armies to play against, IMO, have a coherent theme (this is primarily visual and a little bit army composition), are all painted and based, and are commanded by someone who is affable and knows how to have a good time.

You'll notice that not much of this has to do with the actual army list. I don't think the army list is a huge factor in what is or isn't fun, aside from armies that don't engage with the enemy in a meaningful fashion for most of the game (Ninja Tau is the best example). That said, I think that dynamic games are generally more fun, so I would include a fair amount of mobility instead of just a pure gunline.

 Ailaros wrote:
Don't ALWAYS kill off your opponent's CC units before they ever get a chance to chop something, for example.

If you're killing them all off before they can do anything it's your opponent's fault. And no, I'm not going to suicide one of my 3-4 small infantry units just so my opponent can get a free kill.

armies with lots of MSM capabilities

You keep saying this, but you never seem to be willing to admit that you called every Tau player TFG.

- Killing stuff. "Send in the next wave!" conscripts are one of the most fun unit in the game, because your opponent gets the gratification of killing dozens and dozens of guardsmen every game, while you get the gratification of always being able to just send in more to do stuff with.

At least until your opponent recognizes the futility of their "accomplishment" and starts to hate them, you mean?

The biggest thing I find that makes any list fun to play against, is the player. You could bring the most cheesy, powerful, broken list you could possible conjure up and be the nicest guy in the world, and I would have fun playing against you. Or you could bring a family friendly, fluffy list and be a complete douche, I really wouldn't enjoy playing against you.

However the above combinations very rarely go hand in hand.

Scantily-clad women cheering on my every move and die-roll.

IMO, the most fun armies are ones with variety, that let me feel like I have options. A few infantry squads, a few vehicles, some shooting, some close combat, etc. I think for the most part, it's letting the other person feel like they have a chance. If you're confident that a large portion of your army is going to die, I think you're doing ok. If you've taken something you're confident will table your opponent with few losses, you're doing it wrong.

It's hard to really pin it down. Experience with your local group will be your best ally. But the fact that you're even thinking about your opponents enjoyment while building your list means you're already on the right track

 TheCaptain wrote:
Scantily-clad women cheering on my every move and die-roll.

Wait, there are places where this doesn't happen?

There is no answer to this question.

You can't make your opponent have fun if he's intent on not letting that happen. People who's fun is tied to what you're using are generally pretty far down that path already.

a couple months back i played a imperial gaurd army and he used the chafers last chancers if i got that one right and it was really fun. i rushed it with a dreadnot and they all ran and died

tonyneedspills23 wrote:
a couple months back i played a imperial gaurd army and he used the chafers last chancers if i got that one right and it was really fun. i rushed it with a dreadnot and they all ran and died

So your idea of a fun list to play against is one where your opponent brings a unit that isn't part of the game anymore and you slaughter it?

I suppose everyone has their weird preferences, but I think I'll take the scantily-clad cheerleaders instead.

Haha, thanks for all the great replies!

I guess my remaining question would be; is there anything in either of my armies that I should specifically include or exclude?

For example, bringing a massive amount (or any) psychic powers with Tyranids. Very few armies have any answer to psychic powers. Would they be annoying or frustrating to play against?
What about Monstrous Creatures? Even the "bad" ones seem unstoppable if a newer player forgot to take decent weapons for dealing with them. ("What?! 90% of my guns only wound that thing on a 6 and THEN you have a 3+ save?!)

On the flip side, do people generally love playing against Tyranid Warriors or Genestealers?

I fully realize that the game isn't just about winning or losing, but feeling helpless against something you're not prepared for (such as psychic powers, monstrous creatures, swarms, etc) can definitely hurt a game.

Siphen wrote:
I fully realize that the game isn't just about winning or losing, but feeling helpless against something you're not prepared for (such as psychic powers, monstrous creatures, swarms, etc) can definitely hurt a game.

Honestly if you completely failed to prepare for something as general as "MCs exist" then it's your fault and you should just accept the loss and try to do better next time.

Eldercaveman wrote:
The biggest thing I find that makes any list fun to play against, is the player.

QFT. I've played games where my opponent had no social skills or tried to cheat at every opportunity and that just isn't fun.


I'd like to raise a point. Does it have to be fun? Can the game be engaging without being fun?

"Oh Watson and Crick discovered the double helix. Did they do it on a skateboard? No? feth off then."

It's all in the attitude. Attitude and respect. Play with a good attitude and respect your opponent and you will have fun. Now if only both parties can have the same attitude....

 TheCaptain wrote:
Scantily-clad women cheering on my every move and die-roll.

Clearly folks saying otherwise don't know what its like to watch the Dallas Cowboys Cheer-squad jump up and down, yelling at my opponent to roll ones for Termie-saves.

It's magical.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
Scantily-clad women cheering on my every move and die-roll.

Clearly folks saying otherwise don't know what its like to watch the Dallas Cowboys Cheer-squad jump up and down, yelling at my opponent to roll ones for Termie-saves.

It's magical.

We're talking about 40k here bud, not Fantasy.

When I play against Tyranids, one of the most fun things for me is slaughtering carpets of gaunts. So whenever my opponent brings out a tervigon I grin pretty widely.

I wouldn't say that you should purposely play badly or "forget" to do things. If you feel the need to give yourself a handicap like that then give your opponent suggestions (ask them first though, because sometimes it bugs people). Say stuff like "remember if you move x there then I can shoot you with this", or "your x cannon might be better off shooting at this", or "remember the objectives, I have troops here that you need to kill". That way you don't feel like you are letting them win, and they can get better at the game.

And finally, if you're just going for a friendly game with nothing riding on it then take more risks.

If you want your opponent to have fun then be polite and play fair. Having roughly the same understanding regarding the kind of game you wish to play ( competative, story driven, both?) helps as well.
Everything else is up to your opponent.

Siphen wrote:

For example, bringing a massive amount (or any) psychic powers with Tyranids. Very few armies have any answer to psychic powers. Would they be annoying or frustrating to play against?

IMO I would stay from psychic powers, to help them learn the game a little before confusing them with more stuff. I have introduced quite a few people to the game and I usually just stick to my SM list (Tac squad, Captain, Scouts, Dreadnought) to keep it simple.

 Griddlelol wrote:

"Oh Watson and Crick discovered the double helix.

Actually they did using a friends picture that they stole from her (like, literally they took the picture and snuck out of the house), so really it should be HER discovery not theirs....lol biology teaches me something...


Any list is a fun list to me, It all just depends on how the player goes about playing it. Even "OP, Broken, WAAC netlists" can be fun if they player is a good guy about it and doesn't spam you with WAAC and TFG comments...

I am actually rather concerned about this point with the ABG list I am running. I really don't want to be the guy who turns up with a load of russes and is invincible. I think that against some people it would be a bit boring if they brought little AT and I just slaughtered them. I think that in such a case I would try to ram tanks down their throat, go for the risky cinematic victory. At least most tings can slaughter a russ in close combat.

I don't really have room to take any extra forces, to switch out to a more conventional list if needed. I already have to leave my rule book behind to take IA1, I really need to get a paperback but they can be expensive.

 washout77 wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

"Oh Watson and Crick discovered the double helix.

Actually they did using a friends picture that they stole from her (like, literally they took the picture and snuck out of the house), so really it should be HER discovery not theirs....lol biology teaches me something...

Indeed, Rosalind Franklin. They didn't steal her x-ray diffractions but used them - just like all scientific data is used by others (until big pharma gets its hands on it). Unfortunately for her you can't nominate people for a Nobel Prize if they're dead.

Anyway...divergence.

I don't think 40K always needs to be fun, some games in tournaments can be highly engaging without me laughing or chatting to my opponent. Concentrating on the game and decision making instead of jumping for joy can be awesome.

As a blood angel player, I hate it when people bring 3 storm ravens to fight units like Tau and Eldar knowing they don't have any flyers to hit back with.

I love a good balance and take as many different models as possible. As said earlier, having lots of 'events' makes a fun game. I'd rather lose with a smile on my face than win and feel nothing.

Whenever i play a game, i can generally divine my opponents intentions during deployment, and of course formulate a strategy to counter it.

The best games i have played are when i have worked out what his plan is, but have no idea how to stop it, or when i rarely have no idea what he is going to do. I will usually go very quiet, and concentrate so hard people think my temples are going to burst....

Food, drink, jokes, and good friends. That's what makes a list fun. The list can be good or bad, and you can win or lose, but as long as you have the four things I've mentioned, the game will always be fun.