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Yo.

Question for some of the more experience competitive players; at what point is an army too much when it comes to conversion or representation in competition?

Here's the thing. I'm loving Chaos right now, but some of their options are dubious. For giggles, I was thinking "Hey, how about I use the Grey Knight Codex, but represent all the models with their comparable Chaos model?" For instance, Abbaddon = Draigo, Sorceror = Librarian, Chaos Termmy = GK Termmy/Paladin, Havocs = Purifiers, etc, etc.

Would you be reluctant at all to play against a list like this? Does the representation of models, even if equipped with similar(or identical) looking wargear cause too much confusion to be allowed for competitive play?

Cheers!

RAW (which is the answer you get in this forum, if you want to ask about third-party TOs and how they run their events you need to post in the tournament forum) counts-as of any kind is illegal. You must use the exact model as GW sells it, without any conversion, counts-as, etc. Any deviation from the standard model is not permitted by the rules, and requires you and your opponent to agree to create a house rule allowing the non-standard model.


(The end result of this is that there is no universal "what is acceptable", and the only way to answer this question is to talk to the specific people you will be playing with.)

 Peregrine wrote:
RAW (which is the answer you get in this forum, if you want to ask about third-party TOs and how they run their events you need to post in the tournament forum) counts-as of any kind is illegal. You must use the exact model as GW sells it, without any conversion, counts-as, etc. Any deviation from the standard model is not permitted by the rules, and requires you and your opponent to agree to create a house rule allowing the non-standard model.


(The end result of this is that there is no universal "what is acceptable", and the only way to answer this question is to talk to the specific people you will be playing with.)

Cheers, appreciate it. I suppose it would only work for friendly games rather than competition. I could always run them like that in friendly games, then just run a Chaos list if I ever(unlikely) play in a tourney

Appreciate the clarification!

I'm moving this to 40k General Discussions, as it's not really a rules question. I think 40k General Discussions is a bit better fit than the Tournament forum, because it doesn't sound like the OP is strictly asking about how people would react to it/whether it would be allowed in tournaments.

-------------------

As for the original question, I've certainly seen it done, and done well. The absolutely critical part, as you indicate you understand, is to make sure that the wargear/weapons/armor match up to the units you're "counting as", and preferably that the sizes match pretty closely too.

If I were doing the Abaddon/Draigo swap, for example, I'd make sure to model a shield onto Abby, and probably raise him a little on a scenic base, as the old Abaddon model is a bit smaller than the newer Draigo model.

I ran Chaos models counting-as Space Wolves at the NorthEast Warhammer Club Championship a couple of months ago, and it worked fine. I had a bike sorcerer (actually converted from the Ravenwing Sgt in the Dark Vengeance box) as my Rune Priest on a bike. I had CSMs with bolters, BP & CCW counting as Grey Hunters. I had old metal Chaos Hounds counting as Fenrisian Wolves. Havocs for Long Fangs, etc.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I'm moving this to 40k General Discussions, as it's not really a rules question. I think 40k General Discussions is a bit better fit than the Tournament forum, because it doesn't sound like the OP is strictly asking about how people would react to it/whether it would be allowed in tournaments.

Well, they did say "in competition" which implies that they're talking about a tournament.

Cheers, appreciate it. I suppose it would only work for friendly games rather than competition

That depends on who is running the tournament. Since GW does not provide official tournament rules or run tournaments what is and isn't legal in a tournament is entirely up to the person running it. Some people enforce strict WYSIWYG with only standard models allowed, some people allow a lot of flexibility with conversions and counts-as. The only way to find out the answer is to ask the person running the specific tournaments you are interested in.

What is presented above would suggest that no conversions of any kind would be allowed. I don't remember a rule from the rule book stating such, but I'd welcome the quoted text.
This is unlikely considering there are and have been rules for models which are not even available in the GW model line. Also consider the rules about having particularly heroic poses and arm positions and banners which do not count as targetable objects in true line of sight.

I would be very VERY surprised if any opponent ever told you they would not play with you because you are customizing an army your way. The purpose of this hobby is to enjoy making an army which is truly your own, and the purpose of GW's marketing is to sell models, not stick to rules (I think that particular point would be easily agreed upon).

Obviously, if you are "modeling for advantage" this would be a grossly inappropriate exploitation of the generosity alotted in customizing an army. It's best to not create models or positions which could be perceived in this way.

If you are planning to enter a tournament and have doubts about your army, show it to the coordinator well before the event so there are no problems.

A final hint is that a heavily converted army which shows skill, commitment, creativity, and theatrics is not only acceptable by everyone I have ever met, but is actually a highly pleasurable and valued opponent.

I welcome it.
-Mark

Part of what makes Warhammer and 40k what they are comes down to the models and conversions. What I would argue is when does it become a conversion versus a proxy. GW is hugely in favor of conversions as found in the simple rules for Golden Demon where models have to be at least 50% GW.

If someone is trying a list out, then you could probably get away with a proxy in a friendly setting, but it's always better to have the wargear represented correctly. If you're playing a tournament, then proxying isn't going to work.

That being said, I don't know how many times we've all seen amazing armies that are "counts as" because they have no models or rules of their own... Adeptus Custodes, AdMech, etc.

Well, the list I was thinking is something like this;

HQ
Draigo - Abaddon or some other Chaos Lord
Librarian - Sorcerer

Elites
Venerable Rifleman Dread w/ Psybolt - Corrupted Helbrute
Venerable Rifleman Dread w/ Psybolt - Corrupted Helbrute

Troops
10 Paladins w/ 4 cannons, 2 hammer, 3 halberds, warding stave, sword, banner - Chaos Termies with scavenged bits to match the weapons as closely as possible.
1 Paladin w/ Hammer

Heavy Support
Rifleman Dread w/ Psybolt - Corrupted Dreadnaught
Rifleman Dread w/ Psybolt - Corrupted Dreadnaught
Rifleman Dread w/ Psybolt - Corrupted Dreadnaught

Mark_Autarch wrote:
What is presented above would suggest that no conversions of any kind would be allowed. I don't remember a rule from the rule book stating such, but I'd welcome the quoted text.

You have that backwards. To do something you need to have a rule which says you can, you don't assume that you can unless you have a rule that says you can't. There is no rule that gives you permission to convert the standard models or use anything other than what GW says is the correct WYSIWYG model, so you don't have permission to do it.

(I can just arbitrarily kill your unit because I want to. Show me a rule that says I can't.)

This is unlikely considering there are and have been rules for models which are not even available in the GW model line.

RAW you can't use those units yet.

Also consider the rules about having particularly heroic poses and arm positions and banners which do not count as targetable objects in true line of sight.

GW produces standard, WYSIWYG, unconverted models which have heroic poses/banners/etc.

I would be very VERY surprised if any opponent ever told you they would not play with you because you are customizing an army your way. The purpose of this hobby is to enjoy making an army which is truly your own, and the purpose of GW's marketing is to sell models, not stick to rules (I think that particular point would be easily agreed upon).

You're missing the point. The point here is that conversions/counts-as/etc only exist as house rules, there is no official policy on what is and isn't acceptable. Therefore the only way to find out if a particular conversion/counts-as model/etc is acceptable is to ask the people you will be playing with, or to agree, as a group, on what kinds of things you will or will not allow. And there is no right or wrong answer, only personal preferences.

As far as every tournament I have ever been in or ran, as long as you are WYSIWYG you are golden, provided you aren't modeling for advantage.

Now, I might be a bit of a weiner, but I consider fielding deliberately confusing choices to be modeling for advantage. (Via duplicitous or incomplete conversion work.)

Fielding Abaddon and saying he's Draigo is fine (in a friendly game) but in a competitive event, you need to have extended the conversion to the point where it is obvious that this model is intended to represent Kaldor Draigo. (File off the Chaos symbols. Put on some Grey Knights iconography.) This includes, to meet the standards of WYSIWYG, representing all equipment that the model has, as well as removing any equipment that he DOESN'T have. I don't think "counts as" should fly in a tournament setting if what you are modelling is representative of another codex than the one you are using. Using Space Wolves and saying they are Dark Angels isn't copacetic, but the Great Grot Rebellion (an Imperial Guard analog army entirely converted from enlarged and exhaustively upgraded grots) is, because there is no codex that a reasonable person could believe they were using.

I would be absolutely astounded if you managed to find a reasonable person who tried to claim that you could not use a conversion in competitive play. (Although I wouldn't put it past someone to try and deny you the ability to use a converted character simply to deny you the use of that character.) I think that you might find people who were a little more iffy about entire counts-as armies, but in those cases you should just clear the issue up with the TO beforehand. (Since their word is going to be final in a tournament setting.) I generally find it best that you keep a small list of issues you've had/heard of/seen that might affect your army, and try to find out before any tournament how the TO feels about them.

Now with all that being said, I think you might also want to prepare yourself for some skepticism. While you might have no ill will in mind, I think that the popular opinion right now is that Grey Knights are a more effective army than Chaos Marines. If you are not doing any extensive conversion work, but simply trying to run a counts-as army, then I think it would be very easy for someone to perceive what you are doing as nothing more than a cheap ploy to play a more competitive army without having to buy the models. (Regardless of your actual intentions.)

So, hope that helps, and good luck.

 Peregrine wrote:
The point here is that conversions/counts-as/etc only exist as house rules, there is no official policy on what is and isn't acceptable. Therefore the only way to find out if a particular conversion/counts-as model/etc is acceptable is to ask the people you will be playing with, or to agree, as a group, on what kinds of things you will or will not allow. And there is no right or wrong answer, only personal preferences.

That is true... but we do have page 323 BRB and 335 to establish that conversion is part of the hobby and is endorsed by GW.... and one of the functions of a forum (like this one) can be to establish what is generally acceptable and what is not.

For a tournament, I would expect WYSIWYG, so SS on Abaddon, personal teleporters on the "Interceptors", actual psycannons and such where needed (or excellent approximations thereof, no heavy bolters as psycannons). To me, the second things don't easily simulate what they "count as" and I have to keep track of your army (instead of just looking and knowing), its too much leeway on the counts as side.

If its all WYSIWYG, then all is good. Color scheme has never been important. But a bolter will always be a bolter.

There USED to be a policy that encouraged Counts As and conversions, but that was back before GW became a money hungry company. Back then, there was actually a GW published paper instructing you on how to make a Killa Kan out of an old empty soda can. Now a day's, that wouldn't go. Kinda sad really.

I have always found that GW is approving of conversion work, just as long as all the conversion parts are GW bits so they still get the money

Well, WYSIWYG is a little difficult to get perfect with this kind of conversion. If I run a Chaos Termy as a Paladin w/ Psycannon and, say, a Halberd, there's going to be a little difficulty converting the Psycannon. The Halberd could be made with a Banner. I think as long as there is consistency, there shouldn't be an issue.

Delineating which model is which is key.

Thanks for the input all!

 Lobukia wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
The point here is that conversions/counts-as/etc only exist as house rules, there is no official policy on what is and isn't acceptable. Therefore the only way to find out if a particular conversion/counts-as model/etc is acceptable is to ask the people you will be playing with, or to agree, as a group, on what kinds of things you will or will not allow. And there is no right or wrong answer, only personal preferences.

That is true... but we do have page 323 BRB and 335 to establish that conversion is part of the hobby and is endorsed by GW.... and one of the functions of a forum (like this one) can be to establish what is generally acceptable and what is not.

For a tournament, I would expect WYSIWYG, so SS on Abaddon, personal teleporters on the "Interceptors", actual psycannons and such where needed (or excellent approximations thereof, no heavy bolters as psycannons). To me, the second things don't easily simulate what they "count as" and I have to keep track of your army (instead of just looking and knowing), its too much leeway on the counts as side.

You also have in most of codex books in the rules for special characters that you can use different models to represent them. It is pretty obvious that GW encorage conversions seeing as its house magazine showcases them and they sell a variety of products to convert models.
Also the arguement that you have to have a rule/law to make something legal is pretty terrible. You can't just kill an entire unit due to all the rules that govern turn sequence and wargear effect. There is a point where game creators have to assume the reader has a standard level of intelligence to understand what they have created.

To the OP: it is all down to how you do it, if you make a standard wargear comparison for all your army (i.e. This type of weapon is a nemisis force halberd, this one is a nemisis force sword, etc.) For counts-as chaos force it is usually easier to use a one of the other SM codex forces, a bezerker on juggernaut would be clearly a thunderwolf cavalry if you are using C:SW and for the most part all the wargear is the same. Most GW stores don't mind armies like that, most indie stores don't mind and most tourniments don't mind.

The best thing to remember is attitude if you act nice, answer questions (or even go to the effort to give your competitor an army crib sheet) you will be fine.

Yeah, I would like to see the "RAW", which is Rules as Written part of the 6th Edition book that says that you have to use exact models and tha conversions and "Counts As" is illegal, when the book specifically shows converted armies and gives suggestions of how to do it, lol.


I mean, I'm not saying it isn't there since I haven't really dug too heavily into the book. But I'm skeptical such a thing exists. They might not tell you how to make hover tanks out of deodorant sticks and Space Marine gunships out of Apache Helicopter model kits anymore...

 Peregrine wrote:
You have that backwards. To do something you need to have a rule which says you can, you don't assume that you can unless you have a rule that says you can't. There is no rule that gives you permission to convert the standard models or use anything other than what GW says is the correct WYSIWYG model, so you don't have permission to do it.

There are also no rules that allow you to assemble (although you may base your model) or paint your model since there are no rules which govern those. Good luck with that interpretation.

RAW you can't use those units yet.

There is also no RAW that indicates which models have to be used for which units. Only that you use Citadel miniatures to represent them. So, according to 6th and your 'permissive ruleset' argument, the game breaks down the first time we are asked to represent a model since there is no rule that tells us how to figure that out.

You're missing the point. The point here is that conversions/counts-as/etc only exist as house rules, there is no official policy on what is and isn't acceptable. Therefore the only way to find out if a particular conversion/counts-as model/etc is acceptable is to ask the people you will be playing with, or to agree, as a group, on what kinds of things you will or will not allow. And there is no right or wrong answer, only personal preferences.

All of 40k is basically social contract. Otherwise the game breaks down because many of the most basic parts of the game (assembly, painting, conversion, how to know which model matches which unit) are not allowed or covered by the rules. So just play with random sprues glued to bases, I guess.

Its got to be WYSIWYG.

Saying abbadon is draigo is a bit of a stretch, as they have vastly different gear.

Some one mentioned that you can do conversion, thats not entirely true, you can do conversions but only with other GW products, like i can convert vulkan to hold his spear a diffident way, as long as he has the spear and its a GW part its fine

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Some one mentioned that you can do conversion, thats not entirely true, you can do conversions but only with other GW products, like i can convert vulkan to hold his spear a diffident way, as long as he has the spear and its a GW part its fine

Rules quote, please...

There are no rules/guidelines for conversions, painting or assembly. Just basing.

Just paint the army REALLY well and no one will care.. lol

And also WYSIWYG take off Abaddon's claw, give him a Storm Shield and convert a Storm Bolter. I wouldn't have an issue with it..

p.s. paint it REALLLLLLY well

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Some one mentioned that you can do conversion, thats not entirely true, you can do conversions but only with other GW products, like i can convert vulkan to hold his spear a diffident way, as long as he has the spear and its a GW part its fine

Uh.....maybe if you play in GW stores in England.

Here in the US, GW has completely pulled out of tournament support. Because of that, no tourneys that I know of require GW models. You can bring LEGO marines if you wanted. I don't see any tourney here in the states not allowing it.



Maybe if GW started caring about the tourney scene again, we might care about GW models again.

lol @ the pic. The amusing part is that a lot of the lego counts-as are just as expensive in parts.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Its got to be WYSIWYG.

Saying abbadon is draigo is a bit of a stretch, as they have vastly different gear.

As long the rules are modeled the gear has leeway. So you could do draigo as abbadon. Take a little work on the modeling side , though. As to CSM via GK, been done alot, especailly by 1kson's players that wanted a more fluffy feeling army.

If it's been modeled from the ground up to be a certain army, then I'm OK with that. What bothers me to no end is people shuffling around to get Flavor of the Month Marines.

Oh, you mean your Ultramarines are now Blood Angels? But they were Space Wolves last week? Interesting...tell me more...

As long as they are modeled correctly, it shouldn't matter if they shuffle them around.

 pretre wrote:
As long as they are modeled correctly, it shouldn't matter if they shuffle them around.

This.

Its actually harder than you think just just turn your ultramarines into SW. You need to make sure you have terminators, banner poles, a way to signify MotW.
If you want to switch to BA, how are you going to mark your sang priests?

If someone is swithing their grey, unpainted armless models to the flavor of the month, I get your bitch, but if someone takes the time to model their army, let em play what they want.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 pretre wrote:
As long as they are modeled correctly, it shouldn't matter if they shuffle them around.

This.

Its actually harder than you think just just turn your ultramarines into SW. You need to make sure you have terminators, banner poles, a way to signify MotW.
If you want to switch to BA, how are you going to mark your sang priests?

If someone is swithing their grey, unpainted armless models to the flavor of the month, I get your bitch, but if someone takes the time to model their army, let em play what they want.

I agree 100%. The thing is, they don't. Most people who do this will usually say, "OK, this apothecary is my sang priest. The guy with a red dot on his bolter hand is the MotW guy, and all the guys with green eyes are holding Wolf Standards".

Yea, I know those kind of guys.

I don't mind if they proxy a bit to see if they want to make a new army, but full time playing like that is really weak.

Going "Counts As" and doing it right isn't really that "hard". Magnets and creativity work wonders.

But it's not overly simple either. Anyone who actually models a Space Marine army to be "Counts As" for three or more codex books has put in a lot of thought and effort. If anything, given that this is a "hobby" and not just a game, that sort of effort should be applauded.


But let's be realistic. People bitching about "Flavor of the Month Marines" are usually using arguments steeped in jealousy and the arrogant assumption that their way of playing is the right way.

Though, something tells me a fair number of people just play the same models and run fast and loose with "counts as". But still. It's a game. Everyone is supposed to have fun doing it. Stop caring if your opponent wants to try a different army. Not everybody can just up and buy a new army every time they want to try something new. We're not playing with monopose green plastic army men here.