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Hey guys, just wanted to let all you Tyranid players in on what Forgeworld wrote me and others in my gaming group about the Hierophant.

This is what I wrote:

My gaming group and I are in a heavy dispute about the hierophant. Now I have the rules, however, in 6th edition things have changed greatly.

1. Does the hierophant have a 5+ invul save granted through the old rules of does it get the new warp field granted from the 5th edition codex?

2. Is the hierophant still a physic character? If so what mastery level is it and what powers would it have access to?

Please help me. I just bought this hierophant model and I dont even want to use it as it s causing too many problems at my gaming group.

Thank you for your time.
Justin


This is their answer:


Hi,




Thanks for your e-mail. As with all units, the most recent Codex applies to any special rules or abilities that appear on a unit's profile. As such the Codex version of Warp Field applies to the bio-titan rules printed in Warhammer 40,000 Apocalypse. Note that we cannot make adjustments or issue erratas for Games Workshop publications.

The Heirphant is not a psyker; Warp Field in this case is essentially a 'passive' effect that the creature does not have to attempt to 'cast'.

If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.

Regards,

Forge World






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Games Workshop Limited, registered in England and Wales, under company number 1467092, and

registered at Games Workshop, Willow Road, Lenton, Nottingham NG7 2WS.


As we can all see the Hierophant is no longer a phychic character and it has a 3++ invul now through wargear granted in the codex. Hope this helps you all.

This sould be in you make da call

Warp field was never a "psycher" ability in the first place. It has always been a passive always on ability. Why would you think it might be a psycher? As far as I can recall it has never had any kind of psychic ability.

barnowl wrote:
Warp field was never a "psycher" ability in the first place. It has always been a passive always on ability. Why would you think it might be a psycher? As far as I can recall it has never had any kind of psychic ability.

In the previous codex, Warp Field was a psychic ability that was 'always on', but it was still a psychic power. But back then it just provided a 5+ invulnerable save.

In the new codex, a Warp Field is not a psychic power, but now provides a 3+ Invulnerable save.

However, the Hierophant rules still say that the creature has the Warp Field 'psychic power' (which no longer exists).


So the response from Forgeworld is incorrect here if they are saying they are unwilling/unable to 'change' these rules. Because as we've seen from GW's 6th edition FAQs, when a special rule that no longer makes sense gets brought into a current rules set this does not automatically mean you 'fill the logic gaps' to make rule work...by default a rule that doesn't seem to have any use simply doesn't have any use and GW needs to make the effort to actually fix that problem in their FAQ before it does have clear RAW.

If you find anyone willing to play against a 3++ Hierophant, more power to you. The thing's monstrously powerful as it is.

With all the D weapons I'm used to seeing in Apoc, they tend to go down pretty quickly with only a 5++. But still, a 3++ is frightening.

 yakface wrote:

barnowl wrote:
Warp field was never a "psycher" ability in the first place. It has always been a passive always on ability. Why would you think it might be a psycher? As far as I can recall it has never had any kind of psychic ability.

In the previous codex, Warp Field was a psychic ability that was 'always on', but it was still a psychic power. But back then it just provided a 5+ invulnerable save.

In the new codex, a Warp Field is not a psychic power, but now provides a 3+ Invulnerable save.

However, the Hierophant rules still say that the creature has the Warp Field 'psychic power' (which no longer exists).


So the response from Forgeworld is incorrect here if they are saying they are unwilling/unable to 'change' these rules. Because as we've seen from GW's 6th edition FAQs, when a special rule that no longer makes sense gets brought into a current rules set this does not automatically mean you 'fill the logic gaps' to make rule work...by default a rule that doesn't seem to have any use simply doesn't have any use and GW needs to make the effort to actually fix that problem in their FAQ before it does have clear RAW.

While 4e codex did describe them as such, rules wise Tyranid "psychic" powers were wargear since you did not have to test for them. Were they effected by things like a psychic hood? Been long enough I don't recall, and have lost my old codex.

While 4e codex did describe them as such, rules wise Tyranid "psychic" powers were wargear since you did not have to test for them. Were they effected by things like a psychic hood? Been long enough I don't recall, and have lost my old codex.

IIRC Psychic hoods only worked when casting the power within it's range, so a power which is 'Always on' can't be stopped by one

barnowl wrote:

While 4e codex did describe them as such, rules wise Tyranid "psychic" powers were wargear since you did not have to test for them. Were they effected by things like a psychic hood? Been long enough I don't recall, and have lost my old codex.

As stated, psychic hoods only work against psychic tests, which the 4th Edition Warp Field did not require (as it was always on). But that did not change the fact that is was most certainly a psychic power, the same way that the Halrequin Veil of Tears is a psychic power despite being 'always on' and not requiring a psychic test either.

But that is besides the point...the Hierophant rules say that the model has the Warp Field psychic power. As there is no such thing as a Warp Field psychic power, making the logic leap to assume that the current Warp Field special rule is the 'same thing' despite the fact that it clearly isn't the same thing (its no longer a psychic power, and no longer a 5+ invulnerable save) *IS* a change in the rules.

So if FW wants to say that, yes, they're putting out an errata saying that the Warp Field psychic power is the same thing as the Warp Field special rule, then I'd be cool with that (although I'd think they're also insane if they didn't also alter the points cost of the unit to match), but saying that they aren't able to errata/FAQ GW studio rules (which I get) and then in the same breath basically making a rules change is not the way they should answer the question.


Instead, the answer should be:

We here at FW are unable to issue FAQs or Erratas for GW studio rules, so therefore you should direct your question to the studio regarding this issue as it is they who wrote the rules for the Hierophant in the Apocalypse rulebook.

Actually, the original Warp Field was a 2+/6++ save. A 5++ is already a big improvement for it.

What it boils down to is, RAW or no RAW, Apoc is a social game between you and your gaming group. If they all think it is unfair to play against the HBT with a 3++, then you really need to take that into consideration. Because a HBT with 3++ is 3-4x much tougher to kill and even though this is Apoc, it is well within their rights to not want to play against it if they can't even kill it. Just like if you take a Ferrari to a race where everyone is just running their normal, non-race cars. You may just be taking that race alone.

My suggestion is to negotiate with them. 5++ is a good starting point. Doesn't seem like they will agree to a 3++, so ask as a compromise a 4++ save for your beastie. Honestly, even the 5++ is pretty good already. If they are still reluctant, offer to bump up thethe cost of your beast. Maybe +100pts for a 4++ or +250pts for a 3++ and see what they say.

There are just too many gray areas in Apoc, which was written with 5th Edition in mind (and even then, there were a lot of gray areas). You really can't play Apoc fluidly without coming up with some houserules of your own.

Ya cause the imperium doesnt have vortex everything or the most access to str d weapons. Lets think about this guys really think about it. Forgeworld said thats the rules then guess what, thats the rules that should be used. I only made the post for those that dumped almost 400 into a n amazing model that now strikes fear into the imperium.


Anyways people who actually play nids; this iz the rule set that should be used. If you would like the official email then pm me and I will mass send it out.


Thanks

Gargantuan Creatures are already much better than Superheavy Vehicles with the exception of Warlord and Imperator Titans. The Hierophant is one of the best Apoc models in existance WITHOUT the 3++. It's simply not reasonable.

Its better than suoer heavies because it is suppose to be compared to a titan! Not a super heavy. Also it doesnt matter what you personally think is right. Forgeworld answered not only me but 3 others in my gaming community with this same answer. You guys are all about quoting ruoes but finally evidence of how you really are suppose to play this monster is right infront of you, you choose to ignore it. Well ruoes are rules no matter how you feel about them.

Gray1378 wrote:
Its better than suoer heavies because it is suppose to be compared to a titan! Not a super heavy. Also it doesnt matter what you personally think is right. Forgeworld answered not only me but 3 others in my gaming community with this same answer. You guys are all about quoting ruoes but finally evidence of how you really are suppose to play this monster is right infront of you, you choose to ignore it. Well ruoes are rules no matter how you feel about them.

Guess what? "Official" mail isn't rules because anyone can make them up. I totally got this mail from ForgeWorld that said my Titan has 142 Structure Points!

And, as I pointed out, Gargantuan Creatures as a whole are better than Superheavies except things on the scale of Warlord and Imperator Titans. This includes Titans like the Warhound, Reaver and the Eldar Titans.

Also, Warp Field only applies to Zoanthropes and the Doom of Malan'tai (because of the FAQ) so you're not even right RAW.

Not made upnif you are too scared to accept the truth than that sucks for you I guess. Just funny how you want to kick an army when its down when the truth is infront of you. Anyways nid players write forgeworld yourself or pm me, eithdr way you will get the same answer from people who know the rules.

I've been playing an apoc game with a friend and we just assumed that it had a 3++ due to warp field. It was a big target so it got taken down within a few turns but honestly, having the 3++ didn't seem to be too big of a deal. The other problem we had was whether or not it is a synapse creature or had to test for instinctive behavior. We just ran it as an independent creature (didn't need or give synapse) but if you guys have some thoughts on this, it would be very helpful as well

Gray1378 wrote:Not made upnif you are too scared to accept the truth than that sucks for you I guess. Just funny how you want to kick an army when its down when the truth is infront of you. Anyways nid players write forgeworld yourself or pm me, eithdr way you will get the same answer from people who know the rules.

I'm glad that you're happy with the email you received from Forgeworld, but remember that until someone at GW or FW actually publish such a ruling, it applies only to you and people who choose to play that way. Emails have never, and can never be official because there is literally no way to know if every person that emails the same question will get the same answer and even what status the person answering the emails within the company has.

For example, in the past when emailing GW different people have gotten different answers on the same question just because they were getting a response from a different person.

Worse still, I've literally gotten rulings from the CODEX AUTHOR before, both in person and via personal email only to find out later that when they actually went ahead and published the official FAQ answer it was the exact opposite...meaning either they changed their mind at some point or the author simply realized he was wrong with his original answer.

But the bigger point here you seem to keep ignoring: The email simply says that FW is not able to issue FAQs or Errata regarding GW studio publications. So his answer is NOT a FAQ, but rather his take on what the rules actually say...which is incorrect based on the RAW. The Hierophant rules say that the model has the Warp Field psychic power. As soon as you can show me where the Warp Field psychic power is in the current codex, then I'll let you use it with your Hierophant.

Hive Fleet Lazarus wrote:I've been playing an apoc game with a friend and we just assumed that it had a 3++ due to warp field. It was a big target so it got taken down within a few turns but honestly, having the 3++ didn't seem to be too big of a deal. The other problem we had was whether or not it is a synapse creature or had to test for instinctive behavior. We just ran it as an independent creature (didn't need or give synapse) but if you guys have some thoughts on this, it would be very helpful as well

Please tell me exactly what you guys had on the table that was able to take down 10 regenerating T9 Wounds with a 3++ save with ease?

Unless you were playing like a 40,000 point battle and focused everything you had on the table at the creature then I'm going to call complete BS on this claim.

The Hierophant, even without ANY invulnerable save is easily, easily the most durable model in the game. Strength D weapons do ONE wound to it. Fixed-wounding weapons (like poisoned weapons) only cause wounds on a 6+. There is literally NO WEAKNESS to this model at all, even with no invulnerable save at all.

A Hierophant with a 3++ save is essentially indestructible, especially as it is able to regenerate any wounds it does lose.

Gray1378 wrote:
Not made upnif you are too scared to accept the truth than that sucks for you I guess. Just funny how you want to kick an army when its down when the truth is infront of you. Anyways nid players write forgeworld yourself or pm me, eithdr way you will get the same answer from people who know the rules.

Truth? It is only the truth when it is published "officially" as a FAQ or on their website. Otherwise, it is just that customer service rep's intepretation of the rules. As Yakface said, even GW/FW employees are known to give different answers to the same questions. That is because the reps there are telling you the answer based on their own intepretations....which are really no different from our intepretations.

It is the general RAW consensus that the hierophant's Warp Field is not the same as the zoanthrope's WF. Don't believe us? Ask this question in YMDC to see what the rules gurus there say. But if you want to play it as 3++, that's fine. You don't need to convince us on the net, you only need to convince your own gaming group. No matter what the FW rep says, if your group doesn't agree with you, then they are not going to want to play against it. You need to make a compromise with them.

BTW, this is advice from someone who has not just 1 HBT, but 2 HBT's! And who runs it only with a 6++ invuln! It sucks because they will die in just 1 turn of shooting (sometimes 2) in our games of Apoc. My last game played, our opponent puts out something like 25+ Strength D blasts!!!

BTW, here is my last Apoc batrep:


30K Apocalypse - Tyranids vs the Imperium - The Big Boys Come Out to Play

 yakface wrote:

Gray1378 wrote:

Hive Fleet Lazarus wrote:I've been playing an apoc game with a friend and we just assumed that it had a 3++ due to warp field. It was a big target so it got taken down within a few turns but honestly, having the 3++ didn't seem to be too big of a deal. The other problem we had was whether or not it is a synapse creature or had to test for instinctive behavior. We just ran it as an independent creature (didn't need or give synapse) but if you guys have some thoughts on this, it would be very helpful as well

Please tell me exactly what you guys had on the table that was able to take down 10 regenerating T9 Wounds with a 3++ save with ease?

Unless you were playing like a 40,000 point battle and focused everything you had on the table at the creature then I'm going to call complete BS on this claim.

The Hierophant, even without ANY invulnerable save is easily, easily the most durable model in the game. Strength D weapons do ONE wound to it. Fixed-wounding weapons (like poisoned weapons) only cause wounds on a 6+. There is literally NO WEAKNESS to this model at all, even with no invulnerable save at all.

A Hierophant with a 3++ save is essentially indestructible, especially as it is able to regenerate any wounds it does lose.

he hit it with a vindicare shieldbreaker round to kill the invuln, then followed with several leman russes and the rest of the vindicares (about 8). I didn't have anything else close enough, so it really was the only target, not to mention it was already down to six wounds. I'm not complaining, the game has been fun and I'm still managing to hold my own but the biotitan, while nasty, is a massive target and the 3++ is still just one creature. Also yes, the game is about 40k each side

The shieldbreaker round doesn't work on the HBT because WF is not a wargear (same reason as to why it doesn't work against daemons). However, I supporse you can houserule that it does to balance out the 3++. Also, in 6E, it would need 6's to wound the HBT.

Then again, at 40K, it should die whether 3++ or not.

 jy2 wrote:
The shieldbreaker round doesn't work on the HBT because WF is not a wargear (same reason as to why it doesn't work against daemons). However, I supporse you can houserule that it does to balance out the 3++. Also, in 6E, it would need 6's to wound the HBT.

Then again, at 40K, it should die whether 3++ or not.

well, that answers a lot. It seemed a bit good to be true but I honestly didn't mind. the line of stuff that's about to hit his bunkers is going to trash him as is.

I don't care if it has a 6++, 5++ or 3++ honestly. My problem with it is the Grey Knights players have 3 Stormravens shoot all their mindstirke missiles at it and it dies immediately (Try scattering off it ). By RAW, if the warp field psychic power doesn't exist, is it still a psyker? That seems the odd part of the FW reply to me. It gains the great benefits of a psychic power but isn't a psyker?

Gray1378 wrote:
Not made upnif you are too scared to accept the truth than that sucks for you I guess. Just funny how you want to kick an army when its down when the truth is infront of you. Anyways nid players write forgeworld yourself or pm me, eithdr way you will get the same answer from people who know the rules.

A discussion is when two people offer points and counterpoints on various subjects; jdging by your "reply" you didn't even bother reading my post. Again: Warp Field, RAW, only works on Zoanthropes and the Doom of Malan'tai.

And "kick at an army when it's down"? Tyranids are amazing in Apocalypse. The Hierophant is IMO one of the top 5 Apocalypse units, together with things like Warlord and Imperator Titans and An'ggrath. The only weakness it has is Vortices and being charged by 9 Meganobz and Ghazghkull (seen that happen, not much remaining after ).

 grotblaster wrote:
I don't care if it has a 6++, 5++ or 3++ honestly. My problem with it is the Grey Knights players have 3 Stormravens shoot all their mindstirke missiles at it and it dies immediately (Try scattering off it ). By RAW, if the warp field psychic power doesn't exist, is it still a psyker? That seems the odd part of the FW reply to me. It gains the great benefits of a psychic power but isn't a psyker?

Well, I think given that the only psychic power that the model has is completely non-existent, then I personally would no longer play it as being a psyker. But really these rules desperately need to be FAQ'd to make sense anymore.

But regardless of whether there are any cool tricks like this to take down the Hierophant quickly is irrelevant. Every unit is always going to have some things that kill it quicker than others, but that doesn't change its overall durability.

The point is, the Hierophant, without ANY invulnerable save at all, is way, way, way more durable than any other Titan when comparing the relative points values. Giving it a 3++ just makes it so insanely better than any other titan equivalent that it is a joke.

I mean, the Eldar Revenant is 800 points for an AV12/12/10 titan with 3 structure points and a 4+ invulnerable save (provided it moves).

Is anyone seriously trying to say with a straight face that Hierophant should have a 3++ save to go along with its 10 T9 wounds that can regenerate for 1,250 points?

 grotblaster wrote:
I don't care if it has a 6++, 5++ or 3++ honestly. My problem with it is the Grey Knights players have 3 Stormravens shoot all their mindstirke missiles at it and it dies immediately (Try scattering off it ). By RAW, if the warp field psychic power doesn't exist, is it still a psyker? That seems the odd part of the FW reply to me. It gains the great benefits of a psychic power but isn't a psyker?

Although it is supposedly a "psyker", it's got no psychic powers and no warp charge. I would say that this really needs a FAQ and you should hash it out with your opponent before the game.

Well evidently I am not helping here. Just close the thread please. Have fun guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
JY2 always love your batreps. I thought the answer from Fw would be helpful to people is all. Didnt realize it would not be accepted.


Either way in my gaming groups this letter from FW is law now so the hierophant has a 3+ and not a phychic character.

Anyways like I asked. Please just close this thread.

Gray1378 wrote:
Well evidently I am not helping here. Just close the thread please. Have fun guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
JY2 always love your batreps. I thought the answer from Fw would be helpful to people is all. Didnt realize it would not be accepted.


Either way in my gaming groups this letter from FW is law now so the hierophant has a 3+ and not a phychic character.

Anyways like I asked. Please just close this thread.

Just make sure to point out that the Warp Field psychic Power only affects Zoanthropes and the Doom of Malan'tai...

Warp field also applies to the hierophant and this is accepted even here. Just seems to depend which version people take.

Gray1378 wrote:
Warp field also applies to the hierophant and this is accepted even here. Just seems to depend which version people take.

Sure, play it any way you want, but it's a house rule, which is my point.

Gray1378 wrote:
Warp field also applies to the hierophant and this is accepted even here. Just seems to depend which version people take.

Yeah, the point you're missing is that the current rules for Warp Field actually just say that they give a Zoanthrope a 3++ save. The actual rule itself specifies that this bonus is for Zoanthropes (and Zoanthropes alone). That's why the Tryanid FAQ had to clarify that the Doom of Malan'tai counts as being a Zoanthrope so that it actually benefits from its own Warp Field.

So technically, regardless of whether or not you assume the Hierophant has the Warp Field wargear, even if it does, it still does nothing for it, as it isn't a Zoanthrope.