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Hey mates, after browsing the army lists lately I have noticed how most IG players tend to take every variant of the Leman Russ, with the exception of the Exterminator. Any particular reason why? Because currently Im running a mechanized Inquisition "Storm Trooper/IG army" out of the GK codex w/Coteaz leading it, and with the vast majority of my Army being made up by those units, I plan to have 500 points of allies, and plan to get 500 points of Sisters, IG, and Space Marines to mix things up. Anyways, I was looking through the IG codex to fill out my allies and thought how a Leman Russ Exterminator w/Pask and 3x Heavy Bolters and a Heavy Stubber would complement my army very well, as I have a lot of Dakka in my list currently and the extra firepower is very welcomed. However, many IG players at my store say the Exterminator isnt worth it and that I should try to find points to run Pask in a Punisher, as it is a lot more effective at shooting things and will be S6, or a Vanquisher for the anti-tank ability. Now I know the Punisher is very popular as who doesn't like 20x shots every time you shoot it, however personally I like the idea of having a mobile S8 Autocannon running around, which to me seems like will be able to do more then a 20x shot, S6 Punisher Cannon. Any particular reason why I should or shouldnt take an Exterminator and if yes, how has yours done for you?

It is generally better to take a lrbt w/ plasma sponsons( [b]str7 ap2 blast or str8 ap3 large blast ordinance) imo.

The exterminator benefits over the LRBT of being able to take viable sponsons and hull guns. The TL autocannons on top are just icing on the cake. LRBT's and any other russ with an ord. weapon on top should be taken bare bones.

If you want the exterminator, a hull lascannon and multi meltas makes a good tank/heavy killer, although plasma sponsons have merits. Bolter boating is not a terrible option, but punisher would be better in that regard.

Firstly, yes, a punisher is better than an exterminator. That shouldn't be too surprising given that it's more expensive.

Secondly, if we're looking at cheaper russes, you basically have three options, the LRBT, the exterminator, and the vanquisher.

The LRBT is utter junk, being out-shot by the exterminator against everything but AV14 (which it's still pretty bad against), and clustered marines out in the open. This leaves the exterminator and the vanquisher. One of them gives you three autocannons worth of firepower, while the other gives you two lascannons worth of firepower.

Personally, I'd take two lascannons over three autocannons any day of the week. Pask does make the exterminator S8, which is kind of classy, but pask in a vanquisher with a lascannon seriously beats face. I mean, we're talking about an infinite range S9 meltagun and a S10 lascannon, at BS4. There's an awful lot that fears that.

 Ailaros wrote:


The LRBT is utter junk, being out-shot by the exterminator against everything but AV14 (which it's still pretty bad against), and clustered marines out in the open.

Sorry, but what? A str 8 AP 3 ordinance blast beats 4 autocannon shots any day of the week. Even if they spread well the battlecannon will hit three models, and the TL autocannons average 3 hits anyways. The difference is that the LRBT is ap3, and can ID toughness 4 models (bikers, anyone?)

Yes, you can take sponsons, and that helps, but by that point I think you'd be better served by making room to take a punisher.

Edit:

Pask in the vanquisher is literally hit-or-miss. You get two shots worth a ton of points, but first they have to hit, and then they have to get through an enemies cover save, so YMMV. I prefer pask in a bolter-boat punisher for maximum BS4, S6 dakka.

 kestril wrote:


Sorry, but what? A str 8 AP 3 ordinance blast beats 4 autocannon shots any day of the week. Even if they spread well the battlecannon will hit three models, and the TL autocannons average 3 hits anyways. The difference is that the LRBT is ap3, and can ID toughness 4 models (bikers, anyone?)

Sorry, I agree with Ailaros, the LRBT is pretty poop for a 1 shot splat cannon. Also bikers are T5...

Pask in the vanquisher is literally hit-or-miss. You get two shots worth a ton of points, but first they have to hit, and then they have to get through an enemies cover save, so YMMV. I prefer pask in a bolter-boat punisher for maximum BS4, S6 dakka.

And that differs from everything else how? The LRBT is hit-or-miss too, although unlike a paskquisher, it'll only hit 50% of the time with it's one shot.

I've never tried a punisher. Even though I don't use FW, the fact that a flier with BS4 TL punishers exists, for a fraction of the price stops me from using them.

Derp. They are T5

The difference is in the template. It may miss its target but scatter and do some damage. IIRC the large blast template has to scatter at least 3 inches to be completely off target, so that means a roll of a 6 on the scatter die, and that's if it doesn't hit, even then, you have to factor in the size of the enemy squad. It's fair to say that the LRBT is more that 50% accurate when it comes to hitting, even if you wound less models than you originally intended. It also has the potential to generate more than 4 wounds. The thing is lovely on deepstrikers.

See, I'm trying to find the exterminator's niche, and I just can't seem to find it. AC's don't do much, and I'd rather take a weapon that has it's niche rather than a general blah tank. I.E. LRBT kills space marines, the Vanquisher kills vehicles, Punisher: infantry, Demolisher: DeathStars, Executioner: Elite infantry-- I don't see what the exterminator does.

 kestril wrote:

See, I'm trying to find the exterminator's niche, and I just can't seem to find it. AC's don't do much, and I'd rather take a weapon that has it's niche rather than a general blah tank. I.E. LRBT kills space marines, the Vanquisher kills vehicles, Punisher: infantry, Demolisher: DeathStars, Executioner: Elite infantry-- I don't see what the exterminator does.

Actually, its the general blah tank for players who hate templates. The AutoCannon is the jack-of-all-trade weapon. Putting two twin-linked Autocannons on the Leman Russ chasis exacerbates the notion; depending on what you complement it with determines its effectiveness.

An Exterminator with Heavy Bolters (or Plasma Cannons) makes it a relatively cheap means of dealing with infantry. Take the same Exterminator and give it Multi-Melta Sponsons and Las Cannon, it becomes a vehicle hunter.

It's a cheap means of getting decent firepower in exchange for more expensive, harder hitting weapons.

Just take an Exocutioner with heavy bolters. It synergizes well at 36".With 9 S5 heavy bolter shots and x3 S7 ap2 blast plasma templates it eats squads alive. Ever since 6th and LRBT's made the change to being Heavy and not being able to fire their ord guns and sponsons at the same time i've been usin this beast. Just a suggestion. Personaly though as to your original question, yeah, i'd go with the Exterminators over any other variant save for the above mentioned Exocutioner. But I wouldnt put Pask in it, thats a bit too much points for a tank that probably wont kill 220 points worth of stuff before it gets popped.

I wouldn't say that the standard LRBT is worthless, if anything its probably the most overlooked tank after the Exterminator. S8, AP 3 will hurt pretty much everything there is so I can still see how it has its uses, and the large-blast template is an extra bonus.

Not a fan of the Vanquisher, as though its a nice gun, especially with Pask, it really is a hit-or-miss kind of tank, and plus I feel that it has a limited role at what it does.

Now the Exterminator and Punisher in my opinion are very flexible tanks, especially with Pask. The Punisher w/ S6 Heavy Bolters and a S6 Punisher Cannon can definitely lay the hurt on infantry, both heavy and light, and can take out light transports and even the occasional flyer. The Exterminator is the same, except its toted more towards popping vehicles with 12 Armor or higher w/S8 shots thanks to Pask, but can still hurt infantry. At this point my army has both anti-tank and infantry killing weapons in abundance, but the Exterminator w/Pask is a lot cheaper compared to Pask in a Punisher

 Rommel44 wrote:
I wouldn't say that the standard LRBT is worthless, if anything its probably the most overlooked tank after the Exterminator. S8, AP 3 will hurt pretty much everything there is so I can still see how it has its uses, and the large-blast template is an extra bonus.

Not a fan of the Vanquisher, as though its a nice gun, especially with Pask, it really is a hit-or-miss kind of tank, and plus I feel that it has a limited role at what it does.

Now the Exterminator and Punisher in my opinion are very flexible tanks, especially with Pask. The Punisher w/ S6 Heavy Bolters and a S6 Punisher Cannon can definitely lay the hurt on infantry, both heavy and light, and can take out light transports and even the occasional flyer. The Exterminator is the same, except its toted more towards popping vehicles with 12 Armor or higher w/S8 shots thanks to Pask, but can still hurt infantry. At this point my army has both anti-tank and infantry killing weapons in abundance, but the Exterminator w/Pask is a lot cheaper compared to Pask in a Punisher

The issue with the LRBT isn't the S8 gun. It's how unreliable it can be at doing.. anything. Sure, a single shot can wipe out half a marine squad but that's if it hits. A lot of the time it will scatter off it's mark. It requires a 4+ to crack the most common AV in the game which isn't easy with a single shot. It's like expecting a single lascannon to do anything. This used to be remedied by it's sponson/hull gun but then heavy happened. So, I can see why Ailaros think it's a piece of junk. Other russes can take effective sponson weapons or have better main guns. I love my demolisher and I think the punisher is sweet.

However, that being said the LRBT has something up on the other tanks: How dirt cheap it is. In most games, this isn't really a factor. In fact, it's only really a factor or really low or high point games. At those points, though, it's durability and decent cannon really shines. Having a wall of AV 14 with a long ranged cannon is great if you can make that wall big. Having an AV 14 where high powered weapons are hard to fit into a list is also great. For most games, though, it isn't worth taking.

There seems to be a bit of confusion going on in this thread. Pask does NOT give you S6 punisher rounds against everything, nor does he give the bonus if you moved. He MUST stay still, and the bonus only gives him +1 strength vs vehicles or reroll to wound against MC's. Keep this in mind. A tank using pask has to stay still at times to fire to full effect, unless you're shooting normal infantry, which you get no bonus of any kind against. EDIT: I could've sworn I saw someone in this thread say that kind of stuff, but looking back I can't find it. D'oh well, guess I'm going crazy.

As for tanks, the exterminator is your "I have no clue what I'll see" tank. It will always be able to kill something but it will never be amazing at it's job like a specialist tank would be.

The good news is almost every russ is viable in some way now, so what you should do is find the tank that fits your list the best, and go from there.

 kestril wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:


The LRBT is utter junk, being out-shot by the exterminator against everything but AV14 (which it's still pretty bad against), and clustered marines out in the open.

Sorry, but what? A str 8 AP 3 ordinance blast beats 4 autocannon shots any day of the week. Even if they spread well the battlecannon will hit three models, and the TL autocannons average 3 hits anyways. The difference is that the LRBT is ap3, and can ID toughness 4 models (bikers, anyone?)

Sorry, but bikers are T5 now... gone are the days of 4(5).

Both the Punisher and Exterminator are tanks that I would use in the Bolter Boat configuration.

In that sense, the Punisher math-hammers a little better, but IMO the range is a bit of an issue. 24" range main gun doesn't synergize with 36" hull and sponson weapons as well as a 48" main gun. Just my opinion here. I'm not a fan of something that has the same range as my lasguns, and a very poor AP.

If Russes were 4 HP I'd be more willing to commit them to the short-range fight. As it is, I'm not really too interested in driving 200 point tanks right into the Necron and Grey Knights range sweet-spot.

I've been getting some good mileage out of my executioners. Hull heavy flamer, sponson multimeltas and a pmhs. I use it as a Swiss army knife, where it always has a tool for the job. Granted one could easily sub out for a punisher, but I've found myself wanting those extra points.

What about the Demolisher?

The Exterminator makes a solid all-rounder with a hull lascannon and sponson heavy bolters. Enough AT to threaten any tank (even if it's not much against heavier tanks, it's *something*, and it's rather effective against AV10/11/12), while retaining a large number of shots with which to engage enemy infantry, and the range to strike out across the board.

Now, as a Heavy Support unit in an IG army, you'll likely want something more specialized with those HS slots, but it's not a bad tank, and if building an Armored Company, they make excellent "Troop" tanks.

 CaptainHonkey wrote:
What about the Demolisher?

I like it. People really overestimate the st 10 ap 2 blast, so it tends to soak up a lot of fire. If it survives the first wave of your opponent's AT, it can really do some damage.

I like the exterminator. I actually take it to replace AC's in my infantry squads. I run it with Plasma Sponsons and a hull HB. It is cheap, just as effective against hoards as the bolter boat abd better against MEQS, TEQS and monstrous creatures. Also, it's pretty nifty versus light vehicles AV 10, AV11 and AV 12.

ender502

I have become a fan of the exterminator even more now in 6th. I run a squad of two (two manticores fill up,the slots)' with heavy bolter sponsons and a las cannon. It might be a tie for the amount of flyers this duo has taken out as opposed to my quad gun. Everything on here has the chance to glance or better on all those pesky necron and ork flyers. 4 twin link strength 7 shots, single strength 9 and six strength 5. Bound to role some sixes in there then the penetrating shots. This twice.

Not saying it is the best option, but, the exterminator is a multi tool in the IG army. Light tanks/transports, flyers, and infantry.

kestril wrote:Yes, you can take sponsons, and that helps, but by that point I think you'd be better served by making room to take a punisher.

Sponsons are the point of russes now in a heavy world. You get the firepower for very cheap, and on a durable frame, and you can shoot them all even if you move.

If you're taking russes for the splat cannon, and are thus not taking sponsons, then there's no real point in taking russes. Just take artillery.

kestril wrote:Sorry, but what? A str 8 AP 3 ordinance blast beats 4 autocannon shots any day of the week.

Except they don't.

Let's look at AV13. The LRBT will hit it's target at roughly BS4 thanks to the new large blast rules. Of those times you hit, 1/6th glance, and 1/6th pen. Of the pens, 1/6th cause an explosion. Throw that all together, and you're looking at .22 HP stripped off per round of shooting, with a 1 in 56 chance of wrecking the vehicle outright.

Now look at the eradicator. It lands 3 hits on average. A sixth of them glance. That's .33 HP stripped off. To say that again, that's 50% more HP stripped off for the loss of a really insignificant chance to wreck the vehicle outright.

Go down the AV tree, and you find that the eradicator also does better. Look at monstrous creatures, and you see basically the same thing - the one-shot nature of the battlecannon seriously hamstringing it. Talk about hordes, and the exterminator is the clear winner unless those infantry models are packed in like sardines, which they won't be if there's a battlecannon on the other side of the board. The exterminator also beats out the battlecannon against terminators, whose larger sized bases make displacement a breeze, and that's before we even consider the fact that the battlecannon doesn't break terminator armor.

So, in the end, there are only two things that the battlecannon is better than an exterminator cannon. The first is AV14, which the russ can barely scratch while the exterminator literally can't hurt it. The other is clustered marines out in the open.

If you're not up against either of those two targets, the exterminator wins. The math shows so.

LRBTs are crappy now.

That's strange, because battle cannons are one of the things that give my BA nightmares. So.... I can expect to see not too many battle cannons then? I'd much rather face twin linked autocannons. They can't hit the homerun on my ASM like the battle cannon can.

Yeah, that's one of the annoying things I've found. Battlecannons only kill marines clustered in the open well... and it turns out that there is one army that winds up with marines clustered out in the open a lot...

I don't know if I'd bother with battlecannons just to handle BA players (like I sort of had to do hydras for DE skimmer spam in 5th ed), but I guess if there's a lot at your local meta...

That said, BA still die just as fast against melta spam...

If the battle cannon only has utility vs BA, I wouldn't use it. The BA are not that big of a threat to the IG due to generally poor model count.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus so many BA players take a super tiny army because they load up on toys. It really is a poor codex in my opinion, because its so hard to build a balanced list.

Well, it's not ONLY threatening to BA, it's just that that's the only time I can think of the battlecannon coming anywhere even within sniffing distance of being called a hard counter.

But yeah, it's not like you need them to handle BA either.

The regular russ still has a place in lists. You never take one, you take like 6, and make a wall of AV 14. Or 4 LRBT's and a couple of Demolishers to scare away things that get too close.

If you're not wanting to spam russes though, you should look into the more specialized variants. They're far more likely to do what you need.

EDIT: And in a world where many armies are going horde MEQ (at least in my area) The humble LRBT still has a very well defined purpose. It can still hurt armor, it can still clean up green tide and the like, it can still slap around MC's a bit, etc.

It's basically just like the exterminator. They're both cheap generalist tanks. One is a splat cannon with a 6 foot range, and the other is a weight of fire tank. Both have their place.

The question is what can 6 LRBTs do that 6 Exterminators can't? The answer is peel paint off of AV14 more, and are going to be a hard counter to marines armies that cluster out in the open.

Meanwhile, 6 exterminators are going to put some pretty serious hurt on mech and foot lists alike, and are going to be much better against fliers, and monstrous creatures, and terminators.

Or... eveything, basically.

I mean LRBT do turn 3+ armor into 5+ for most cover sources. I don't know the details of IG list building. I know they shoot me a lot and make me take lots of saves :(

 Ailaros wrote:
[

kestril wrote:Sorry, but what? A str 8 AP 3 ordinance blast beats 4 autocannon shots any day of the week.

Except they don't.

Let's look at AV13. The LRBT will hit it's target at roughly BS4 thanks to the new large blast rules. Of those times you hit, 1/6th glance, and 1/6th pen. Of the pens, 1/6th cause an explosion. Throw that all together, and you're looking at .22 HP stripped off per round of shooting, with a 1 in 56 chance of wrecking the vehicle outright.

Now look at the eradicator. It lands 3 hits on average. A sixth of them glance. That's .33 HP stripped off. To say that again, that's 50% more HP stripped off for the loss of a really insignificant chance to wreck the vehicle outright.

I should have clarified: Against infantry the battlecannon beats a TL autocannon any day of the week. I really don't like leaving anti-vehicle up to my tanks.
Tanks kill the infantry, the infantry kill the tanks, it's the cycle of the guard.

Go down the AV tree, and you find that the eradicator also does better. Look at monstrous creatures, and you see basically the same thing - the one-shot nature of the battlecannon seriously hamstringing it. Talk about hordes, and the exterminator is the clear winner unless those infantry models are packed in like sardines, which they won't be if there's a battlecannon on the other side of the board. The exterminator also beats out the battlecannon against terminators, whose larger sized bases make displacement a breeze, and that's before we even consider the fact that the battlecannon doesn't break terminator armor.

And the same against most MC's. Many MC's only have a 3+ save. The TL autocannon adverages 3 hits, and you fail a 3+ 1/3 of the time. I can see the exterminator being loaded with MM's or plasma cannons for a cheap gunboat, and wounds the autocannon gets would just be a bonus. It's more of a melta tank with autocannon sponsons, or a light executioner, but 4 TL autocannon shots are going to be as effective against most infantry targets as the battlecannon, that is, assuming perfect spacing by your opponent, and a bit better against MC's due to the autocannon's multi-wound potential.

As for displacement, some terminators deepstrike, marines deepstrike, stormtroopers deepstrike, ect, Displacement isn't that much of a breeze unless you want to forgo all your shooting and leave it up to a d6. Even with picture-perfect displacement, I've been able to fit three models under the large blast template, and that's a worst-case scenario, which is the average number of hits for the exterminator's two BS3, TL autocannons. On average, I can fit about 5 or 6 infantry models. And when it's really good, you can blast seven to ten.

So, in the end, there are only two things that the battlecannon is better than an exterminator cannon. The first is AV14, which the russ can barely scratch while the exterminator literally can't hurt it. The other is clustered marines out in the open.
If you're not up against either of those two targets, the exterminator wins. The math shows so.

I'll say that the TL autocannon is better at putting wounds on 2+ monstrous creatures, and better at anti-vehicle (although AC's arn't the bees-knees anymore when it comes to anti-tank.) Nevertheless, I should have clarified in the first post: Against infantry targets, the battlecannon is superior due to it's lower AP, and it's more-than-four-wounds potential. It's also better at slaying marines in cover and in the open. It's a bit hard to claim a 3+ cover save with the normal marine.

So, IMO, the question is: is the TL autocannon good enough to justify putting two sponsons on a high-cost tank. Now, plasma sponsons could be worth it, as the str 7 of the weapons work well together, and it gives some versatility against elite infantry. Heavy bolters sure, but you're paying a bit of a premium for those extra few kills that the Russ could claim anyways if it template clips one or two more models. MM's totally depend on your meta and how many vehicles you run across.

As I field 3 standard LRBT regularly here my experience using them:

Pro:
Long range
Only recently I deployed them on a table edge while shooting at those Long Fangs on the opposing table edge
Cheap
450 points for 3x AV14, it is just the cheapest of the LRs because the other cheap ones you have to use with sponsons
Durable
Goes with cheap. When you field 3+ LRs my experience is that alot of people just stop shooting at them.
Deadly to MEQ and AV10-13
Obvious

Contra:
Bad against Big Base
Recently it makes me angry when I hit only one terminator because of maximum spaced out models
Unreliable Weapon
With multi-shot units you can at least count to do some damage, but sometimes that BC just hits nothing

Basically I started IG because I like long range tanks. And it is working so far. My other army is CC CSM with vindicators and I just hated how I have to always go for the enemy because I can't shoot anybody past 24".
So you have to be careful when you go IG that you still have range superiority. So if you go for Plasma Vets and Demolishers only you might have problems against other guard or tau armys that just outgun you at long range.
More on topic:
I'd prefer Punisher with Pask versus an Exterminator. And I will be adding him to my 3 standard LRBT.
However this topic made me think about maybe adding 2 Exterminators instead. It would fit the LR wall concept better not having a too expensive target the opponent can concentrate on.