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I was playing a reasonably competitive Daemon list the other night and lost to a really horrible Ravenwing army with allied IG. My Daemons included Fateweaver, 14 Flamers and 21 Screamers - so not OTT Tzeentch spam, but still fairly nasty and it's been very competitive until now. The thing is, even if I had maxed my Flamers & Screamers, I would still have lost badly and I can't see how anything else would beat it either. Here's what I was facing:

Azrael
Librarian (Level 2 Psyker & Bike)
Ravenwing Command Squad (Banner of Devastation & Grenade Launcher)
4 x 6 Ravenwing Bikers (2 Multaguns) & Attack Bike (Multi-melta)
Primaris Psyker
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad (Commissar & Sergeant with Power Axes)
3 x Infantry Squad (Sergeant with Power Axe)
[1850 points]

The four Ravenwing squads were combat squaded, so eight units of three bikes plus four units of single attack bikes. The bikes within 6" of the command squad were shooting their boltguns as twin-linked salvo 4, then the command squad was turbo-boosting to get the other bikes within 6", then they were shooting as twin-linked salvo 4. So that's a total of 112 twin-linked bolter and 4 multi-melta shots every turn. They also have the flexibility of being able to do 80 twin-linked bolter, 8 melta and 4 multi-melta shots every turn instead, or some combination of the two.

The infantry squads blob up and are joined by Azrael who gives them all Furious charge and a 4+ invulnerable save. Plus the Primaris Psyker & Librarian for their various psykic boosts. Remember in addition to the independent characters, there's also five models with power axes in there, each with three attacks base.

Everything is spread out at maximum coherence with the Ravenwing Command Squad and independent characters properly bubble-wrapped against deep-striking Flamers.

There's no dedicated flyer defense, but anything exposing AV10 will get its hull points stripped by the weight of bolter-fire and for everything else there's still 8 melta & 4 multi-melta shots that will average 2 melta hits per turn snap-firing.

I don't think it's possible to beat this with a pure Daemon list. Helldrakes with Baleflamers, or lots of IG pie-plates if they get the first turn, would be useful, but bike bases are big enough that at maximum coherence they could probably minimize casualties until the turbo-boosting melta shots could take them out. And if the Banner of Devastation can survive 1-2 turns it's probably done enough damage that there's not enough left to make any difference.

Any advice on how to beat this with Daemons? I also have some CSM (none of the new models including Helldrakes though) and IG (currently just one Vendetta, one Manticore, one Chimera and some guardsmen) that I could use as allies.

Thanks.

hoboy that's a nasty list.

How did the game pan out?

ChaosDog wrote:The four Ravenwing squads were combat squaded, so eight units of three bikes plus four units of single attack bikes.

Forgive me for asking (I haven't looked at the Angel's Dex thoroughly yet), but don't the attack bikes need to be joined by a bike squad?

Other than that, it sounds pretty nasty for a Guard player. All that speed and firepower could certainly put a hurting on any Guardsmen. What I do notice is the severe lack of ranged weaponry, no armor, and the Command Squad seems to be the lynch pin to make the list effective.

Wipe out the the Command Squad to reduce the lists effectiveness, or abuse him with long ranged weapons.

While it's true that single pie plates can diminish using Coherency, Multiple Barrages, however, fare better the more a unit is spaced out. Manticores and a Griffon+Colossus Combo could definately put a hurting on the Command Squad, or smash some guardmen with impunity.

Other than that, the Exterminator Leman Russ is just screaming to fight against this list. GIve it Heavy Bolters and let it loose against the MSU spam. Setinels with AutoCannons or Multi-Lasers. Veterans in a Chimera with Plasma Guns would LOVE this list too.

Don't know what to say about the Guard Blob... Seems like a waste of a powerhouse HQ for... Guardsmen...

 Blaggard wrote:
hoboy that's a nasty list.

How did the game pan out?

Badly for the Daemons and I'm a veteran Daemon player. With a similar list at 1500 points I win ~95% of the time and got best daemon player at the most recent Throne of Skulls. We didn't have time to play everything out, but my army was broken by the end of turn 2 and I would probably have been tabled in turn 4-5.

 KplKeegan wrote:

ChaosDog wrote:The four Ravenwing squads were combat squaded, so eight units of three bikes plus four units of single attack bikes.

Forgive me for asking (I haven't looked at the Angel's Dex thoroughly yet), but don't the attack bikes need to be joined by a bike squad?

Not DA Bike squads. Attack bikes and Landspeeders are taken as 1 units of 1 model as an addon to the base (Biker) unit.

Oh boy that sounds awful.

all i can think of is to get into CC with the blob from around some LOS blocking terrain (to avoid some of the overwatch)
that way you can stop them from boltering you to death.

 KplKeegan wrote:

ChaosDog wrote:The four Ravenwing squads were combat squaded, so eight units of three bikes plus four units of single attack bikes.

Forgive me for asking (I haven't looked at the Angel's Dex thoroughly yet), but don't the attack bikes need to be joined by a bike squad?

Other than that, it sounds pretty nasty for a Guard player. All that speed and firepower could certainly put a hurting on any Guardsmen. What I do notice is the severe lack of ranged weaponry, no armor, and the Command Squad seems to be the lynch pin to make the list effective.

Wipe out the the Command Squad to reduce the lists effectiveness, or abuse him with long ranged weapons.

While it's true that single pie plates can diminish using Coherency, Multiple Barrages, however, fare better the more a unit is spaced out. Manticores and a Griffon+Colossus Combo could definately put a hurting on the Command Squad, or smash some guardmen with impunity.

Other than that, the Exterminator Leman Russ is just screaming to fight against this list. GIve it Heavy Bolters and let it loose against the MSU spam. Setinels with AutoCannons or Multi-Lasers. Veterans in a Chimera with Plasma Guns would LOVE this list too.

Don't know what to say about the Guard Blob... Seems like a waste of a powerhouse HQ for... Guardsmen...

The Dark Angel codex forces the Attack Bikes (and Landspeeders) to act as individual units regardless of whether or not the unit is combat-squaded, even though they are all purchased as a single unit and take up a single FOC slot. So 6 bikes plus 1 attack bike or 3 bikes plus 3 bikes plus 1 attack bike.

The guard blob puts out up to 108 FRFSRF shots, 15 S4 AP2 power axe attacks base, has 48 wounds and a 4++ save. Has Ld 10, furious charge & fearless from Azrael and whatever boosts it can get from the attached Psykers. It also bubble wraps the whole army against Flamer alpha strikes. In combat with Screamers, it can eat more than twice the number of points it takes in return. Very very nasty. It's only disadvantage is that its slow moving but with all those bike from the rest of the army, that's not really a problem.

 KplKeegan wrote:

ChaosDog wrote:The four Ravenwing squads were combat squaded, so eight units of three bikes plus four units of single attack bikes.

Forgive me for asking (I haven't looked at the Angel's Dex thoroughly yet), but don't the attack bikes need to be joined by a bike squad?

Other than that, it sounds pretty nasty for a Guard player. All that speed and firepower could certainly put a hurting on any Guardsmen. What I do notice is the severe lack of ranged weaponry, no armor, and the Command Squad seems to be the lynch pin to make the list effective.

Wipe out the the Command Squad to reduce the lists effectiveness, or abuse him with long ranged weapons.

While it's true that single pie plates can diminish using Coherency, Multiple Barrages, however, fare better the more a unit is spaced out. Manticores and a Griffon+Colossus Combo could definately put a hurting on the Command Squad, or smash some guardmen with impunity.

Other than that, the Exterminator Leman Russ is just screaming to fight against this list. GIve it Heavy Bolters and let it loose against the MSU spam. Setinels with AutoCannons or Multi-Lasers. Veterans in a Chimera with Plasma Guns would LOVE this list too.

Don't know what to say about the Guard Blob... Seems like a waste of a powerhouse HQ for... Guardsmen...

Not entirely sure what you were reading, but the OP was asking for help for his Codexaemons not an IG army. He said he could take IG allies with a Chimera and a Manticore, not swap his army for IG with Allied Daemons.

Probably the Best list out of the new codex I've seen so far, abusing the 6th ed ruleset and new DA rules to the nth degree! I'd say Daemons are pretty screwed against this list, with no way to really counter it. It's one of those rock-paper-scissors things, you being the scissors to his rock.

Best suggestion I have is get some ordnance barrage to try to snipe the command squad, since it's really only one model you need to kill (banner bearer) and get some heldrakes to make him waste firepower skywards and soul burn/flame his bikes to death.

Fateweaver should be able to drop the command bike squad by himself. Or him and a single other flying MC since vector strikes don't allow cover saves anymore. Once that single 3-man command squad is gone the army falls apart.

Honestly a standard CD list should be fine here, especially if it has winged MC's.

ChaosDog wrote:


Ravenwing Command Squad (Banner of Devastation & Grenade Launcher)

then the command squad was turbo-boosting to get the other bikes within 6",

You MUST kill the banner, it has a 3+ cover save when turbo boosting and is T5 and a normal 3+ but there are only 3 wounds. It is super vulnerable. Hellturkeys, Blastmasters, or old fashioned dakka will take it down. Also anything with ordinance can blow it out of the water.

One word: Flamers. Flamers DOMINATE bikes, since they strip the cover save and penetrate their armor. Hide them out of LOS when you drop them in, then try to move in for the kill. Another alternative is to use high-toughness models, since while infinite bolter and lasgun shots sounds scary, remember that they lose a lot of effectiveness against high toughness targets and FNP. Greater Daemons will be able to tank a lot of shots, especially if you find some way to boost their toughness, and if any of the nurgle units have FNP, well it effectively triples the amount of firepower necessary to take care of the squad.

RegalPhantom wrote:
One word: Flamers. Flamers DOMINATE bikes, since they strip the cover save and penetrate their armor. Hide them out of LOS when you drop them in, then try to move in for the kill. Another alternative is to use high-toughness models, since while infinite bolter and lasgun shots sounds scary, remember that they lose a lot of effectiveness against high toughness targets and FNP. Greater Daemons will be able to tank a lot of shots, especially if you find some way to boost their toughness, and if any of the nurgle units have FNP, well it effectively triples the amount of firepower necessary to take care of the squad.

Problem with the flamers is the giant fearless 4++ guard blob that is bubble wrapping away. Its going to nearly be impossible to mulch away as return fire will most likely own even a full flamer squad.

They have to stay within 6 inches of the bike with the banner, so any large blasts start solving the problem pretty quick.

As for daemons, I recommend daemon princes with winds of chaos. Simply land in , flame away, it kills bikers dead. Keep flying and keep flaming.