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As part of expanding out my marine army, I'm wondering what works better; a predator with all lascannons or a lascannon devastator squad?

To give it a bit of context my army atm is 2 tac squads in transports, 3 landspeeders, 2 MM attack bikes and a drop pod MM/DCCW dread (1000pts).

I've got a couple of fast MMs in there but they cant deal to everything and so I want some ranged anti-tank. I'm tossing between a lascannon predator for 165pts or 5 devastators with lascannons, in a TL lascannon razor for 305pts.

For a more economical solution, try auto/las predator.

I'm not really crazy about either for codex marines. Las is just overpriced on everything, especially when compared to newer codices (a tri-las predator costs DA 140 points and 5 Devs with 4 Lascannons and a Las Razorback is 225). An Auto-Las pred (Predator with an Autocannon and 2 Lascannons) might be your best bet, but perhaps other non-las alternatives, such as drop-pod sternguard with combi-meltas, might be more effective.

Lascannons are often well worth it. They can engage many dangerous targets from afar. Drop pod sternguard are a one-shot solution. Some games, the predator fires for the whole game. The older codicies just have to cough up more, that's all. Welcome to GW.

I would go with an Auto/las Pred. I use two myself and love them. 60 points for a single TL lascannon shot is insanely overpriced.

Since your army has alot of movement to it, I suggest the Predator. You want to try and keep that style of play throughout your army so it forms a better cohesive force.

I like the idea of the auto/las predator, had never really considered it before as I didn't think you would want to mix them. But on giving it some though it sounds good, plus the +45pts for the TL turret is a bit of a turn off...

I would prefer to stay away from the sternguards as I've already got a drop pod dread. Dont want to many 1 hit wonders and the attack bikes are there as well.
The devs in a razor seemed a bit pricey but I had thought you have to pay for what you get. But considering how cheap the DAs get it for? I'll pass on those now...

So to take it up to 1500pts, I might go for 2 auto/las predators and another tac rhino.
The only beef I had with the autocannon, is that it felt a bit pricey for just one autocannon. Then you look at IG and they're practically as cheap as dirt. But I guess you cant compare between the two.

Cheers for all the responses

Auto/las is a bit mixed, but all weapons are 48".

It is a bit mixed, but it is the most cost effective option for C:SM. It means it can threaten light and medium vehicles and be justified, while all las preds are wasted shots on light armour. DA are lucky now that we get an all las pred for 140.

It's not wasted fire if said light armor is carrying a lethal squad that you want to strand on the other side of the board. When you want to strand a squad: lascannon, accept no substitutes.

I agree that an all lascannon predator would be preferable but the cost difference doesn't justify it IMO.

The autocannon, sponson lascannon predator goes for 120pts. The TL lascannon, sponson lascannon is 165pts. 45pts for a TL lascannon to replace an autocannon is not worth it, especially when you look at the razorback where its only 35pts to replace heavy bolters.

Before I hadn't really considered mixing the two. But now when I think of it with what else I'm fielding I think it would work well. I probably wont be shooting AV14 with lascannons as I have multi-meltas, so they will probably be shooting mid-range armour most of the time which the autocannon can touch as well. Though if an all las pred was the cost of a DA one, I would take it.

Auto/las predator for sure, unless you're playing Codex: Dark Angels or Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

I'd go with lascannon pred.

Unlike everything that's not a pred, you get AV13, which makes it better than anything shy of a land raider for durability. Plus, you even get to move and shoot without snap firing, unlike devs.

As for the pred armament, yeah, it's expensive to run it with the lascannons, but you're looking at three lascannon hits per turn, most of the times you shoot it. That's insane. Shop around for that kind of killing power, much less that kind of killing power on a durable AV13 frame, and there isn't much that matches it.

In this case, you get what you pay for. If you pay a few points for junk, all you get is junk. If you pay a bunch of points for quality, you actually kill stuff.

Ahh well I still think an autocannon's reasonable, but yes an all las pred would be nice, just not 165pts nice. I guess a new marine codex will come out in 6th as they seem to spawn like 'gaunts and hopefully that will match the DAs one. Then its all las for sure.
Looking back over the last 3 codices the lascannon predator has varied in points a bit, the 2 before the current one it was 145pts, its now 165pts and in the new DA codex 140. Just have to wait and see.

rahxephon wrote:yes an all las pred would be nice, just not 165pts nice.

Seriously, value shop. In order to get 3 lascannon hits per turn, you've got to spend 210 points on guard heavy weapons squads, and they have nowhere NEAR the durability. Guard can also take a lascannon/multimelta leman russ, but that costs 200 points, and has less range. Meanwhile, several armies don't even HAVE an analogous option.

Don't let the sticker price shock you. It's a real gem.

I actually have to back Ailaros up on this -- the new CSM and DA predators really are a nice deal. They'll average 2.22 lascannon hits/turn. The only thing that's more cost effective than that is a Vendetta (2.25 hits/turn), and the price is certainly comparable.

Of course, the Vendetta has a slew of other advantages, but it's rare to see another similarly priced unit even come close to matching its firepower.

Problem with the auto/las is what is a valid target for both weapons? You want to shoot autocannons at light armour and lascannons at heavier stuff/terminators, and the pred doesn't get split fire like a landraider. If you go lascannons then you need to go all in.

I tend to run mine with autocannon/HB sponsons as it's cheap, sturdy and kills troops, but I mainly use bikes as troops so have plenty of fast melta elsewhere in my list for killing tanks. I can be in melta range T2 without difficulty so have less of a need for lascannons.

If Dev squads had relentless then maybe, but otherwise they are expensive compared to everyone else's versions with no extra abilities. Having to sit behind an ADL to make them useful means points are better spent elsewhere. Decent piece of scenry and the enmy can screen a lot of targets from the Dev squad. Their only real purpose is as a unit that can take a drop-pod but won't use it so you can get that 3rd/5th drop-pod in the army.

Auto/Las works very nicely up to light armour, and at a pinch will still potentially threaten up to AV13 -- it's pretty versatile. Plus, sure, ACs aren't great against termies, but it's still two more 2+ armour saves they have to make, and volume of fire is generally more effective at wiping out terminators than anything else is.

Hmmm, now I'm getting mixed ideas between the two. I guess I'll just have to play test them.
Other than when I go to my flgs my main opponent is DE, I imagine in that situation the autocannon would work okay, but in most situations it probably wouldn't pull it's weight in amongst the lascannons. I'll scrounge around and see what I could ditch in my current list to make way for that final TL lascannon.
I've never actually had an autocannon in my marines army as I've felt they're always out of place and work better in guard armies where you can actually field a decent number. And yes I do agree on the problem of the two having different targets.

Volume of fire does work on terminators, but that's when you're using lasguns or something. Between a 1shot lascannon and a 2 shot autocannon, the lascannon would be more reliable at killing terminators I think.

If the price came down, I might field the all las pred. But 45 points is too much. For 50 points I can have a MM attack bike rolling around killing hard targets while the pred pops transports. Fast melta is my anti tank of choice, not LCs.

And if I'm going to spend that much on a tank, I start eyeing my Land Raider, who doesn't see as much play as I'd like.

In my humble opinion, there are only two preds I consider. The autocannon in the turret, with your choice of sponsons. If your list needs anti hordes, dakka auto/HB. Popping light and medium armor is a job for the auto/las. If you are concerned with AV14, your points would be better spent on 3 MM attck bikes, a pair of speeders, or something else comparable.

 rahxephon wrote:
Hmmm, now I'm getting mixed ideas between the two. I guess I'll just have to play test them.
Other than when I go to my flgs my main opponent is DE, I imagine in that situation the autocannon would work okay, but in most situations it probably wouldn't pull it's weight in amongst the lascannons. I'll scrounge around and see what I could ditch in my current list to make way for that final TL lascannon.
I've never actually had an autocannon in my marines army as I've felt they're always out of place and work better in guard armies where you can actually field a decent number. And yes I do agree on the problem of the two having different targets.

Volume of fire does work on terminators, but that's when you're using lasguns or something. Between a 1shot lascannon and a 2 shot autocannon, the lascannon would be more reliable at killing terminators I think.

OMG seriously? Take a dakka pred, 85 pts for 8 shots that will destroy light armor and infantry. But other wise, simply magnetize your tanks and play test at your store and see what is most worth it for you and your meta. All this aside, a trip las canon pred is terrifyingly lethal and though expensive compared to the newer codexes is still worth it IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nevelon wrote:
If the price came down, I might field the all las pred. But 45 points is too much. For 50 points I can have a MM attack bike rolling around killing hard targets while the pred pops transports. Fast melta is my anti tank of choice, not LCs.

And if I'm going to spend that much on a tank, I start eyeing my Land Raider, who doesn't see as much play as I'd like.

In my humble opinion, there are only two preds I consider. The autocannon in the turret, with your choice of sponsons. If your list needs anti hordes, dakka auto/HB. Popping light and medium armor is a job for the auto/las. If you are concerned with AV14, your points would be better spent on 3 MM attck bikes, a pair of speeders, or something else comparable.

Exactly this, I find the best uses out of C:SM heavy section is AI. TF canons dakka preds and vindis are amazing. Use fast attack and elites to bash high armor targets.

 Nevelon wrote:
And if I'm going to spend that much on a tank, I start eyeing my Land Raider, who doesn't see as much play as I'd like.

If your really worried about helldrakes, land raiders are a great way to ignore the problem.

preds. lascannons are too expensive on dev squads and such little manouverability

Have you thought about using Sternguard as an option to get some lascannons in your army? They are half the price of a dev lascannon and the bolter marines have some decent options to support them as well. I run two ten man sternguard squads, combat squad both of them. Half in razorbacks and half with 2 lascannons each sitting in the back. Just a thought...

 Nevelon wrote:
For 50 points I can have a MM attack bike rolling around killing hard targets while the pred pops transports.

^^^ that was sort of what I was feeling before. I've already got a couple of MM attack bikes in there for hard targets. Its just that they cant get to everything so I was wanting to add some ranged anti tank that'd be dealing more to mid range armour, and that extra lascannon would be a nice insurance policy.

I'll see how the two combinations work out. If I find I'm lacking a bit in AT, could always convert some of my landspeeders from AI to AT.

For sternguard, I'm pretty sure they actually work out cheaper than devs when I look at them. With the razor back its still slightly more than a predator, but in some situations I can see them being more useful. One of the main things for me though is that with the rest of my army being quite mobile, its nice the have a predator that can move and not have to snapfire.

If your looking at all lascannon devs then why not just use rapiers from FW? Sure you lose 12" of range but for 30 points less you get 3 twin-linked ordnance shots and some t7 wounds to boot.

Seems like if your wanting stationary anti-armour then that's just plain better.

Well as far as stationary anti armour goes, I would prefer it to have at least some mobility hence the devs were originally in a razorback. I'm not so familiar with a lot of FW models, although I've got no qualms about people using them would prefer to remain within the bounds of the vanilla SM codex. From what I gather though, the rapier is 3 TL lascannon shots that are ordnance at 36". I can see that the ordnance would help but 36" seems a bit short for something that is supposed to be stationary most of the time.