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OK, another thread where I do not understand IG.

What special weapons go in which squads? Are special weapon squads of any sort worth it? What the hell I'm going to do with all these flamers and grenade launchers?

Number 1 rule...do NOT throw away anything!!

Flamers: are great when you take 4 of them in a PCS and slap them into a chimera.

Greanade launchers...well, they kinda such. I am not much of a fan of single shot weapons on a BS3 model.

Melta: I'd put these in the hands of BS4 models like CCS, storm troopers or veterans.If you do that make sure they have a way to move forward and attack. They can't be allowed to sit with their weapons. I know some like them as a stand off weapon in IS to give them a credible threat versus TEQ's and other nasty things that will want to assault them. Not quite my style.

Plasma: 2 shots are certainly better than one for a BS3 model. That being said, they are the best option for TEQ and MEQ hunting by vets and storm troopers. Again, make sure these guys are mobile.

ender502

Yeah, ok, makes sense. But what weapons I give to normal infantry squads? Plasma or grenade launcher seem to make most sense as they have longer range.

Plasma are of limitted worth as they have a habit of blowing up. The last guard game I played, a vet squad and CCS both had to take leaderships for Gets Hot! casualties, and both fled off the board. Then I remembered why I don't take plasma.

So I'd say stick with melta and get your anti MEQ elsewhere.

But I want my infantry squads stay hell away from enemies and shoot. Short range of melta doesn't really go with that...

I am a fan of plasma but it has to be admitted that they will not get a lot of shots off because of the "gets hot" rule... still love em versus TEQ's though.

It's always a hard call. The GL has the range you are looking for but is generaly useless. The melta is pricier but great against a limited number of targets (to maximize its greatest potential).

ender502

I get GL sucks against marines, but wouldn't it be rather decent against other IG, Eldar, Tau or even Orks?

 Crimson wrote:
I get GL sucks against marines, but wouldn't it be rather decent against other IG, Eldar, Tau or even Orks?

It'd be ok against those, but the PG is still better against them, and other targets. The fact that the GL isn't awful against something isn't an argument for it.

 Griddlelol wrote:


It'd be ok against those, but the PG is still better against them, and other targets. The fact that the GL isn't awful against something isn't an argument for it.

Of course plasma is more expensive and can explode. But yeah, still probably worth it.

So this seems like plasma is the weapon for infantry squads, right? Or how are sniper rifles? it seems it would compliment nicely anti-infantry squad with an autocannon.

I'd steer clear of snipers. They're 5pts of nothing. If you're paying for an upgrade, make sure it does something. There's no point in putting 5pts on a units price for a weapon that's barely better than a lasgun.

Plasma and melta are the way to go. I usually lean towards the melta side. Only 18" threat range, but when it hits, it hits hard. It also scares LRs away from getting near that unit.
Plasmas are great, no guts no glory. It's 15pts with a downside for a reason!

 BryllCream wrote:
Plasma are of limitted worth as they have a habit of blowing up. The last guard game I played, a vet squad and CCS both had to take leaderships for Gets Hot! casualties, and both fled off the board. Then I remembered why I don't take plasma.

So I'd say stick with melta and get your anti MEQ elsewhere.

On the other hand, I don't remember the last time I had more than a couple of overheats in a game and I use probably 12-18 plasma guns in most of my lists. I must be siphoning away all of your luck.

The best thing to use the grenade launcher for is hunting light vehicles, but there are better things really.

Also r3garding melta, for infantry squads don't view it as something you need to focus on to get your squad closer to the enemy, view them as something that lets the infantry unit project a 12-18" zone of control around themselves that your opponent will be less willing to run their vehicles into. Perfect for garrisoning objectives and babysitting other important units.

I agree with sticking a bunch of flamers in a PCS. I also go for the extra expense to get the heavy flamer in ther as well. I think the slightly better stats are worth the cost on what is otherwise a pretty cheap unit.

Okay. I was planning to stick my flamers to my PLC, so I'm glad this is a viable tactic.

How about special weapon squads? Are they any good and if yes, in what configuration?

I've had lots of success with special weapons squads, they are usually flying in my Vendettas (depending on how your gaming group reads the rules/faq). One is 3 meltas, one is 3 flamers. They do well with Grav Chute then shooting.

I take grenade launchers for their low cost versatility. Sure Plasma does it better ...

When your Saturating targets with Las ... for 5 points you could do a Str 6 Shot or a Str 3 Blast. The Shot is good for MC may even Vehicles. And the Blast is good for wound saturation ... my IG now can hit 3+ targets with his las gun woot!

Get 2 of them instead of a Plasma Gun i saved what? 20 points?

Tyrs13 wrote:


When your Saturating targets with Las ... for 5 points you could do a Str 6 Shot or a Str 3 Blast. The Shot is good for MC may even Vehicles. And the Blast is good for wound saturation ... my IG now can hit 3+ targets with his las gun woot!

The problem is that GLs aren't good against MCs. Wounding on 4+, and then they get a 2+ save. That's pretty pathetic. Also to any one who knows how to disperse, you'll be lucky (since scatter is pretty high) to hit more than 1 with the blast. Lasguns are better, if not equivalent at dealing with green tide, and that's saying something. When you take into account orders, the lasgun is almost always better.

There's no denying that the GL can potentially damage a lot of things, it's just it's terrible at all the things it can do, and the points you saved over the PG don't make themselves back.

Lasgun shooting HT 24": 0.01 wounds.
GL shooting a Hive Tyrant 24": 0.04 wounds
PG shooting a Hive Tyrant 24": 0.34 wounds Notice how it's almost nine times better, while only being three times the cost. When you get to 12", the PG doubles in efficacy at killing MCs. Really the argument that GLs are good against MCs is false, and demonstrably wrong. They're awful, just look at the comparison to the lasgun.

Then look at MEQ: GL: 0.15
PG: 0.44, almost 3 times better, which is what you'd expect, but once those MEQ are within 12" it's drastically in favor of the PG again.

I won't go into vehicles, but the +1 str means a lot, so does the -1 ap.


Edit: To op's second question concerning SWS. They're decent. My local group won't let me reserve part of a platoon, so I don't use them. I also feel that for every role a SWS can do, a vet squad is better by quite a long way. When I did take them Flamers were pretty cool, so were 2 flamers and a demo-charge. Sort of like a less accurate, scoring Marbo.

I'm convinced. No grenade launchers.

 Crimson wrote:
But I want my infantry squads stay hell away from enemies and shoot. Short range of melta doesn't really go with that...

If you're playing guard, the enemy is going to be running into your infantry's face. If they're not running into your infantry, they're running into your tanks/artillery...and that is a lot worse.

If you outfit your vets with meltas, the enemy know full well that anything with an armour value that comes anywhere near them will die horribly. This is tactically important as it allows mech vets to have a ~12" area of effect, and use them to pin down the enemy's assault while your big hitters kill them off.

Plasma gun has a 1/6*2/3 chance of killing your own guy, that's 1/9. Double tap it for 2/9. If three in a unit are firing there's a good chance that one or two will die. Now for the rest of the game that squad is utterly useless.

And this for a weapon that's alright against MEQ in the open. They'll bounce off enemy armour and stormsheilds, and run a constant risk of blowing up and triggering a morale check. The only real reason to take plasmas if if you're expecting to fight against lots of unmeched terminators without stormshields.

There are only two special weapons available to the imperial guard, meltaguns, and junk. If you want junk, then just take whatever, if you want a real weapon, take a meltagun.

You may have heard about plasma guns, a fictitious weapon that gets twice as many shots, but a meltagun is S8, Ap1, and sometimes +D6s, which makes it much, much better against vehicles, and S8 means instant death on most things. And they're cheaper, and they don't accidentally kill you when you shoot them.

Meltas and plasma for vet squads. The BS 3 helps them a lot. Put these guys in chimeras or valks.

Snipers are okay in a vet squad. Don't over do it. I have run a vet squad with Harker, sniper x3, and heavy bolter team. These guys sit on an objective or harass other units.

Flamers. Best put these to use with infantry squads and pcs. Wall f death is good.

CCS are good for plasmas and then inside a chimera. Only other option is for a static CCS is las cannon and maybe sniper rifles.

Las cannons and auto cannons for infantry squads.

Just my opinions.

 Ailaros wrote:
You may have heard about plasma guns, a fictitious weapon that gets twice as many shots, but a meltagun is S8, Ap1, and sometimes +D6s, which makes it much, much better against vehicles, and S8 means instant death on most things. And they're cheaper, and they don't accidentally kill you when you shoot them.

Let's not forget about twice the range as well, so really three times (or more) as many shots over a full game. Against many common targets (MCs, MEQs that don't have two wounds) plasma is much more effective than melta, so your list should contain a balance between plasma and melta depending on the anti-tank/anti-infantry options elsewhere in your list.

Or of course you could just throw out everything we've learned in 6th edition and go back to 5th edition and mindless "OMG MELTA IS THE BEST GIVE ME MOAR OF IT EVERYWHERE!!!!!" spam.

 martin74 wrote:
Snipers are okay in a vet squad. Don't over do it. I have run a vet squad with Harker, sniper x3, and heavy bolter team. These guys sit on an objective or harass other units.

Why would you want to waste a unit on harassing a target when you can just spend those points on killing the target?

Flamers. Best put these to use with infantry squads and pcs. Wall f death is good.

Wall of death is a gimmick that rarely matters against any unit that cares about charging you. Flamers go in PCS because they're cheap and you can throw them out of a Vendetta without worrying too much about losing the squad. It's not the best unit ever, but it's probably the best thing that you can do with the otherwise-worthless PCS you have to take to get the good units in a platoon.

Peregrine wrote:Let's not forget about twice the range as well, so really three times (or more) as many shots over a full game.

Firstly, really, the plasma is getting to shoot 4 times to the meltaguns once? It's a 12" difference, not the entire board distance. All I take is melta and I regularly start getting meltagun shots off on turn 2, and CERTAINLY start pounding on stuff by turn 3. I guess if your opponent only brought a gunline, then this would be more of a problem, but if your opponents only bring gunlines then plasma isn't going to be of much serious use anyways.

Secondly, a sniper rifle has a 50% longer range than a plasma gun. A grenade launcher has the same range as a plasma gun. Both of these weapons are junk, though, because range is far from the only thing you need to consider when choosing a weapon. When your melta hedge starts picking fliers out of the sky and IDing paladins, and taking down barge lords before they eat your army whole, and a myriad of things that melta can do that plasma can't, then you realise that you should have just taken melta in the first place.

Because it's the only properly good guard special weapon.

I am not anti-melta for IS..but I wonder, how many dedicated assault units have an assault range of 12? I'd think most dedicated assault units will be able to avoid the meltas's range.

I think the melta is nice but really only effective against charging units that are too slow to avoid them or as an attacking weapon on vets/storm troopers.

The 4-1 shot difference works but only at a precise interval...
24" range = 1 plasma and no melta
18" range = 1 plasma and no melta
12" range = 2 x plasma and 1 melta shot
Charge

Though that is true it ignores running and faster units. So, it may not be the most accurate way to explain the shot difference. In reality a cagey opponent will probably only get 2 shots of plasma coming at them (1 in the 24 - 18 inch range and 1 in the 18 to 12 inch range) before charging and probably no melta shots at all.

ender502

 Ailaros wrote:
Firstly, really, the plasma is getting to shoot 4 times to the meltaguns once?

And it has twice as many shots when it does shoot. It's not complicated:

Turn 1: Melta is out of range, plasma fires once.
Turn 2: Both are within 12", melta fires once, plasma fires twice.

At this point in the game the plasma gun has fired 3x as many shots as the melta gun. If we have another turn at outside 12" the plasma gun goes up to a 4:1 ratio, if we're still inside 12" it goes down a bit to 5:2. And given the fact that things like plasma/melta veteran squads tend to be a priority target it's not exactly surprising when you only get 2-3 turns of shooting. Over that critical 2-3 turns melta gets out-shot by a huge margin.

Secondly, a sniper rifle has a 50% longer range than a plasma gun. A grenade launcher has the same range as a plasma gun. Both of these weapons are junk, though, because range is far from the only thing you need to consider when choosing a weapon.

How could you possibly read that post and think that range is the only advantage I'm claiming? If we ignore this absurd "range only" strawman the reason plasma is good and snipers/GLs are worthless is because plasma has twice as many shots, wounds on a 2+, and always has AP 2.

When your melta hedge starts picking fliers out of the sky and IDing paladins, and taking down barge lords before they eat your army whole, and a myriad of things that melta can do that plasma can't, then you realise that you should have just taken melta in the first place.

Please stop and read again. I said that melta is also good, and that the ideal list is a mix of the two. Please don't act like "take plasma" means "never take melta and lose all of the advantages it has".

 Ailaros wrote:

Secondly, a sniper rifle has a 50% longer range than a plasma gun. A grenade launcher has the same range as a plasma gun. Both of these weapons are junk, though, because range is far from the only thing you need to consider when choosing a weapon. When your melta hedge starts picking fliers out of the sky and IDing paladins, and taking down barge lords before they eat your army whole, and a myriad of things that melta can do that plasma can't, then you realise that you should have just taken melta in the first place.

Because it's the only properly good guard special weapon.

Whoah. You aren't actually suggesting that a 12" range weapon is the best IG SW, right?

Let alone suggesting its because it "picks flyers out of the sky". Anytime your Meltaguns can shoot, Plasma can shoot twice. Think about that. Against MEQ, TEQ, FirewarriorEQ, EldarEQ, GEQ, BoyEQ, et cetera, Plasma are superior. Melta are easy to avoid, furthermore. Unless your vehicle is a Banewolf, it will be happy to give your melta an 18" berth. The same cannot be said for Plasma's 30" effective range.

Melta is important in an IG list, but it is not the only weapon to take. Not by a long shot. It is a dedicated anti-tank weapon, and should be taken by dedicated anti-tank vets/stormtroopers.

 Crimson wrote:
OK, another thread where I do not understand IG.

What special weapons go in which squads? Are special weapon squads of any sort worth it? What the hell I'm going to do with all these flamers and grenade launchers?

Platoon Command Squads are great Flame caddies. Drop them from Vendettas and blister someones arse with em.

Grenade Launchers are nice. STR 6 or a STR 3 blast. en masse they can cause some damage to light vehicles. Cheap way to beat up on Rhino hulls, from an otherwise throw away unit.

No one puts Snipers in their Platoon Commands and small units like that but it's never a bad idea to have some precision shot going on.

Plasma is easily the best overall weapon for those cheesballs to wave around.

 Jancoran wrote:
en masse they can cause some damage to light vehicles.

Only if by "en masse" you mean "waste your whole army on GLs to kill a single Rhino". One shot with AP 4 and 6s to pen even a Rhino is a joke as an anti-tank weapon.

Cheap way to beat up on Rhino hulls, from an otherwise throw away unit.

Just to highlight how worthless GLs are: a 4x GL PCS inflicts fewer average pens against a Rhino (.333) than a 2x melta PCS (.5), even outside of 6". And the melta is AP 1 vs. the GL's AP 4, which makes the chances of killing that Rhino even more one-sided.

And of course if you don't mind spending an extra 10 points for a 4x melta PCS then the GLs don't even come close.

No one puts Snipers in their Platoon Commands and small units like that but it's never a bad idea to have some precision shot going on.

Of course it's a bad idea. Instead of wasting points on screwing around with precision shots (1/12 of your wounds, and only 1/36 of your wounds are precision and don't just bounce off armor saves) just spend those points on real guns and kill the entire target unit.

Everyone has a different preference for the melta vs plasma debate, and they can get as heated as the autocannon vs lascannon discussions.

It basically boils down to if you want that one heckuva shot that'll instagib just about anything it hits (melta) or more shots at long range wearing the enemy down (plasma) They're different weapons built for different jobs, and neither weapon beats the other 100% of the time. Plasma is a heck of a lot nastier against MC's for example, but Meltas are the only weapon cracking AV 14, etc. A good mix of the two tends to be best, but most people pick one weapon and then sprinkle in a few of the other (I.E. a truckload of meltas with a few plasma here and there)

I've used both in the past, but I always find myself drifting back to meltas, personally. Granted, most of the time these are going in typical line squads with platoons, stormtroopers, or vets, so I have ways of getting my meltaguns where I need them. Other people like to set up large blobs with plasma and lascannons and just rake everything in site with a torrent of AP 2, or have a ton of plasmavets in chimeras and just light up anything that's stupid enough to try and get close to your tanks.

Another way to look at them is offensive vs defense. For me, meltas are as much a defensive weapon as an offensive one. I used to refer to my infantry as a line of pikemen, the meltaguns providing a good deterrent for enemy units, while having the bodies to keep them alive. I always used plasma in an offensive manner, since there's' a good chance of the guys killing themselves, I'd get a squad up close and just hammer a target with plasma, consequences be damned.

What you need to do is proxy both, and see which weapon fits your mentality best. If your opponent gets all whiny about all your GL's being melta guns, just tell him "hey, I've got a high chance of having to buy 15+ special weapons easy, I want to make sure I make the right choice." If they continue whining, they've got other problems and they're going to cause trouble every time you bring your IG to the table anyways.

Also, SWS's tend to suffer very grisly fates without accomplishing much. A 6 man squad packing big scary weapons tends to do that. They work great as something to kick out of the back of a vendetta though, and for the low low price of 95pts, you can give your vendetta an apocalyptic 3 shot barrage of AP 2 S8 pie plates (aka the x3 demo charge SWS) You get a much better version of a SWS built into your platoon already in the PCS. They can take more weapons for cheaper, so anytime you're looking at buying a SWS, see if your PCS can pull that job off instead.

Also, GL's and snipers are very rarely worth the cost. They're priced 5 points for a reason after all. Hang onto them anyways, never know what kind of conversion you can do with them!

ITT - people who don't realise that Gets Hot! lowers the plasma gun's usefulness dramatically. For every three shots that a plasma gun fires, there's a 1/3 chance that the shooter will be dead. Getting an extra 2 shots in the first two turns isn't much use if the user is dead by turn 3, and therefore can't shoot turns 4, 5 and 6.

Factor in AP1 and the ability to ID T4 and meltaguns are, imo, a no-brainer.

 Joey wrote:
ITT - people who don't realise that Gets Hot! lowers the plasma gun's usefulness dramatically. For every three shots that a plasma gun fires, there's a 1/3 chance that the shooter will be dead. Getting an extra 2 shots in the first two turns isn't much use if the user is dead by turn 3, and therefore can't shoot turns 4, 5 and 6.

Who cares if the gunner is dead on the third turn from an overloading plasma gun when they're going to be dead on the third turn from bolter fire? Guardsmen aren't exactly known for their durability, so the threat of taking casualties in a unit that often only gets 1-2 rounds of shooting anyway isn't all that scary.