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Hello Dakka. Being as I've sold my Grey Knight Army along with my Dark Eldar, I've now decided to take a step towards a Marine Chapter. However, the only one that seems to really interest me is Black Templars. Interestingly enough I've not fought Black Templars in years, and when I did play against them it was in 4th ed. Given that they're still operating out of the same Codex, how do they operate in 6th edition?

They are meh

They are the loyalist version of CSM with less of the fancy things.

They have good terminators, vindicators, troops and HQ choices, as well as army wide buffs. They also now get storm ravens and talons.

Their landspeeders are cheap, and their assault marines can all take melta bombs.

The trick with them is getting to the enemy. With rightous zeal that's easier on foot, but your melee death unit or two will need a transport of some kind. You should also invest in a marshal.

They can take special weapons very quickly on their tactical units, a 5 man with a lascannon in the corner is a common trick.

Finally their vindicators can puchase power of the machine spirit, making their threat range huge and always allowing them to fire.

Let's not forget they can have tank hunter terminators and dreads!

All in all they are a good force, and while not matt warded or having a shiny new hardback book, still hold well in the current game.

To put a positive spin on it, Black Templars are "challenging" to play. The two prong kick in the nuts was the removal of Preferred Enemy from their most useful Vow and the ruling that they MUST consolidate the full distance on a Righteous Zeal, making the holding of objectives difficult, to say the least.

They also have a few tricks up their sleeves. 5-man tank hunter terminator squads with 2x heavy weapons (Cyclone Missile Launcher or Assault Cannons) doesn't suck.

You can take what I say with a grain of salt, as I have not played against them since 4th edition either, so I have no first-hand knowledge of how they play in 6th either.

That said, I know people who have BT armies on the shelf and I've talked to people who have played them or seen them talked about on dakka, and in all cases, the reviews have not been positive. Whenever the subject of BTs comes up it seems to include phrases like "underpowered," "badly needs an update," or "lowest tier." I know they have one of the oldest codexes (along with eldar and tau), which always puts an army behind the pack. I'm sure others can comment more specifically as to their issues, but using an outdated codex will never be easy.

Keep in mind, the most vocal people regarding BT are the ones who feel they have been screwed by GW. These are the vocal minority.

 juraigamer wrote:
Keep in mind, the most vocal people regarding BT are the ones who feel they have been screwed by GW. These are the vocal minority.

That's a broad enough brush to paint a house with, dude.

Whilst it is true BT need an update, they only need bringing into line with newer codexes (captains WS6, grenades for the marines...) a player that knows what they are doing can still wreck face with them.

they still have nice little gimmicks that can suprise people, like FC on assault terminators or TH on tactical termies,

they can get PotMS on all their vehicles other than LRs that have it already,

the change to AACNMTO was a tad annoying but its brought chaplains back into the mix

also with death from the skies BT now get to use the stormraven and stormtalon

overall, they aren't a 'starter' army but not unplayable by any means

look at the bright side you can now field a stormraven for blacktemplars.

BT is one of those armies you need to study tactica very carefully and get a bunch of practice games in with friends before you do anything serious with them. People just simply picking them up because they like the look or fluff are going to get flattened and get discouraged quick. You need to know what youre getting into and really master them before unleashing them on an unsuspecting public.

I myself have had several comments of suprise when delivering a proper beatdown. It all comes down to the player. Should get a lot more interesting with flyers =)

 juraigamer wrote:


They can take special weapons very quickly on their tactical units, a 5 man with a lascannon in the corner is a common trick.

Finally their vindicators can puchase power of the machine spirit, making their threat range huge and always allowing them to fire.

MSU ranged took a huge hit in the January faq. It was the final thing to make me retire BT until the new codex. They need to RZ test on every casualty which has always been annoying, but now they need to actually move the FULL distance rolled on RZ if passed as per the new FAQ. If you have your MSU gunline behind an defense line, they will move out of cover. If they want to get back in on their turn, they will have to snap fire.

If you want MSU heavy weapons, play DA. That's what I switched to.

They have always been able to use POTMS Vinds. Nothing has changed in that regard, but what has changed has negated the purpose of using POTMS on Vinds. POTMS no longer says fire a weapon that could not normally be fired, it now says at full BS, which means you cannot move more than 6inches and fire a demolisher cannon as you could with 5e POTMS.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
Keep in mind, the most vocal people regarding BT are the ones who feel they have been screwed by GW. These are the vocal minority.

That's a broad enough brush to paint a house with, dude.

Yeah. This guy doesn't speak for me. He's rather ignorant about BT actually in that he didn't know the implications of POTMS from 5e to 6e.

I'm sure BT have all the usual Marine-centric rules that supersede the rulebook so I'm sure this is just a storm in a teacup.

MarsNZ wrote:
I'm sure BT have all the usual Marine-centric rules that supersede the rulebook so I'm sure this is just a storm in a teacup.

I'm sure (insert uninformed, 2/10 content here) and (insert neckbeardy sarcastic remark here).

I don't know what sucks about 6 S9 CMLs in 3 Terminator squads...

They can spam S9 shooting like nobody else. I personally dig it.

Dont like RZing off of objectives? Go to Ground. Done.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
I don't know what sucks about 6 S9 CMLs in 3 Terminator squads...

They can spam S9 shooting like nobody else. I personally dig it.

It's almost as if Tank Hunters don't add strength to armour penetration anymore...

 juraigamer wrote:
They are the loyalist version of CSM with less of the fancy things.

They have good terminators, vindicators, troops and HQ choices, as well as army wide buffs. They also now get storm ravens and talons.

Their landspeeders are cheap, and their assault marines can all take melta bombs.

Meltabomb Assault Marines still suffer from one fatal flaw: they're 22 point Assault Marines that pay extra for Meltabombs. They're just not worth it.

Crusader Squads are the worst "tactical" Marines in the game, not sure how they're "good". The stuff that makes the Codex playable is in the other slots. The troops are there because we have to take them.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Dont like RZing off of objectives? Go to Ground. Done.

Which means you're still only firing Snap Shots, but yes, it's better than rushing off into Emperor knows where.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Dont like RZing off of objectives? Go to Ground. Done.

Wow, I never thought of that ! Fixes everything really. Bullet sponge Neophyte dies, go to ground and lose that squads effective shooting ! Sounds like a solution from a very good player, not some pleb with a stupid reddit avatar.

I have a ton a success with my CC Crusaders. Its the shooty Crusaders I dont care for. Theyve never done a thing for me beyond laying in the dirt next to an objective.

A CC squad needs to be played right. You WILL be losing Neos. You WILL be RZing. And YOU HAD BETTER HAVE TAKEN A CHAPPY AND SERVITORS. Dont run them right up the field and hope the RZ gets you across it in one piece, because you are going to get shredded on the way. Instead learn how to work the RZ and the Chappy. Youve got a choice of 6 inches or 7-9 inches with the Servitors. The Chaplain allows you to RZ towards ANY enemy, not just just the one who shot at you. THIS IS THE KEY GENTLEMEN. Start them as far up as you can, and if possible keep them running in cover. Then your life is easy. But when you have a full Black Tide youre going to have some Neos poking out. When one of them gets popped, you use the RZ towards whichever enemy will get you back into cover. Continue to zigzag up the table like that until you can line up a charge and smash somebody. Even back up if you think you will get charged or need to realign yourself. THE CHARGE IS EVERYTHING! You waste AAC if you dont get it off. You waste the Chappy's miss re-roll if you dont get the charge.

If you keep yourself in cover, keep the casualties down, and land that charge on a large MEQ group or a weaker blob you are going to flatten it. Picking your targets is very important. EC is a challenge badass but only situationally. He will chew through MEQ and make sure that is his only target. The rest of your squad is going to waste everything around him. But you need that initial Charge, ACC, and Chappy re-roll to get the momentum going and end it before it starts.




Of course, this is simply how I play. There are plenty of sound tactics to use and this is simply how I like to play and what works best for me. And with flyers, Ill keep doing it, only with air support from a Raven and Talon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Movac wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Dont like RZing off of objectives? Go to Ground. Done.

Wow, I never thought of that ! Fixes everything really. Bullet sponge Neophyte dies, go to ground and lose that squads effective shooting ! Sounds like a solution from a very good player, not some pleb with a stupid reddit avatar.

Cant tell if youre serious or getting really pissy over a plastic spaceman game. But Ill give you the benefit of the doubt, and hope you enjoyed the solution to the a problem you mentioned.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
I have a ton a success with my CC Crusaders. Its the shooty Crusaders I dont care for. Theyve never done a thing for me beyond laying in the dirt next to an objective.

A CC squad needs to be played right. You WILL be losing Neos. You WILL be RZing. And YOU HAD BETTER HAVE TAKEN A CHAPPY AND SERVITORS. Dont run them right up the field and hope the RZ gets you across it in one piece, because you are going to get shredded on the way. Instead learn how to work the RZ and the Chappy. Youve got a choice of 6 inches or 7-9 inches with the Servitors. The Chaplain allows you to RZ towards ANY enemy, not just just the one who shot at you. THIS IS THE KEY GENTLEMEN. Start them as far up as you can, and if possible keep them running in cover. Then your life is easy. But when you have a full Black Tide youre going to have some Neos poking out. When one of them gets popped, you use the RZ towards whichever enemy will get you back into cover. Continue to zigzag up the table like that until you can line up a charge and smash somebody. Even back up if you think you will get charged or need to realign yourself. THE CHARGE IS EVERYTHING! You waste AAC if you dont get it off. You waste the Chappy's miss re-roll if you dont get the charge.

If you keep yourself in cover, keep the casualties down, and land that charge on a large MEQ group or a weaker blob you are going to flatten it. Picking your targets is very important. EC is a challenge badass but only situationally. He will chew through MEQ and make sure that is his only target. The rest of your squad is going to waste everything around him. But you need that initial Charge, ACC, and Chappy re-roll to get the momentum going and end it before it starts.


Of course, this is simply how I play. There are plenty of sound tactics to use and this is simply how I like to play and what works best for me. And with flyers, Ill keep doing it, only with air support from a Raven and Talon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Movac wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Dont like RZing off of objectives? Go to Ground. Done.

Wow, I never thought of that ! Fixes everything really. Bullet sponge Neophyte dies, go to ground and lose that squads effective shooting ! Sounds like a solution from a very good player, not some pleb with a stupid reddit avatar.

Cant tell if youre serious or getting really pissy over a plastic spaceman game. But Ill give you the benefit of the doubt, and hope you enjoyed the solution to the a problem you mentioned.

EC's wep is now ap3. He's not bad at challenges, but he is not a "badass" He'll get curbstomped by someone in armour 2 with an axe or fist.

The Chaplain is just some loser with an ap4 weapon, luckily he's mostly there for his buffs now. He used to be good at support and combat. You can kit him out with better stuff, but he's already an expensive model because his 4e point cost accounted for the crozius not being a piece of junk.

Crusaders kitted out the same as CSMs cost 19 points, enough said on their efficiency.

I'm glad you're successful in your fantasy-fantasy world. You must have found a good Alzheimer's clinic to hand out some beatdowns with BT melee. Sadly in the real world BT melee does not translate well into 6e, or really mid to late 5e even.

Edited by Manchu

Meanwhile, as I was saying...... it all boils down to the player OP. Try em out, hell even proxy your GK with friends to get the hang of the mechanics. If you have a Stormtalon even better!

Edited by Manchu

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Edited by Manchu

Meanwhile, as I was saying...... it all boils down to the player OP. Try em out, hell even proxy your GK with friends to get the hang of the mechanics. If you have a Stormtalon even better!

No StormTalon, I've a Storm Raven however.

BT are struggling, even if playable. The inclusion of two flyer types now does give us some sorely needed help with anti-air, at least.

As for our Troops choice - the problem with shooty crusaders is that while we can indeed get two ranged special weapons for a 5-man squad and the cost per weapon is low as well, Righteous Zeal kinda counteracts that especially as far as the heavy weapon is concerned. If we could take two non-heavy special weapons, it'd be... nicer, especially for offensive shooty squads (like drop podded units). Or, if we could just ignore the damn RZ move if we wanted to so that we don't have to run back after running off and thus snapshot!

For melee crusaders we lack grenades, so if for example a CC Dread decides to pay them a visit, it's a death sentence. And if we do buy both grenade types (kinda need 'em frags for the difficult terrain charges), it's 19 points per model, which really really hurts. Also there's the usual problem of transporting them. Stormraven does add a new option, but regular power armor models are risky to put in there if it ends up crashing, and as such I mainly plan to use it to transport TH+SS termies and a Dread, if anything.

Are Black Templars fine for friendly games? I am looking at doing a army of them (as they are probably the closest thing I can get in normal 40k to Great Crusade Era Marines). I would mainly be going with a shooty list with Shooty Terminator Marshall and Emporers Champion support?

Yeah, if the opponent indeed won't insist on bringing only the best units he can. Basically you usually end up with a boring defensive gunline if you have to try to deal with "un-friendly" lists.