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I'm quite new to 40k and have been asked to arrange a competition within our our club. I was thinking of running a knock out style comp but no sure on individual rules, what would most people expect for a standard 500 point tourniment.

how about stuff like
no armor 14
no 2+ saves.
no more than three wounds.
stuff like that^^

Unless you meant competition rules about how the tourney works, in which case I'd probably rule against the knock-out game - it tends to leave players who get knocked out in round 1 rather bitter.

Better is to count each battle as a tournament victory point, and whoever has the most tournament victory points at the end wins.

This also allows you to add additional points for things like well-painted armies, original armies and sportsmanship.

Something like;

Winning a battle: +2 points to the victor.
Drawn Battle: +1 point to each player
Fielding a fully painted army: +1 point to the player
Fielding an army with a codex more than 5 years old: +1 point to the player
Causing a fuss/disrupting the games: -1 point to the player

Thanks, a mixture of the last 2 posts is what I was after.

The idea behind the knock out is there will be above 10 players so a points based torny could take an age, one night a week. unless the points system could better.

Just play it as a regular game of 40k.

If someone is going to try and be an ass and bring something like a helldrake or a leman russ, that means that they're going to be spending basically nothing on their troops choices. They'll have a really tough time being able to play to the mission, and so long as others do (and don't just get freightened of whatever they brought), then most players should have a fairly easy time of it.

 Ailaros wrote:
Just play it as a regular game of 40k.

If someone is going to try and be an ass and bring something like a helldrake or a leman russ, that means that they're going to be spending basically nothing on their troops choices. They'll have a really tough time being able to play to the mission, and so long as others do (and don't just get freightened of whatever they brought), then most players should have a fairly easy time of it.

CCS

Vets

Vets

Demolisher

Colossus

-495

IG is a big reason why "regular 40k games" don't work at 500 points.

Bring the table down to 4x4 for 500 point games.

Sisters tend to break them too though;

Celestine

Battle Sisters with flamers

Battle Sisters with meltas and Immolator

So maybe looking towards:

Minimum
1 x HQ
1x Troop

No 3+ Armour saves
Single codex
No flyers
Objective to be decided by 3rd person
Fully painted army
proxys allowed
single list

no +14 armour?
no large blast templates?

Points

First Blood +1
Total annilation +2
Win +3
killing the enemys HQ +1
being an ass -1

how does that feel? still thinking the one with least points is knocked out that rounds.

Um, you just banned half the armies in the game from playing.

The old 40k in 40 minutes rules tend to work at that points level (with a few 6th ed mods):

- 1+ Troops
- 0-1 HQ, Elite, FA, HS
- Max 2 wounds per model (except for swarms)
- No 2+ armour saves
- Max vehicle armour 33 (front + side + rear)
- Flyers instead count as fast skimmers
- No ordnance

You can check out my participation in a very similar local tournament here!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Um, you just banned half the armies in the game from playing.

Helpful, can you explain why?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hedgehog wrote:
The old 40k in 40 minutes rules tend to work at that points level (with a few 6th ed mods):

- 1+ Troops
- 0-1 HQ, Elite, FA, HS
- Max 2 wounds per model (except for swarms)
- No 2+ armour saves
- Max vehicle armour 33 (front + side + rear)
- Flyers instead count as fast skimmers
- No ordnance

You can check out my participation in a very similar local tournament here!

Thanks that looks the ticket, noob question though, what would class as ordnance?

Ordnance is a specific class of weapon with it's own rules, so it'll be listed in the weapon description. Given the other restrictions, it's only really affecting the SM Whirlwind and a few IG artillery tanks like the Basilisk & Griffon. It's effectively banning large blast templates (though there may be a few rare exceptions).

TheCaptain wrote:CCS
Vets
Vets
Demolisher
Colossus

That wouldn't bother me at all. A single extremely ignorable tank, and a single easily destroyable artillery piece. The rest of the list is only 20 very squishy scoring units.

Focus on the mission, and this list wouldn't stand much of a chance.

I would go with only requiring 1 Troops choice. Marines can find it very difficult to fit a 500 point list with 2 troops and an HQ.

give battle points for doing crazy stuff, like the following.



Take on the Challange: Issue a challange: 1 point

Pwned by a newb!: Kill an enemy IC in a challange with a sergeant or equivilant: 2 points

Boom, Headshot!: Kill an enemy model with a Precision Shot: 1 point

O'i, that's mine!: Take an objective away from an opponent's scoring unit. 1 point

ids1984 wrote:
So maybe looking towards:

Minimum
1 x HQ
1x Troop

No 3+ Armour saves
Single codex
No flyers
Objective to be decided by 3rd person
Fully painted army
proxys allowed
single list

no +14 armour?
no large blast templates?

Points

First Blood +1
Total annilation +2
Win +3
killing the enemys HQ +1
being an ass -1

how does that feel? still thinking the one with least points is knocked out that rounds.

i think you ment no 2+ saves not no 3+ saves

2+ saves should be allowed. It arbitrarily removes the ability to play some types of lists. GKs can't even make a legal list as all their HQs have 2+ armor(Inquisitors don't count, they arn't GKs )

Honestly at 500 points I'm not sure I would ban much of anything as most of the cool toys will take up half the army and leave you no room even with just an HQ and a Troop minimum. Flyers might be a small annoyance at that level for some but playing an objective game or possibly an off-shoot of The Relic in which getting the "relic" closest to your deployment zone wins would make countering them less important... or you could simply let everyone go nuts and give each player an off-table Quad-Gun that can only fire upon Flyers. Possibly with the option to leave a model off-table to fire it at it's BS only or even the option to trade a model for the Lascannon. (probably measured from the center of their table edge plus a few inches)

Yeah.

Also, a restriction on AV14 is kind of dumb, especially in a world where AV13 vehicles are currently the most powerful. Of course, get rid of any vehicle over AV12 and you're really seriously skewing things towards armies who have AV12 and AV11 transports. There are whole necron, tau, and ork builds that simply wouldn't work at all.

Likewise, some armies rely on large blasts more than others. Taking away large blasts from marines is trivial, as they only have two sources of it, and neither are very good. Meanwhile, I don't know if there even ARE large blast weapons in dark eldar or grey knights. On the other hand, you've basically told every guard player to go screw themselves (especially if you say no AV14, as that means that guard can't bring HS choices to a game).

No matter what strange restrictions you put on, you're only going to make game balance worse. In the case of the restrictions posted above, you're giving a huge leg-up to power armored armies and mech armies. They don't need any more help, thank you very much.

Better to just go with regular games. Things like scenario or mission points are fine, but I wouldn't place restrictions on what units a person can or cannot bring.

The only thing that really helps with a 500 point game is to play on a smaller board.4X4 or so and everything else balances out pretty well.

Makes it harder to use flyers and gives CC armies a change.

ids1984 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Um, you just banned half the armies in the game from playing.

Helpful, can you explain why?

Because you banned 3+ armour saves - so that means Dark Angels, Black Templars, Space Marines, Sisters of Battle and Space Wolves can't play. Well, I guess DA and SM could, if they only fielded Scouts...

 Furyou Miko wrote:

ids1984 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Um, you just banned half the armies in the game from playing.

Helpful, can you explain why?

Because you banned 3+ armour saves - so that means Dark Angels, Black Templars, Space Marines, Sisters of Battle and Space Wolves can't play. Well, I guess DA and SM could, if they only fielded Scouts...

Thank you, I'm still new so the explaination helped. I hsd made an error as pointed by another user it was meant to be 2+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok had a bit of a think and here's what I've come up with looking at a few codex:

Army Rules


0-1 HQ
1-3 Troop minimum with at least 2 other choices.
0-3 Elite, dedicated transport, FA, HS.


No Named Characters
Max 34 points of armour complete
Flyers count as fast skimmers
No 2+ armour save
no more than 2 wounds per model (less swarms)
no ordanance or large blast templates

Single codex - start marines, finish marines

Torny Rules - knock out due to time and numbers

Proxys allowed within reason
Objectives for each game selected at random
5 pieces of terrain per game set up by independant player
1 Army list per round but you can change your list each round
Army lists to show all points used inc upgrades and weapons
6th edition rules
Each game to last 6 turns

Points

First Blood 1 pt
Warlord kill 1 pt
Holding Obj 1 pt
Total annilation 3 pts
Whole army painted 1 pt

At the end of the game player with the most points progresses to the next round
If we end up with uneven players in a round the loser with the most points from the previous round will progress to the next round.
2-4 weeks to play each round
non player will forfeit the round

How does that size up? any points please explain why

I was thinking the final game to maybe increase to 1000pts

By 'No characters' I assume you mean 'No named characters'? Otherwise again, because of the way the game works you're blocking out everyone.

So you went with the knock-out idea after all? You'll need to carefully define what's meant by "taking enemy objectives", since several missions have objectives all over the place, not necessarily assigned to one player or the other.

I did mean named characters, I'll be more carefull with my wording.

At the moment I'm looking at knockout because if everyone joins in we're looking at 20 - 30 players, It could take an age for everyone to play each other when we get together once a week. I'm aware it's not ideal and if we end up with less I'll change it to a league style, either way the points hold valid.

The objectives thing, not sure maybe aim it more for taking an objective from an enemy i.e. they physically hold it and you take it from them, it'll get you an extra point rather than just walking on to it.

Minimum
1 HQ

no more than 2 wounds per model (less swarms)

This breaks the game. Tau can't bring a legal army at all, IG can only take a (terrible) primaris psyker as an HQ, etc. You need to allow HQs with 3 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ids1984 wrote:
The objectives thing, not sure maybe aim it more for taking an objective from an enemy i.e. they physically hold it and you take it from them, it'll get you an extra point rather than just walking on to it.

In other words, you get penalized for aggressively moving up and taking objectives because the first player to claim an objective risks allowing their opponent to get the bonus point for taking it from them AND the point for holding it at the end of the game.

[b]Ok with the Tau I read it that the commander can have up to 3 wounds? IG can still have a HQ their will lie elsewhere, uthe only thing breaking the game here is if the Tau can't physically have a HQ.

Fair point on the taking an enemy held objective that could really slow game play down, I'll remove that.

All the Tau HQs have at least 3 wounds, that is the issue. Plus, they MUST take that 3 wound HQ. And most other factions have HQs with 3 wounds they would want to take.

That rule is basically eliminating Tau from the game. and severly limiting pretty much everyone else.

ids1984 wrote:
Ok with the Tau I read it that the commander can have up to 3 wounds? IG can still have a HQ and other units can make the balance up, the only thing breaking the game here is if tbe Tau can't physically have a HQ.

The point is that the only legal HQ for IG is a terrible one because the CCS (the "standard" HQ for an IG army) and lord commissar both have 3 wounds. But since they're only T3 with a 5+ save they're actually less durable than a 2-wound marine HQ. By focusing just on the arbitrary wounds stat instead of overall "how hard is it to kill this" you unfairly penalize some armies more than others.

ids1984 wrote:
[b]Ok with the Tau I read it that the commander can have up to 3 wounds? IG can still have a HQ their will lie elsewhere, uthe only thing breaking the game here is if the Tau can't physically have a HQ.

Fair point on the taking an enemy held objective that could really slow game play down, I'll remove that.

The only HQ IG can take with 2 wounds is absolutely awful, and damages several mechanics that the IG army depends on.

There are plenty of armies with fantastic 2 wound HQ's, but several armies only have decent HQ's in the 3 wound range.

Limiting HQ wounds to 2 gives a massive advantage to armies like GK and SW.

It limits GKs to taking Brotherhood Champs and Librarians. Which is ok, but what if I want to use a Grandmaster?

What If I am playing vanilla marines and want to use a Captain or Chapter Master? Can't do it.

IG can't use CCS.

Nids, poor poor nids.


You pretty much eliminate every melee HQ choice out there.

So, you really, really need to get rid of the 2-wound restriction. Most HQ choices have W3. Many of them have a 2+ save.

Once again, you're bringing up alterations to the rules that screw over certain armies. Tyranids, for example, can't bring monstrous creatures, which means tyranid basically can't play at all. Necron can't bring vehicles outside of their flier (that's not a flier in this case), which means they basically can't play at all. No wing armies of any kind.

If the only people who are playing at your store are just space marines, then this might fly, but for everyone else...