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So, in my discussion with nkelsch in another thread he stated that "pay to play" options are increasingly common in FLGSs. Since this is the first time that I've heard this and have always considered (and the local experiences in this have so far turned out badly for said stores), that pay to play is generally a bad idea, I would like to know just how common it is to have to directly pay for table time for the common Dakkaite out there.

P.S.: If you have another form of direct payment for table use in your FLGS, be it an entry fee or a monthly payment or anything of that type, please vote for option 1 since I'm dumb and forgot to add those options to the poll...

I would also greatly appreciate if you wrote a short reply stating what that form of payment was. Thank you very much.

Pay and Olay for the night isn't an option, add it

Both stores I frequent are not pay to play. That I support my FLGS is unrelated. I have bought entire armies off of ebay or other non-FLGS services, and they are welcome at both establishments.

This includes GW stores.

 Formosa wrote:
Pay and Olay for the night isn't an option, add it

Vote for option 1 if that is your case please, since you are effectively still paying to play by the hour (even if the hourly rate ends up being minuscule).

You need another option... There are 'Pay to Play' options which include 'club memberships' or 'event entry fees' as well as other programs like having a named unit purchased ins tore to use a table, or free to play with 'prioritized' access via pay/purchase.

So only having 'table credit' or 'rented by the hour' make for a poor biased poll.

I also disagree with 'if you are a regular customer' not being a form to 'pay to play' since that seems to lead to some distinction that people who are not customers would somehow be barred from table access. I think a program which gives first access to confirmed customers via in-store purchase is a form of 'pay to play' even when you are not directly renting the space.

I've never paid where I regularly play, but I'm basically running the place most of the time so I doubt the staffer would dare to ask me to pay...

My FLGS is completely free to play on. That being said, many of us support my FLGS because this is where we play and the owner is smart enough to have a store club card that once purchased for $20 gets you 20% off for a year.

I've been to stores with Pay-to-Play systems, and they are typically only implemented if off-site purchases have gotten so bad as to actually eat into the profits of the store. In the store that has this system (the only one I'm aware of), you can play for free if you're a regular customer, if you're not a regular but you make a purchase or you can rent playing areas hourly. This happened because people would go online to buy models and then go to the store to play games. The store owner (I talked with him at length about this) REALLY did not want to do this, but he felt he had no choice as people that were not supporting his store were often tying up the gaming areas.

You are missing another option. Once one of the stores I could play at started charging I stop playing there and buying goods.

So the store I would play at is free and I also game at houses. But the store that started charging has lost all of my business.

tiger g wrote:
You are missing another option. Once one of the stores I could play at started charging I stop playing there and buying goods.

So the store I would play at is free and I also game at houses. But the store that started charging has lost all of my business.

Well, then you no longer game there so no other option needed...

But your experience matches mine as well: i.e. stores that start charging for table use just lose the majority of their customers, so this poll is more to see what amount of people actually actively support these types of measures.

PhantomViper wrote:


But your experience matches mine as well: i.e. stores that start charging for table use just loose the majority of their customers, so this pole is more to see what amount of people actually actively support these types of measures.

Majority of their customers or majority of people that play there but buy all of their stuff online and aren't support the store at all? Huge difference.

Also, lose not loose and poll not pole.

When I play at a store the one I play at is totally free. Sure they like you buying stuff as that's what the tables are for, to gain customers. But I never have to pay a fee to play a game. Now obviously they also run tournaments/events where you do have to pay to participate in but I think that's different.

godswildcard wrote:
My FLGS is completely free to play on. That being said, many of us support my FLGS because this is where we play and the owner is smart enough to have a store club card that once purchased for $20 gets you 20% off for a year.

I've been to stores with Pay-to-Play systems, and they are typically only implemented if off-site purchases have gotten so bad as to actually eat into the profits of the store. In the store that has this system (the only one I'm aware of), you can play for free if you're a regular customer, if you're not a regular but you make a purchase or you can rent playing areas hourly. This happened because people would go online to buy models and then go to the store to play games. The store owner (I talked with him at length about this) REALLY did not want to do this, but he felt he had no choice as people that were not supporting his store were often tying up the gaming areas.

I think thats fair to be honest. If people regularly turn up with new models that they have not bought in store yet never actually purchase anything in store then I can understand the store owner wanting to get back some of the money that a gaming area costs to run and maintain.

To me paying to play is the mark of a store that isnt in it for the love of games, but the love of money. I recently changed stores the require me to pay. I have yet to buy models(Well alot) from the new store. He knows im strapped for cash, but he lets me play under the condition I do a few things, I stop to give the basics of the game to anyone who asks and that I clean up my mess.

The GW store where I've been playing recently (or rather mostly assembling stuff as it seems the only time I get free to put stuff together), has no fees at all for games, demo sessions, painting tutorials etc...

I've played at a few small clubs/groups and there was often a small fee either per time or per year and that normally went to the rental of the premises as well as for things like club terrain and other such items.

I've only see charges at stores for things like tournaments where you've got a cash prize or other form of award or where the venue is off-site and rented for the occasion.


I've not seen anywhere charging per game - the only time I've seen that is for MTG booster draft (where its paying for the card packs you open and keep during the game).



I can appreciate retailers having to take steps to deal with online trade. Sadly geeks are more web-aware than many other market groups and I can see the pressure put on a small store to keep its income up whilst giving up large amounts of space (which isn't free for them on their rates and heating bills) for games.
I can also understand that if it costs to play many won't - heck for people like myself I already pay a £14 "fee" just to get into and out of town to get to the shop (train fair).

godswildcard's local store appears to have a decent policy that rewards local players without costing them any more than they'd normally be spending in the shop.

 kronk wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:


But your experience matches mine as well: i.e. stores that start charging for table use just loose the majority of their customers, so this pole is more to see what amount of people actually actively support these types of measures.

Majority of their customers or majority of people that play there but buy all of their stuff online and aren't support the store at all? Huge difference.

Also, lose not loose and poll not pole.

Considering that of the two stores that changed to a pay to play method one had to change back to free to play after a couple of months (and even now doesn't have nearly the same amount of regulars as it had before the change), and the other went bankrupt, I would say that they lost the majority of their customers and not just those that didn't support the stores in the first place...

Thanks for the grammar corrections, that's what I get for writing posts in a hurry...

I've been to stores with Pay-to-Play systems, and they are typically only implemented if off-site purchases have gotten so bad as to actually eat into the profits of the store.

I play at two stores. One of which is owned by a friend of mine and that's one of the main reasons why he had to implement a pay-for play type deal. It got so bad at one point that some players would wait until they saw someone looking at a game book, sneak up to them and whisper not to buy it. They would then sell that person their own used copy of that book in the store parking lot. Same thing started happening with magic cards etc. So my friend decided to implement a system. Two dollars per player using the table gets you the table for a few hours (longer if no one else needs it) and it buys each person a raffle ticket. At the end of the month there's a drawing and the winner gets a $20 gift card to the store. It managed to drive away a lot of the "bad" customers, gets him a few small dollars for his tables AND gives back to the gamers using those tables so it seems pretty fair.


The other store I play at has something like 20+ huge tables and does well enough that, so far, they aren't charging for them, but I could see that changing if sales start to slump.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
To me paying to play is the mark of a store that isnt in it for the love of games, but the love of money. I recently changed stores the require me to pay. I have yet to buy models(Well alot) from the new store. He knows im strapped for cash, but he lets me play under the condition I do a few things, I stop to give the basics of the game to anyone who asks and that I clean up my mess.

To be fair sauceman, they are not there for their love of games, they are a business and business are there to make money. Like the great Urban American Poet, SpaceGhostPurrp, once said, "If it doesn't make dollas, it don't make sense." Sure we'd all love to have stores with tons of gaming tables that are just there so we can play, but someone has to pay for the rent, the electricity, the heat, etc... If people come in, monopolize their playspace and walk out without buying anything, then why would you want those people in your store? Especially if they are the type of person that says, "yeah I could have ordered it through Bob, but it was just so much cheaper to get this army from the WarStore." I look longingly back at the WarStore, but because I buy from where I play, I think of that extra 10% as the investment I make in the local business, so I can enjoy my Friday nights with my friends.

One of the stores I attend has regular 40k gaming for free.

However, they also regularly run tournaments which has a buy in (either cash, or buy a model). The buy in allows them to have prizes at the end, which is always fun.

I still voted free because, well, you can absolutely play for free.

Need better options, my main store is 2 buck for the day or 10 buck for the month with 25% of stock in store and all orders.

I have never been to a "pay to play" store. That said, I spend quite a bit at my chosen store because I do play there, but it's not required. If they can get the product in, I buy it from them. Exceptions have been Star Trek attack wing and a Reaper Phoenix model (those're discontinued), and those I've had to seek outside assistance for. No luck on the Phoenix yet, only Star Trek ship I can't get is the Bird of Prey. Access to everything else was no sweat.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
To me paying to play is the mark of a store that isnt in it for the love of games, but the love of money. I recently changed stores the require me to pay. I have yet to buy models(Well alot) from the new store. He knows im strapped for cash, but he lets me play under the condition I do a few things, I stop to give the basics of the game to anyone who asks and that I clean up my mess.

Heaven forbid a hobby store wants to stay in buisness and pay its bills. You do realise hobby stores are just like every other store, there to turn a profit.

We go to our local GW.... No pay to play, despite the s/ h bs, all fab except when one particular creep assistant hassles friends for not having the latest marines codex


Our regular store is dark sphere. £2 for the night, covers their costs in keeping the store open to 10pm or later, it's well worth it. Tonight they're opening a new bigger venue incidentally.

But then, I don't share the culture of 'entitlement' that some have here, where they take personal affront if a business chooses to conduct itself in a particular way.

clively wrote:
One of the stores I attend has regular 40k gaming for free.

However, they also regularly run tournaments which has a buy in (either cash, or buy a model). The buy in allows them to have prizes at the end, which is always fun.

I still voted free because, well, you can absolutely play for free.

I have been to a few stores which will organize play where people pay 5$ to play, but they order pizza and do raffles. So you pay 5$ all day, but get pizza and a good chance at store credit vouchers. It is a way to guarantee merch is moved as if you take in 100$ and buy 40$ of pizza and give away 60$ of store credit, those 10$ store credit coupons each usually turn into a 25$ or more sale and you end up moving a few hundred dollars of merchandise for a day of play. (which is the whole point of gaming space, is to sell product)

That basically allows wargamers to play on a weekend and not have to be booted by MtG booster drafts which basically has dozens of people who show up to play and guaranteed to buy piles of product.

Also: the whole second-hand sellers is an issue. I have seen that happen. I tend to wait to sell my stuff at store-run swap meets where you sell items for 'store credit' and then buy stuff with it. Seems pretty fair to the establishment running the event and allows people to move old models and still get new ones.

None of the gaming stores in metro Atlanta charge for using table space for pickup games (unless one of the further out ones has started very recently).

Though, it is considered good etiquette to purchase at least something (a coke or candybar, at the very least) if you're going to play there. I've never even heard of any owner or employee of a store telling someone they couldn't play because they hadn't paid for time or purchased anything.

Even the stores that have club memberships don't limit playing space to club members. Typically, club membership entitles a person to a discout on purchases and access to a set of better terrain pieces that are owned by the club rather than the store.

To expand, there are five gaming stores in north metro Atlanta that have table space for pickup games, and I have no experience with any of them charging in any way, and I have not heard anyone else say that any of them have started doing so.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
To me paying to play is the mark of a store that isnt in it for the love of games, but the love of money. I recently changed stores the require me to pay. I have yet to buy models(Well alot) from the new store. He knows im strapped for cash, but he lets me play under the condition I do a few things, I stop to give the basics of the game to anyone who asks and that I clean up my mess.

To be fair sauceman, they are not there for their love of games, they are a business and business are there to make money. Like the great Urban American Poet, SpaceGhostPurrp, once said, "If it doesn't make dollas, it don't make sense." Sure we'd all love to have stores with tons of gaming tables that are just there so we can play, but someone has to pay for the rent, the electricity, the heat, etc... If people come in, monopolize their playspace and walk out without buying anything, then why would you want those people in your store? Especially if they are the type of person that says, "yeah I could have ordered it through Bob, but it was just so much cheaper to get this army from the WarStore." I look longingly back at the WarStore, but because I buy from where I play, I think of that extra 10% as the investment I make in the local business, so I can enjoy my Friday nights with my friends.

I disagree. It may be in a business, but you dont get into game trade if you hate it. If they want the internet crowd then they have to offer money saving expenses not forcing you to pay. Im not thinking "Oh im going to pay full price because its where I play" Im thinking "Ugh, I can drive 15 minutes longer and get it for 20% less with no shipping. Like the store, they use to have a "If you get 1000 points your get 20% off a product" it was 1$=1pt, so I had to spend alot of money to save it. What they need is something like "for every 10$ purchase you make, you get a stamp, 10 stamps you get a 20$ gift card"

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
To me paying to play is the mark of a store that isnt in it for the love of games, but the love of money. I recently changed stores the require me to pay. I have yet to buy models(Well alot) from the new store. He knows im strapped for cash, but he lets me play under the condition I do a few things, I stop to give the basics of the game to anyone who asks and that I clean up my mess.

To be fair sauceman, they are not there for their love of games, they are a business and business are there to make money. Like the great Urban American Poet, SpaceGhostPurrp, once said, "If it doesn't make dollas, it don't make sense." Sure we'd all love to have stores with tons of gaming tables that are just there so we can play, but someone has to pay for the rent, the electricity, the heat, etc... If people come in, monopolize their playspace and walk out without buying anything, then why would you want those people in your store? Especially if they are the type of person that says, "yeah I could have ordered it through Bob, but it was just so much cheaper to get this army from the WarStore." I look longingly back at the WarStore, but because I buy from where I play, I think of that extra 10% as the investment I make in the local business, so I can enjoy my Friday nights with my friends.

I disagree. It may be in a business, but you dont get into game trade if you hate it. If they want the internet crowd then they have to offer money saving expenses not forcing you to pay. Im not thinking "Oh im going to pay full price because its where I play" Im thinking "Ugh, I can drive 15 minutes longer and get it for 20% less with no shipping. Like the store, they use to have a "If you get 1000 points your get 20% off a product" it was 1$=1pt, so I had to spend alot of money to save it. What they need is something like "for every 10$ purchase you make, you get a stamp, 10 stamps you get a 20$ gift card"

If your not spending in their store weather you like it or not. Im sure they wont give a rats ass if you dont turn up wasting their space.

I am so confused by what you are saying. Im not spending at their store because there is no incentive, every other stores I know of offer incentives, but many game stores do no.

I don't currently play at a store, so I abstained.

When I played CCGs, I purchased from the store at full retail rather than online discounters at 20% off because I'm not a dick.

I've paid for tournaments in those days, too. Most offered decent prize support, so good deal.

I've only played 40k at a store a few times, but both times I ended up buying something that I needed.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I am so confused by what you are saying. Im not spending at their store because there is no incentive, every other stores I know of offer incentives, but many game stores do no.

I think what he's saying is that you DO in fact have an incentive. You're playing there. If the other stores offer you a discount, then buy from them and play there.

One of the local groups I play at I actually organise, and it's just friends so I don't charge. The other group I play at does charge, £2 for a 4-5 hour session once a month. Given that they provide great terrain, mostly custom-built, I'm more than happy to pay that. It's not a store, so the pay just covers the rental of the village hall.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I am so confused by what you are saying. Im not spending at their store because there is no incentive, every other stores I know of offer incentives, but many game stores do no.

its simple really to understand.

1/if your not putting money into their store
2/why would they care if your not there

just because they are nice enough to provide a table to game on dont mean its your god given right to use it. Put ya money into their pockets then ya can expect something. Til then your just another freeloader no one gives a crap about.