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One of my regular opponents and good friend of mine recently purchased an old school Deathwing army off of another mutual friend. The army had been on the shelf since half way through 5th edition and none of my group had really dealt with Deathwing in 6th through our local meta which has basically everything else. Now we know why, a pure Deathwing force is just a few plasma shots away from a turn 3 board wipe. However, my 40k group also plays Deathwatch and likes the fluffy bits of 40k. The new owner of the Deathwing was playing a Dark Angels devastator in Deathwatch and after reading the fluff immediately knew he wanted to take the Deathwing Terminator advance. As the group read a little more into Deathwing from Deathwatch and other fluff we came to realize that these guys are woefully represented in 6th edition table top.

Our understanding is that they are the kings of alpha strike, show up out of nowhere guns ablazing. The only chance you have against them is to weather the storm and return fire. As such he thinks a few tweaks would make them playable for friendly competitive play in basements across the world. I would appreciate any feedback on its relative "balance", keep in mind this is pure Deathwing with no green or black. Only models in Terminator Armor with the Inner Circle special rule are allowed in this particular army, no allies, fortifications, inquisition, supplements or any other new idea GW has for ways to add things to your codex without making you a new codex. Very fluffy, and just so happens to help with potential balance issues!

Add to ability "Deathwing Assault":
Units choosing to make a Deathwing Assault do not count against the number of units held in reserve at the beginning of the game. If all the controlling players units start in reserve, the player is not subject to losing the game during the entire first turn due to having no models on the field. If a unit making a Deathwing Assault suffers a Mishap, they may always choose to suffer a Delayed result instead of roll on the Mishap Table.

Add to ability "Vengeful Strike":
On the turn a model with this special rule and armed with a Storm Bolter arrives from Deep Strike, change its profile to Heavy 3. A unit composed entirely of models with the Vengeful Strike special rule may choose one of the following special rules to benefit from until the end of this shooting phase: Twin Linked, Tank Hunters, Ignores Cover or Rending.

Add to options for Deathwing Terminators to take one per five models to replace their storm bolter:
Heavy Bolter 5 pts
Multi-Melta 10 pts
Autocannon 10 pts
Lascannon 20 pts
Grav Cannon 35 pts

We think this will give a very Deathwing-y feel to the army in these specific ways:
1.) Starting all in reserve and Deathwing Assaulting turn 1 guarantees alpha strike
2.) Although the solution to balance isn't normally "thrown more special rules at it" we feel that Deathwing are an exception to this and deserve some nice things to offset their low model count
3.) More heavy weapon options lets them deal with anything through ranged firepower turn 1. Not having access to anti-heavy armor ranged weapons was an issue as was not having anything natively AP2 (rending doesn't count when you may only be shooting your gun once).
EDIT: It was pointed out that they have access to Plasma Cannons on terminators. There were none modeled as such in the army sitting in front of me on the table top, my mistake.
4.) Through a combination of better ranged weapon selection and some new special rules you can cause SEVERE damage turn 1. This feels very Deathwing to us and helps balance out the low model count of Deathwing when there is less return fire. In the end it basically accelerates the game by one turn as far as casualties on both sides are concerned.

Example List (34 models) he has played against me with a couple times (we proxied the knights and alternate special weapons):

Belial (TH/SS)

2X Terminators (5 man squad)
2 chainfist, assault cannon

2X Terminstors (5 man squad)
2 chainfist, grav cannon

Terminators (6 man squad +Belial)
6 TH/SS, multi-melta

Deathwing Knights (7 man squad)

NO.

Think about what you writted, and put yourself in the shoes of the guy you will have to face Termies with MM, grav guns or Lascans...

Does not Deathwing termies allready have acces to Plasma cannons?

When i look at it its just like you and your friend, saw the Obliterators rules and though " WHy can't i do that with my termies!"

For starters you have better rules and survivibility with your termies, take an Apotichary and give shields to everyone, and they are night unstoppable, Oblits arn't like that.

SM Termies really don't need a buff, when they allready are the best termies in the galaxy...

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
NO.

For starters you have better rules and survivibility with your termies, take an Apotichary and give shields to everyone, and they are night unstoppable, Oblits arn't like that.

SM Termies really don't need a buff, when they allready are the best termies in the galaxy...

1.) Apothicaries are only available in the Command Squad, not a scoring unit, max 2/army after you buy a Deathwing HQ, and you still need troops.
2.) Oblits are swiss army knifes, I don't want to strap the whole armory to my termies but I do want them to get more choice in the single gun they get (in a 200+ point squad) that lets them tailor the squad to specific targets.
3.) Deathwing with all TH/SS is as far from fluffy as blue marines shaking hands with Tau (which is also totally legal in table top terms)

Deathwing are supposed to show up out of nowhere and be shooting as if their guns had started shooting while they were teleporting, not letting you shoot into them with their SS held up and then charge when half the squad is dead. Personally as a guard player, I think you underestimate how well weight of fire kills TH/SS Termies. I have found various versions of this "Guns Blazing" phrase in every deathwing fluff I have read. Basically Deathwing are supposed to "show up and shoot you to death", that is not TH/SS spam. Also, they pay extra points for the Vengful Strike ability that is of no use to a TH/SS model.

Just give them access to Heavy Bolters; they don't need to be Devastator Terminators in order to be "Shooty Alpha Strike Deathwing". Alternatively, give them more firepower with their Storm Bolters; twin-linked for the turn they deepstrike, or the ability to take combi-weapons like Chaos Terminators.

Terminators with multi-meltas would be too scary. 30" melta, really?

EDIT: To clarify, I didn't mean to give them combi-bolters like Chaos Terminators; more like an underslung combi-weapon attached to their Storm Bolter. It would be unique and it wouldn't be massively powerful, so it could be flavourful.

EDIT2: Or they could have Special Issue Ammunition.

EDIT3: Or just have combi-bolters, actually, because they are better than Storm Bolters. I would suggest BS5, but that might be too good. Maybe only the Sergeant?

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Just give them access to Heavy Bolters; they don't need to be Devastator Terminators in order to be "Shooty Alpha Strike Deathwing". Alternatively, give them more firepower with their Storm Bolters; twin-linked for the turn they deepstrike, or the ability to take combi-weapons like Chaos Terminators.

I am not trying to make Devastator Terminators, just give them some more dakka choices for the 1 or 2 guys that can carry a heavy weapon just like a Tactical Marines. Tactical Marines get Multi-Meltas and Heavy Bolters for their heavy guy, why not Tactical Terminators?

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

Terminators with multi-meltas would be too scary. 30" melta, really?

It's one shot at BS 4. I am not sure what you mean by 30" melta because you can't move the turn you DS and you can only get the bonus d6 at half range, can you explain more why this is a bad idea? It isn't too much different from DS landspeeder with MM (and far more expensive if I may say so).

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

EDIT: To clarify, I didn't mean to give them combi-bolters like Chaos Terminators; more like an underslung combi-weapon attached to their Storm Bolter. It would be unique and it wouldn't be massively powerful, so it could be flavourful.

EDIT2: Or they could have Special Issue Ammunition.

EDIT3: Or just have combi-bolters, actually, because they are better than Storm Bolters. I would suggest BS5, but that might be too good. Maybe only the Sergeant?

I like the idea of getting a 1 shot underslung special weapon to the whole squad, but I think that might be a little powerful in combination with the current rule of TL when you DS. Getting hit with 4 TL BS4 meltagun shots, 8 TL BS4 plasmagun shots? That is making lots of things vanish in pink mist... even by my IG "special weapons for everyone" tastes :p

I like the Special Issue Ammunition idea, however I will have to think about it more as currently there are not any storm bolter units that can take it enmass. It shouldn't be too much different than Sternguard but I will definently look into it.

Combi-Bolter vs Storm Bolter is a close argument for terminators. I can go to Combi Bolters simply for the fluffy "we have really old suits of terminator armor" reason, but it also makes the Special Ammo an easier sell because you no longer get double tap at 24" on hellfire ammo This would however mean that Vengeful Strike is obsolete in it's current form (TL when you DS) as your gun would already be TL.

Ah, I wasn't aware of what "Vengeful Strike" did. In that case, isn't it already enough for the thing you're talking about? Twin-linking is generally statistically better than an extra shot (which is why combi-bolters are better, combined with Rapid Fire) although of course you can only get one hit at best instead of up to two with good dice.

30" multi-melta is because the Terminators will continue to have the multi-melta in turns after they Deep Strike. The difference is that Tactical Squads cannot Deep Strike with multi-meltas, and firing the multi-melta prevents the whole squad from moving, which isn't the case with Terminators. This is why Terminators don't get lascannons. Furthermore, beyond half range, a melta is still Str8 AP1 - formidable in of itself. You'd be getting a twin-linked 24" melta shot (Vengeful Strike), and 30" of melta each subsequent turn. It's crazy. A multi-melta Land Speeder is not Terminators, it is a Land Speeder. Just like how it is an entirely different thing in the hands of Tactical Marines compared to 'Tactical' Terminators, it is so for Land Speeders and everything else that isn't a Terminator. Would it be good if Chaos Cultists could take Thunderhammers? No, it'd be an awful idea. That doesn't mean that TH/SS Terminators are an awful idea.

Special Issue Ammunition can be anything, it doesn't have to be the same as Sternguard. For a silly example; "Darkraven Darkbolts of Darkness - S5 AP1, Instant Death, Blind". Furthermore, Sternguard are 50pts more than Tactical Marines. Special Issue Ammunition should raise the cost of your Deathwing Terminators appropriately.

His thought on Heavy 3 (with TL from standard Vengence Strike) is that his 34 models in the list I showed put out 68 S4 AP5 TL shots the turn they arrive if they all had Storm Bolters (which they don't). That would give him 60 hits, shooting at T3 guard gives him 40 wounds, with 5+ cover gives me 26 unsaved wounds. I have two blob squads that size in my list at his point level and that is if he pours ALL of his fire into one unit. The math gets worse when you are shooting at Marines... 10 wounds if I did my math-hammer right. His point, which I agree with in premise, is that Deathwing do not have any way to get through hordes due to their very low model count. Marines come lower than half price and get similar "mass firepower".

I understand the concept that the cost of a given weapon also depends on the platform to which is attached and that is what I am trying to look at with the weapons he wants to add. I would point out that another local player plays Salamanders and loves his Drop Pod Tacticals which sometimes include MM (most of the time it is HF heavy, Melta special and MC Combi-Melta sarge) because of the movement issue you mentioned, but it is theoretically possible This type of setup would be similar to what a Terminator Squad can pull off, however the normal marines have the advantage of more accurate DS with drop pod and the 6" disembark in addition to having 2 shots first turn. The Terminators are more survivable and that is included in their base price IMO.

I misunderstood, but my mind was immediatly awash with how much our Nidzilla player would cry foul at a full termy army armed with hellfire shells I was also slightly afraid of board wide Dragonfire Bolts as a foot guard player, not to mention standard marine rage at getting board wide Vengeance rounds on a 2+ platform. I agree there is a lot of fun to be had here, potentially a system similar to combi weapons where you get it for 1 round per game selected when you roll warlord traits? You are teleporting from orbit, you generally know what you are getting yourself into and can throw in the right clip for the job...

After our discussion I would like to make the altered Vengeful Strike as follows:
On the turn a model with this special rule and armed with a Storm Bolter arrives from Deep Strike, change its profile to Heavy 3. A unit composed entirely of models with the Vengeful Strike special rule may treat their ranged weapons as Twin Linked.

They already get TL the turn they DS, this just gives them some more low/mid strength dakka which they have a distinct lack of. I am still in favor of giving more heavy weapon choices, I may ask him to alter the point value of some of the weapons but I like the list he has there in general. Having not played an army with a lot of 3+ or 2+ saves I can't say that I have too much experience with facing down Gravcannons, but at close to the cost of another whole figure I think it might be alright...

You are taking a extremilly balanced unit (it pays a lot for its higher defense), and making it unbalanced. You said you can take only 1 or 2 apothecaries per army, but how much you think you need? One unit witl 2+, 3++, feel no pain and S8 attacks is enough to atract lots of fire, and make our shooty squads do a dirty job.

Dont take it as insult, but i think you dont know how to properly use your toys, So you are trying yo get more toys in play, hoping they can do the job. Your army is high defensive, have powefull fast attack, high surviving scoring and one of the best death starts in the game. If you turn your scoring into deathstars, you are unbalancig the game.

Scoring units are not to "wreack havoc", those are the elite and heavy support units. Hell, you can get 2 termie squads for scoring, one honour guard with shields and apothecary, 2 squads of scout bikes with locators, land speeders of attack bikes for melta/flamers, and complete the points with more termies. You will have dozens of deepstriking twin-linked terminators with storm bolter and assault cannons, at the first turn, at the face of your enemy and without scattering (due to bikers). And obviously, a big undying death star atracting fire like hell. Well, that looks fun at least. ^^

 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Dont take it as insult, but i think you dont know how to properly use your toys, So you are trying yo get more toys in play, hoping they can do the job. Your army is high defensive, have powefull fast attack, high surviving scoring and one of the best death starts in the game. If you turn your scoring into deathstars, you are unbalancig the game.

The Dark Angels book DOES include all of the things you are presenting above. The aim of this is to EXCLUDE all units not wearing Terminator Armor for fluff reasons. I realize that the entire codex is balanced around having many different elements to make it well rounded, but we are only taking terminators for fluffy deathwing reasons. We are trying to make up for all of the balanced things those other units bring to the table by slightly (hopefully) altering the big guys in white. Fluff does have Ravenwing and Deathwing in close concert but in the current rules, you may never get to turn 2 because your couple squads of Ravenwing got blasted apart by the other player's alpha strike and you get tabled. The more points you put into Ravenwing, the fewer points you have for the Terminators that should make up the bulk of a Deathwing assault by fluff. Yes I speak herasy by trying to reconcile the rules with the fluff

 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Scoring units are not to "wreack havoc", those are the elite and heavy support units. Hell, you can get 2 termie squads for scoring, one honour guard with shields and apothecary, 2 squads of scout bikes with locators, land speeders of attack bikes for melta/flamers, and complete the points with more termies. You will have dozens of deepstriking twin-linked terminators with storm bolter and assault cannons, at the first turn, at the face of your enemy and without scattering (due to bikers). And obviously, a big undying death star atracting fire like hell. Well, that looks fun at least. ^^

Of all of these things, the rules I am proposing only would allow you to field the 2 termi squads and the honor guard (if they are in Terminator Armor). If you were restricted to only using Terminators in a Dark Angels list, how would you feel about the proposed rules?

I'm not familiar with the Dark Angels Codex, so correct me if I am wrong, but;

- Deathwing Terminators are Troops, and therefore scoring.
- Deathwing Terminators have the "Vengeful Strike" Special Rule, making all of their weapons Twin-Linked the turn they arrive by Deep Strike.
- They may take two special/heavy weapons per 5 models in the squad. This has potential for two twin-linked assault cannons (with possibility for Cyclone Missile Launcher, Heavy Flamers, and/or Plasma Cannons) + 8 twin-linked Storm Bolters, possibly coming down exactly where you want if there's a Teleport Homer around.

Your issue:

- Deathwing Terminators are supposed to do a lot of damage when they teleport in, because of fluff.

The only line I can find relating to this is on the Deathwing page of the Warhammer wiki (not Lexicanum, that other one), as follows:

The bulk of the 1st Company is composed of Terminator Squads, indefatigable warriors who blast apart their enemies with Storm Bolters whilst advancing into melee assault range. Deathwing Terminators feature a mix of weaponry, for both long-ranged and close combat oriented roles

It's not that I don't believe you or anything, just understand that this is all I have to go on for a grasp of how the fluff of Deathwing Terminators works. It seems that CC is something they do as well, so a few TH/SS Termies in there couldn't hurt.

So, here's the question; why is Vengeful Strike not enough? Twin-linked is amazing. Twin-linking everything for one turn is amazing.

From Warhammer 40k Wiki:

Terminators typically begin engagements aboard an orbiting starship, teleporting to the battlefield at a prearranged time, often homing in on a signal from ranging Ravenwing units. By the time foes see the flash signifying the arrival of the Deathwing's Terminators, it is already too late. The Deathwing appear in a blazing hail of gunfire, as if they had begun firing while en route. They live up to their name, arriving like a sword stroke to deliver the deathblow. "

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I'm not familiar with the Dark Angels Codex, so correct me if I am wrong, but;

- Deathwing Terminators are Troops, and therefore scoring.
- Deathwing Terminators have the "Vengeful Strike" Special Rule, making all of their weapons Twin-Linked the turn they arrive by Deep Strike.
- They may take two special/heavy weapons per 5 models in the squad. This has potential for two twin-linked assault cannons (with possibility for Cyclone Missile Launcher, Heavy Flamers, and/or Plasma Cannons) + 8 twin-linked Storm Bolters, possibly coming down exactly where you want if there's a Teleport Homer around.

1.) Only if you take Belial do Terminator Squads become Scoring. He is a 190 point Terminator captain which 3 configs: SB/MC Fleshbane PS, pair of LC, or TH/SS chosen at army creation. He can precise shot on a 5+ which isn't really a big deal when you have a SB, but once again a reference to the shooty-ness of deathwing. His FOC re-arrange only applies to Tactical Terminators, not Deathwing Knights (melee specialist Deathwing) or Command Squads (potentialy very resilient deathstar mentioned above).
2.) Correct!
3.) They may only take one (HF/Plas cannon/Assault cannon/CML) per 5 models in a squad.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Your issue:

- Deathwing Terminators are supposed to do a lot of damage when they teleport in, because of fluff.

With the corrections from above I do believe that they do not have quite the alpha that is implied with "The Deathwing appear in a blazing hail of gunfire, as if they had begun firing while en route. They live up to their name, arriving like a sword stroke to deliver the deathblow." We have played a couple games with the rules outlined in my original post (3 against my foot guard, 2 against Tau, 1 against nidzilla and 1 against eldar bikers) And they appeared to work fairly well, which is why we thought we should get a wider idea of what others might think I realize that my personal opinion is jaded by my playing IG against it which may be just a bad match for them, however the other matches were fairly close and neither side blamed the new rules for the results.

Point reduction across the board and and make banner of devastation count Storm bolters as Twinlinked Bolters.

Done

I agree with the points issue, hence why we were adding more "shiney". Maybe you are right and all they need is a reduction in points... FAR simpler, but you would still need the "can keep whole army in reserve without auto lose" clause in Deathwing Assault for a fluffy all termies list. Did you have a specific point reduciton in mind?

I like the Banner idea, uses an existing item of wargear already available to them and simply opens up the restriction to something that is in the same family (it is just two bolters ductaped together).

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I'm not familiar with the Dark Angels Codex, so correct me if I am wrong, but;

- Deathwing Terminators CAN BE Troops, and therefore scoring.
- Deathwing Terminators have the "Vengeful Strike" Special Rule, making all of their weapons Twin-Linked the turn they arrive by Deep Strike. TRUE
- They may take two special/heavy weapons per 5 models in the squad. This has potential for two twin-linked assault cannons (with possibility for Cyclone Missile Launcher, Heavy Flamers, and/or Plasma Cannons) + 8 twin-linked Storm Bolters, possibly coming down exactly where you want if there's a Teleport Homer around. False its 1/per 5 same as standard termies

Your issue:

- Deathwing Terminators are supposed to do a lot of damage when they teleport in, because of fluff.

The only line I can find relating to this is on the Deathwing page of the Warhammer wiki (not Lexicanum, that other one), as follows:

The bulk of the 1st Company is composed of Terminator Squads, indefatigable warriors who blast apart their enemies with Storm Bolters whilst advancing into melee assault range. Deathwing Terminators feature a mix of weaponry, for both long-ranged and close combat oriented roles

Deathwing in the fluff ALWAYS fight in terminator armor. That is why we don't have sternguard or vanguard

It's not that I don't believe you or anything, just understand that this is all I have to go on for a grasp of how the fluff of Deathwing Terminators works. It seems that CC is something they do as well, so a few TH/SS Termies in there couldn't hurt. The real meaningful fluff for deathwing is the mixed squads. We mix and match heavy and cc weapons for flexibility

So, here's the question; why is Vengeful Strike not enough? Twin-linked is amazing. Twin-linking everything for one turn is amazing.

While I would love my deathwing to be better. It's not a problem with the lack of weapons that is the problem its the survivability of termies in general has dropped and that even with the bonus rules we get they are overcosted. Also low model count in an all termie army cannot be avoided so you are lacking the numbers to have staying power. While I agree that the we should be able to remove the reserve restriction as that is also a big fluff deal.

@ OP: I don't think that adding new weapons and special rules is the proper way to balance our termie friends. They do not have the numbers to put out the needed firepower and adding new heavy weapons does not change that as its still 1/per 5 and even with split fire 1 MM or grav-cannon is not going to change the out come of the battle. At 44 points per model you will not have the numbers to combat anything but a similarly "elite" army


P.S. Deathwing for Life

Deathwing assault Auto lose only plays into effect if you CHoose to have them come in on the 2nd turn, At which point You lose at the end of Game Turn 1, However if you just Deathwing assault on the First turn you don't auto loose as your entire army appears on the board.

-10 points across the board.

I don't think that adding new weapons and special rules is the proper way to balance our termie friends. They do not have the numbers to put out the needed firepower and adding new heavy weapons does not change that as its still 1/per 5 and even with split fire 1 MM or grav-cannon is not going to change the out come of the battle. At 44 points per model you will not have the numbers to combat anything but a similarly "elite" army.

Our thought was that if we can do enough damage in our alpha strike, there is less fire comming back. Therefore increasing survivability by taking less return fire. So by buffing the Alpha with new special weapons and better rules for that turn, we wanted to have a true "Deathblow". Then the survivors duke it out with our 30 overcosted models

P.S. Deathwing for Life

I knew there was a following out there somewhere!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ninjacommando wrote:
Deathwing assault Auto lose only plays into effect if you CHoose to have them come in on the 2nd turn, At which point You lose at the end of Game Turn 1, However if you just Deathwing assault on the First turn you don't auto loose as your entire army appears on the board.

But you can't put yoru whole army in reserve without the other part of that rule...

You can put your whole army into reserve with the Deathwing assault rule, You only auto lose if you have no models on the board by the end of the game turn. if your opponent goes first, and then you do and DWA everything onto the board there is no problem.

If you say that all your stuff is going to arrive 2nd turn then you auto lose.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
You can put your whole army into reserve with the Deathwing assault rule, You only auto lose if you have no models on the board by the end of the game turn. if your opponent goes first, and then you do and DWA everything onto the board there is no problem.

I believe that the 6th edition rules state that you can only have 50% of your amy in reserve unless it MUST start in reserve (fliers, drop pods, etc). So you cannot put your whole army in reserve without the change in rules I had for Deathwing Assault. Correct me if I am wrong, but looking at my codex on "Deathwing Assault" doesn't say anything about being able to start all in reserve.

You are correct i miss read that part about DWA,

however you could place 50% of your terminators into standard reserves and then use the other 50% to Deathwing assault first turn.

Once again, the correct use of technical language should have been used in defining Deathwing Assault. I suppose if you can convince your opponent that Deathwing Assault is not normal reserves but part of the "special" allocation of units that must start in reserve, then you could have the whole army start in reserve.

As the BRB says that you can have half (rounded up) of your units (disregarding those required to start in Reserve) start the game in Reserves and the others are deployed normally. You should be able to argue the case that since all of your army "MUST" start in reserves... then you can declare all your units for turn 1 and do exactly what I was proposing. My language is a little more specific, which I suppose is the point

holymauler wrote:

1.) Only if you take Belial do Terminator Squads become Scoring. He is a 190 point Terminator captain which 3 configs: SB/MC Fleshbane PS, pair of LC, or TH/SS chosen at army creation. He can precise shot on a 5+ which isn't really a big deal when you have a SB, but once again a reference to the shooty-ness of deathwing. His FOC re-arrange only applies to Tactical Terminators, not Deathwing Knights (melee specialist Deathwing) or Command Squads (potentialy very resilient deathstar mentioned above).

Don't you have to take him, in order to make the army Terminator-only (your options being to take PA or Belial, otherwise you have no scoring units)?

holymauler wrote:

3.) They may only take one (HF/Plas cannon/Assault cannon/CML) per 5 models in a squad.

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant to say "2 special/heavy weapons (1 per 5 models in a squad)".

holymauler wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Your issue:

- Deathwing Terminators are supposed to do a lot of damage when they teleport in, because of fluff.

With the corrections from above I do believe that they do not have quite the alpha that is implied with "The Deathwing appear in a blazing hail of gunfire, as if they had begun firing while en route. They live up to their name, arriving like a sword stroke to deliver the deathblow." We have played a couple games with the rules outlined in my original post (3 against my foot guard, 2 against Tau, 1 against nidzilla and 1 against eldar bikers) And they appeared to work fairly well, which is why we thought we should get a wider idea of what others might think I realize that my personal opinion is jaded by my playing IG against it which may be just a bad match for them, however the other matches were fairly close and neither side blamed the new rules for the results.

Maybe they should bring back the 4th edition rule of just allowing 2 terminators in a squad to equip heavy weapons?
so you could have 2 assault cannons in your 5 man squad if you wanted to.

@ FrozenOcean
I can see you are really trying to help out here, Thanks!

I didn't include the ACs only because I was talking about upping the rate of fire of the SBs, I can see your point when you are adding in special weapons. Our thought was that since everything has Split fire, you would almost always split off the Heavy Weapon (MM/AC/Gravcannon/etc) to shoot at what it is "supposed to" and then SB into the hordes to try and knick them down. With the AT available turn 1 from current Terminators you are using that AC for anti-vehicle duty by our experience, hence why we wanted MM to be available to Terminators

Fluff is always "We are the best!" and I understand that. In the fluff that I get from the codex and other "sanctioned" sources, Deathwing are shooty first and punchy second. The way the rules are written currently that is reversed, and this edition heavily favors shooty (leaving alone that even a raw recruit in IG can get his hands on AP2). The "unique" unit for Deathwing are tougher termies with powermauls that they can turbocharge once, nothing shooty! I am not trying to use the "we are best" part of the fluff, just the way that the fluff says they are supposed to do their job (smiting heritics, xenos and occasionally Blue Marines ). Maybe that means dropping the points on them by 10 and taking away their PF. Maybe that means opening up the armory door a little wider (more heavy weapons). I am not trying to make an unstoppable deathstar of doom, just trying to make the way that you build a "decent" list reflect how the army is described in the fluff.

Upping the rate of fire of storm bolter is a good choice. Also taking away the powerfists would be good. As would the 2 heavies/per 5 at that point the firepower starts to matter. However I still feel that we termie armies it's the low model count that really hurts us. A points reduction would help.

Maybe its just me but I just don't see how adding a MM or grav-cannon to 1 or 2 termie squads would really help with firepower.

I would much rather be able to take combi- weapons like chaos or SW termies. Or change SoD to affect storm bolters

I like the knights they are a great anvil unit but they must have a landraider imo so that hurts because a landraider is the same points as a termie squad with a heavy further limiting model count.

Thank you, I do try.

I really don't know. They're really strong. Not being able to reliably Split-Fire and utterly destroy both targets isn't really an issue. Plus, those eight guys with Storm Bolters are still doing nearly 10 wounds on average against T3, equal to about 21 regular bolter shots. If one took a Heavy Flamer and one took an Assault/Plasma Cannon, you could reliably Split Fire and perform multiple tasks in that single strike, practically wiping out a max-sized Brood and, with the one Assault Cannon, getting a 10% chance to outright destroy AV12 in the same turn or cause a wound to a T6 MC.

Honestly, I think they're fine. The fluff simply states that they deep strike and tear into their enemies with bolter-fire before finishing them off in close combat. With the quality of twin-linked, it really does do that justice. Heck, Imperial Fists only get to re-roll 1s; good, yes, but if you went by the fluff you'd think they'd all be firing twin-linked Rapid Fire 10 Bolters from the hip at BS6, or that every Salamander can get a flamer or meltagun and wears their own personally-crafted set of Artificer Armour.

I've read a bunch of reviews of the unit, and I've seen nothing but complete praise for Vengeful Strike.

EDIT: I read something about Knights having a "Shield Wall" ability the turn they deep strike. I imagine it's a 2++, or something? If so, that sounds awfully useful. Furthermore, if you want to remove their* power fists, I'd say reduce their points by about 7-10.

EDIT2: * Deathwing Terminators.

As FirePainter pointed out above, weight of fire from the low model counts make it difficult. The other problem with your HF idea is that we scatter 33% of the time (unless in Belial's squad) and that most likely means you don't get your large number of hits as described. If I have 1850 points to play with, I only get about 30-35 models on the field. That is 3 units of 10 man strong terminators to put it in perspective, you can take about 100 marines for that same 1850 points for a LOT more dakka. I know that not many people would take 100 foot slogging marines, but it is simply a firepower comparison to points. It is a hell of a lot harder to kill those 100 marines than it is to kill 30 terminators simply in model weight, which is at the crux of what I am trying to solve, model weight. Not enough little plastic guns with guns...

Quality of twin linked is great, it's quantity that we are having problems with. Imperial fists may only reroll 1s, but they roll more dice to begin with. The more I run dice simulations and the few games we played with the rules, Heavy 3 SB when you DS is a nice solution...

Shield wall makes them T5 as long as they are base to base with 2 other "shield wall" people.

So my current proposal:
SB is Heavy 3 when you DS.
Terminator Squads loose natural PF and 10 points, may buy back PF for 10 points.
No penalty for keeping all Deathwing in reserve (implied in rules, just making it black and bone white)
Maybe gain your second heavy weapon at 7 bodies?
I still want the Multimelta as an option for lets say 15 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All of the suggestions given so far would be great ideas for slight alterations to DW. I also just found perusing the codex that HQs in Terminator armor get access to "Terminator Wargear" which only has one entry. Replace Storm Bolter with combi-flamer, plas, melta for 6 points. What if we opened this up to all terminator models, maybe just sergeants? Thoughts?

Why not using a big SS/TH, feel no pain honour guard to soak damage on the first turn? Fire magnet and bikers with scout for no scatter, sounds tottaly deathwing for me...

The CC unit teleport in near the enemies, the shoot gets far away (24"), shootsy and soak up, if the enemy dont kill the deathstart they will assault next turn and wreack havoc, if the enemy attack the deathstar, a new set of termies comes second turn and tear the enemy appart with twin-linked SB+heavy plasma...

Well, i would ever go for raven wing if DA, but this seens like a solid strategy... (and bring a Land Raider with you).

They don't need to be made into Chaos terminators

34 ppms the way they are would be fine,

just giving them 2 heavy weapons options from the get go would be perfectly fine. (it was fine in 3rd/4th it would be fine now)

Storm bolter be included with Banner of devestation
or maybe even better with banner of devestation
maybe heavy 6-8? (1 bolter is slavo 2/4 so 4 shots at 24 and the stormbolter is basically two bolters, so we skip the twin-linked for a massive DAKKA boost).

weapon options
replace Powerfist and/or stormbolter with
Lightining claw................free
chain fist...........................free
Thunder hammer..........free
Stormshield.....................free

Mayreplace both weapons for
pair of lighining claws............ free
thunderhammer stormshield......... Free

heavy weapons retain their standar cost


All of these to keep their points low, I know they are terminators but terminators are over costed in a world of AP 2 spam.


Now lets see what we could get with the above
lets say 5 Deathwing terminators
the 4 that can drop their powerfists for stormshields
and they take 2 CML

total cost 220 pts

now lets say they are within 6 inches of Deathwing commandsquad that has the same loadout as them (except that one is an apoth) an additional 315 points woops forgot Belial so 505 pts
now for 725 pts you would get

8, str 8 ap 3 missile shots

or 66-88 Str 4 ap 5 shots (depending if Banner made stormbolter heavy 6-8)

Keep in mind that all of these units would be 2+ 3++ (except for belial(4++), apoth, sgt)

is 725pts for 11 models to dish out that much dakka to much?

not really when compaired to what standard marines/anyone else can bring in that point range

 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Why not using a big SS/TH, feel no pain honour guard to soak damage on the first turn?

That is about 500-525 points

 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Fire magnet and bikers with scout for no scatter, sounds tottaly deathwing for me...

A Ravenwing squad of bikers that will work like that is about another 200, lets take 2 for redundency because 1 will get shot of the table by tau with firepower to spare and we want a beacon around if we go second. We also need two troop choices to make it "legal" so lets just take two farily basic Terminator Squads, total so far is about 1400 (23 models)

 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

The CC unit teleport in near the enemies, the shoot gets far away (24"), shootsy and soak up

So Belial joins the Deathstar and show up point blank, the two troop terminators DS with no scatter (beacons) about 24" from enemy and light them up with their 32 Storm Bolter and 8 Assault Cannon shots (28.5 SB hits and 7 AC hits). The bikers shoot their bolters for 21.3 hits (assuming no special weapons)

 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
if the enemy dont kill the deathstart they will assault next turn and wreack havoc, if the enemy attack the deathstar, a new set of termies comes second turn and tear the enemy appart with twin-linked SB+heavy plasma...

So we now add another Terminator Squad with a Plasma Cannon to the mix to bring our grand total up to 1650 about, and why are we bringing him in turn 2? Wouldn't it be nice to shoot that plasma cannon turn 1? That new squad opens up with the other terminators (assuming no casualties) for a grand total of 28.3 SB, 5 AC hits and one small blast of plasma. So turn two we have laid down 57.1 SB hits, 12 AC hits 42.6 TL bolter hits from bikers, one small blast plasma and charged with our deathstar. All of this assuming no casualties.

Note that the bikers dakka just as well model/model as the terminators for HALF THE COST and a 3+armor/5+cover/scout/hit and run/T5 model. Hell Drakes and Tau not withstanding, there are not many units that can ignore both of those saves and the bikers have the advantage of mobility and T5 over the terminators let alone scout. There is a reason that Ravenwing is a thing right now and not Deathwing my friend.

 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

Well, i would ever go for raven wing if DA, but this seens like a solid strategy... (and bring a Land Raider with you).

So adding in a LRC to the mix will put us at about 2000 points with 16 terminators, 12 bikers and a land raider, 28 models and an AV 14 transport tank that isn't transporting anything. If we put deathwing knights into that LRC like we should if we take an LRC then we are over 2250 and playing in apocolypse with 33 models, a single land raider and only 10 scoring MODELS in 2 units.

Scoring bodies matter in 6th edition, you must find a way to make your scoring units viable in your army now. Taking 2 minimum scout squads is no longer an option to win in 6th edition, they will die early and then you have nothing to claim objectives. Deathwing have very durable scoring units, but if you only have 2 units of 10 terminators I can use maybe 1000 points of my army to kill them pretty well and win the game by surviving the remainder of your forces. In order to have scoring left at the end you have to have weight of models to survive what your opponent will throw at them. Right now Terminators are overpriced for what you get, we can cheapen them up or tack on more rules but 10 scoring models isn't gonna cut it in 6th edition. A 20% reduction in price is a good start IMO, it sounds severe but consider what you can buy in your list with an extra 40 points a squad. You could straight up make every terminator squad you had 6 men instead of 5 and have points left over for maybe making him TH/SS.


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 Ninjacommando wrote:
I know they are terminators but terminators are over costed in a world of AP 2 spam.

In the current meta I would make terminators cheaper and the 3++ more expensive. Say 34 points a terminator and charge them a full 20 for TH/SS. It's the 3++ that is FAR more valuable than the 2+ in this plasma crazy world. I thought plasma was a "rare" technology that only Ryza really knows how to make right?

so 54 ppm for TH/SS terminators? ehh noo if you want terminators to be a viable army list their overall cost needs to be kept low.

34 ppm free weapon upgrades and still charging them for heavy weapons is fine