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Hello everyone.

Now, I am going to level with all of you. I have a Horus Heresy army that I want to finally add some troops to. Can I use the standard GW termies or are they a post war armor mark? I can't seem to get a straight answer from the few sources I know of.

My second question is probably going to be a bit more contentious but... say a renegade or traitor marine chapter was running short on battle brothers and needed crew for their vehicles. Could they use regular but highly trained humans for this task or does something about Space Marine vehicles (Or the way they are used) make them hazardous to human life?

Question 1-I am under the impression that the Termies are a post-heresy armour mark, merely because of HH Termies made by FW, but in the Codices, you can see BL Termies in the M41 marks.(Of course, it's entirely possible that they stole them from loyalists.) And of course, the fluff is entirely what you decide you like.
Question 2- I have never read about such a scenario in the fluff, but again, it's entirely up to you.

Whelps, as far as I can tell, nothing in the FW Tataros and Tartaros TDA pages contradicts the probability of Legion Astartes using the common/Indomitus Pattern terminator armor.

I would say the GW terminators are just as fitting as their FW counter-parts.

As for vehicles, many argued that just like SM chapter fleets, their vehicles are probably manned by chapter serfs (being serfs, there can be many of them, and considering how many slaves are used to run a BFG cruiser, one would assume that they have reserves as well). That or, servitors, lots of em'

Either way, CSM warbands can do the same. Slaves, renegades, and heretics, overseen by one Marine. More than enough to deal with shortage of CSMs.

Chapter serfs fly the SM spaceships, so there's no logical reason they couldn't also drive the tanks. I think in either event at least one (if not all) the crew would be AdMech trained, but that's just my own take on it.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Chapter serfs fly the SM spaceships, so there's no logical reason they couldn't also drive the tanks. I think in either event at least one (if not all) the crew would be AdMech trained, but that's just my own take on it.

Well it's unlikely... since to be an Admech trainee have to enter an oath that bonds them to the Omnissiah. One such oath that the Mechanicus doesn't allow for people to take easily. Tech Marines can do be trained by the Mechanicus because an ancient pact between the SM and AdMech. It's unlikely serfs got simply sent off to Mars and they just kind of, you know, teach them even a single bit of their knowledge. Though I might be talking out of my behind when I was speaking of the serfs and Mech training.

All that they needed to know is how to operate this machine, and of course all the prayers and stuffs that came with working on such HOLY RELICS. Tech Marines, together with their servitors (supposedly amount to hundreds, which the Techmarines are responsible for), maintains the chapter's weaponry of war. So there is no need for the serfs to have tech trainings.

I would just have to shave off the Crux Terminatus, yes? Or was that on terminator suits during the war?

Also, I would imagine that the Tech marines would probably be in charge of their training so that they apply the appropriate litanies and oils.

Based on the Tartaros-pattern Terminator armour Forge World sells I'd advise cutting off the Crux Terminatus and maybe coming up with alternate heads. I'd also advise sticking to Terminators rather than Cataphractii, that'd get too confusing.

Well, I do want to argue with you about that, but I did hear somewhere that the IG guards needs to learn to disassemble and reassemble their weapons (high-tech weapons excluded, for obviously reasons. I believe the Regimental Techpriests deal with that). Given the shortage of man power of the Chapters, you might be on to something with that...

But I did mention the prayers and "stuffs" (which I admit that's a pretty broad term) that the serfs might need to know. But that's only on a need-to-know bases.

Regardless of course, heretics and renegades probably care little for such details...

You don't need to go to Mars or be AdMech-approved to learn the Holy Rite of Refuelling the Holy Rhino of the Holy Chapter with Holy Fuel.

Also, from Forge World:

Tartaros-Pattern Terminator Armour page wrote:Tactical Dreadnought Armour, or Terminator Armour as it is more usually known, is the most resilient form of personal protection available to the Adeptus Astartes. Originally developed during the closing years of the Great Crusade, and adapted from the heaviest of industrial gear, several types and patterns were developed concurrently.

EDIT:

Cataphractii-Pattern Terminator Armour page wrote:... although this formidable protection came at the cost of the wearer’s speed, and the trade between agility and survivability meant that this pattern was beginning to decline among some Legions at the outbreak of the Heresy.

EDIT2: Couldn't find much on the Crux, although Lexicanum does have "Legend has it that the first Crux Terminatus ever crafted contained a tiny fragment of the Emperor's own armour within it.", which would support that. Also, as far as I am aware, there are no Crux Terminatus on any of the FW pre-Heresy Terminators.

But when you refuel the sacred relic rhino armoured vehicle did you recite the litany of "sorry I let the holy promethean run dry", and then recite the litany of "sorry but I need to unscrew the cap to the fuel tank now, I would very much appreciate if you do not blow up if that's alright", while uncapping the tank, and then reciting the litany of "Oh only sprite please accept the offering of fuel to your tummy, and bless me with you graceful acceptance", and then clean the spilled fuel while repeating the litany of "in the most holy of forms I beg your forgiveness for the stain I so carelessly left on you", following by chanting the litany of "oh in thy holy name, almighty omnissiah, please forgive us for our failure to provide you with sufficient amount of fuel, and please grant use your prowess to crush our most foul foes with our offering"?
Cause, you know, these are all kinda... eh, important

Of course! But again, those don't require AdMech training specifically. As others have said, anything requiring that level of tech-knowledge would be handled by the Chapter's Techmarines or even Master of the Forge.

Honestly, I see 3 levels to the serfs in the chapter:

Slave: Pick the worst jobs. That would be these guys.

Servants: These are the medial assistants, running errands for the marines. You would see these as the ones given laborious tasks, but in much better overall prospects than the slaved ones. Food prep, cleaning the habitable areas, etc would be on the list.

Man-servants: This is the highest rank that a serf can probably reach, being the personal servant to a specific member of the chapter, and handling personal instructions. Such things might be a personal assistant to the chapter master, carrying missives on a semi-diplomatic mission. Another possibility is a worker under the techmarines for work that is too specific and complex for a servitor, but beneath a techmarine's dignity, like being a transport driver, moving vehicles to specific areas of the motor pool for servicing, or even going with marines to help unload a new shipment of weapons or vehicles on a waiting transport.

If anything, I would have a hard time seeing no rank system among the serfs. Even the servants of one particular Lord in Victorian times had ranks among themselves, and all they had to manage was a single house, much less an entire military organisation!

My explanation for the obvious Marine-pilots of the various aircraft is that aircraft are too precious to the Chapter to allow a mere human to pilot, and the enhanced reflexes and thought-processing ability of a Space Marine benefits flying sufficiently. Also a Marine would be able to handle higher g-forces than a normal human, and would be able to have centuries of experience (not that I can see those bricks with jet engines doing any skilled/reflexive/etc flying, but I digress). This is supported by Storm Ravens having a Servitor in the top turret, but a Tech Marine in the pilot seat.

That said, if I ever get a Storm Raven I am putting a Servo-Skull (or several in a sort of skull-array) in the top turret, because Servitors are ugly and plugging a brain directly into the machine has to be more efficient than using a body as a medium. Also because I really like the skull-controlled turrets in the Space Marine game.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
If anything, I would have a hard time seeing no rank system among the serfs. Even the servants of one particular Lord in Victorian times had ranks among themselves, and all they had to manage was a single house, much less an entire military organisation!

My explanation for the obvious Marine-pilots of the various aircraft is that aircraft are too precious to the Chapter to allow a mere human to pilot, and the enhanced reflexes and thought-processing ability of a Space Marine benefits flying sufficiently. Also a Marine would be able to handle higher g-forces than a normal human, and would be able to have centuries of experience (not that I can see those bricks with jet engines doing any skilled/reflexive/etc flying, but I digress). This is supported by Storm Ravens having a Servitor in the top turret, but a Tech Marine in the pilot seat.

That said, if I ever get a Storm Raven I am putting a Servo-Skull (or several in a sort of skull-array) in the top turret, because Servitors are ugly and plugging a brain directly into the machine has to be more efficient than using a body as a medium. Also because I really like the skull-controlled turrets in the Space Marine game.

This makes a lot of sense, Frozen Ocean, thank you.

Another fluff question: When were purity seals introduced? Are they another post heresy convention or were they given out during or before?

The Terminator armour wargear entry in Betrayal says:
"Several different Terminator armour patterns were developed roughly concurrently by different Forge Worlds during the later decades of the Great Crusade, including Indomitus, Tartaros and Saturnine patterns which are functionally identical"

Regular plastic Terminators are Indomitus pattern.

Purity seals would be post-Heresy or late-Heresy, earlier marines didn't go in for such mumbo jumbo. Oaths of the moment however could look the same however.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

This makes a lot of sense, Frozen Ocean, thank you.

Another fluff question: When were purity seals introduced? Are they another post heresy convention or were they given out during or before?

You're welcome! c:

Considering how much of a huge atheist the Emperor was, I would say that purity seals were either entirely post-Heresy or used exclusively by the Word Bearers pre-Heresy (carrying purity seals on your armour is quite literally bearing words, of which we know they are quite fond). I would even go as far as to suggest that the tradition of purity seals may have originated from the region of Colchis where Lorgar was from. The Imperial Truth came from Lorgar, so there's no reason why other things of religious significance didn't. I think as well that, if they were more than just religion, we'd see more purity seals on non-WB Chaos Marines; they'd remove anything specific to the Emperor because of their major daddy issues, but anything like lists of heroic battles, lists of the names of defeated foes, etc, would have no reason to be removed. All we have is the Dark Apostle, and his bars of soap and toilet-roll streamers are very obviously Chaos scripture.

EDIT: I mean that Lorgar may have specifically named his Legion after his intent to literally make them "bear words" in the form of each Marine going through a special rite whereupon incense is lit, their armour is anointed in glue, and they roll around in a huge pile of religious papers until the glue dries.

EDIT2:

 Gashrog wrote:
Purity seals would be post-Heresy or late-Heresy, earlier marines didn't go in for such mumbo jumbo. Oaths of the moment however could look the same however.

I would consider them the same on a model, though I think the Oath of Moment is a much cooler idea than a purity seal. Any idea if they're sworn in the same way? From the HH novels, usually a brother marine has to hear the Oath sworn from the mouth of the swearee.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:
Purity seals would be post-Heresy or late-Heresy, earlier marines didn't go in for such mumbo jumbo. Oaths of the moment however could look the same however.

I would consider them the same on a model, though I think the Oath of Moment is a much cooler idea than a purity seal. Any idea if they're sworn in the same way? From the HH novels, usually a brother marine has to hear the Oath sworn from the mouth of the swearee.

What exactly is an oath of the moment? Is it sort of the same thing as a purity seal (when issued to encourage marines) but more secular?

The pre-Heresy purity seal is probably less an Ecclesiarchy thing (people worshipping the Emperor as a god was happening during his lifetime, the Emperor-as-atheist thing is relatively new) and more a Mechanicus thing, since the daemons-as-rogue-programs predates the Heresy by a great deal.

On question 2, i'd say there is a problem of size. In the fluff, anytime a human enter a SM vehicule, there is a lengthy description of the fact that he is like a child in a regular sized car.

Since the chapter is renegade, just possess the vehicule. Easier.

No one needs admech training to drive a tank, that is just a ridiculous statement. The Tech-priests assigned to Guard Regiments and Tech Marines in Codex chapters maintain the vehicles. But driving them or manning guns is no harder than it is to drive a car today. There are billions of vehicles in the imperium, it would be insane to expect only mechanicum personel to be able to drive them.

In answer to the OPs question, no, there is no difference in functionality between Legion wargear and Imperial Guard vehicles, except for proportion. But it would be easy to adapt the seating and controls for a human to operate. In the Night Lords Trilogy, the Exalted's warband is so undermanned that is cannot afford to waste Marines as pilots, so it has trained slaves flying their Thunderhawks, it would be no hassle at all to allow serfs to crew a Rhino. It would just be a desperate situation as a lot of the Astartes would not feel comfortable putting their lives in the hands of a human pilot when a marine with superior reactions would do a better job. But yes, for your fluff reasons, it works.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:

In answer to the OPs question, no, there is no difference in functionality between Legion wargear and Imperial Guard vehicles, except for proportion. But it would be easy to adapt the seating and controls for a human to operate. In the Night Lords Trilogy, the Exalted's warband is so undermanned that is cannot afford to waste Marines as pilots, so it has trained slaves flying their Thunderhawks, it would be no hassle at all to allow serfs to crew a Rhino. It would just be a desperate situation as a lot of the Astartes would not feel comfortable putting their lives in the hands of a human pilot when a marine with superior reactions would do a better job. But yes, for your fluff reasons, it works.

Septimus pilots the hell out of that thunderhawk! I am straining my memory but I do want to say there was reference to it being awkward due to the controls being made for astartes size and also that even though Septimus was a fine pilot he wasn't as good as enhanced astartes. The Nightlords 10th are basically the exact situation OP describes; in constant dire need of manpower and resources. Additionally Septimus (and other slaves) serve as artificers, skillfully repairing power armor and weapons (without any prayers to the thrice damned Emperor or Machine Spirit).

JubbJubbz wrote:

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:

In answer to the OPs question, no, there is no difference in functionality between Legion wargear and Imperial Guard vehicles, except for proportion. But it would be easy to adapt the seating and controls for a human to operate. In the Night Lords Trilogy, the Exalted's warband is so undermanned that is cannot afford to waste Marines as pilots, so it has trained slaves flying their Thunderhawks, it would be no hassle at all to allow serfs to crew a Rhino. It would just be a desperate situation as a lot of the Astartes would not feel comfortable putting their lives in the hands of a human pilot when a marine with superior reactions would do a better job. But yes, for your fluff reasons, it works.

Septimus pilots the hell out of that thunderhawk! I am straining my memory but I do want to say there was reference to it being awkward due to the controls being made for astartes size and also that even though Septimus was a fine pilot he wasn't as good as enhanced astartes. The Nightlords 10th are basically the exact situation OP describes; in constant dire need of manpower and resources. Additionally Septimus (and other slaves) serve as artificers, skillfully repairing power armor and weapons (without any prayers to the thrice damned Emperor or Machine Spirit).

I think the moment you are referring to is in Soul Hunter. Septimus orginally piloted the Thunderhawk 'Blackened' which has been modded for him to fit but I'm sure there is a bit where he has to pilot a different Thunderhawk (the ones which can transport Landraiders) that has not been adjusted to account for his size and he finds it awkward but not impossible. I definitely recommend the OP read the Night Lords trilogy if he wants to know about traitors scraping by with minimal resources.