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While waiting for the new Blood Angel codex, we'd like to make house rules for a Blood Angels Chapter Tactics to use with the Space Marines codex so they're a bit more competitive.

We'd like to get thoughts on these for their chapter tactics.

Lucifer Pattern Engines - All tanks, other than the Land Raiders, must be upgraded to take Lucifer engines for an additional 10 points. This adds Fast to the type of vehicle.

Red Thirst - At the beginning of each of your turns, each unit must take a Red Thirst test (Leadership test). If the unit fails the test, the unit succumbs to the Red Thirst until the beginning of their next turn. If the unit is locked in combat when they take the Red Thirst test, they suffer a -2 to their leadership for the test. A unit that was under the influence of the Red Thirst at the end of your opponents turn, and is locked in combat, automatically fails the test.

Any unit that succumbs to the Red Thirst, and any attached IC that has the Chapter Tactics: Blood Angels, instantly gain Fearless, Furious Charge, Feel No Pain, Fleet, and Rage universal special rules. In addition, the unit must move their full possible distance in a straight line towards the closest enemy non-vehicle unit within LOS during the movement phase, and must declare a charge if possible in the Assault Phase. If the unit decides to fire in the shooting phase, they may only fire Pistol, Template, and Assault weapons. They may only shoot at or run towards the closest non-vehicle enemy unit within LOS.

While the unit has succumbed to the Red Thirst, IC's that are not Blood Angels must leave the squad as soon as possible, and no IC can join the squad.

Units Units in the Blood Angel Codex can be taken with the rules and points listed in the Codex if the unit does not exist in the Space Marine Codex (Dante, Mephiston, Baal Predator, Death Company, etc..). In addition, Assault Marines are taken as Troop choices in a detachment with Chapter Tactics: Blood Angels.

Shadow of the Primarch (Astorath). Units that take a moral test also succumb to the Red Thirst of any result adding up to an odd number (3,5,7,9,11)


We thought lowering the points for Lucifer engines to 10 points would be similar to Salamanders getting free MC (5 points). We also thought about making this optional, but as we're playing as if it's 995.M41, it's after the upgrades where made fleet wide for the BA. Then again it may not be in all successor chapters. Thoughts on the fluff here?

The Red Thirst sorta feels complicated, but it's to try and match the fluff a little more while also making it worthwhile.

Thoughts on rules of fluff here?

No.

Lucifer Patter engines are part of BA vehicles. They aren't normal and certain tanks get Lucifer engines.

Fearless, Furious Charge, Feel No Pain, Fleet, and Rage? on a one? One sixth chance for all of that? That is OP. Astorath makes it even more OP. There are things that make you take a moral test to do something, and there is a half chance of rolling that?

Too OP.

 Glorywarrior wrote:
No.

Lucifer Patter engines are part of BA vehicles. They aren't normal and certain tanks get Lucifer engines.

Fearless, Furious Charge, Feel No Pain, Fleet, and Rage? on a one? One sixth chance for all of that? That is OP. Astorath makes it even more OP. There are things that make you take a moral test to do something, and there is a half chance of rolling that?

Too OP.

Fair on the engines.

We're not including the 'roll a 1 at beginning of the game'. Instead it's only during the Moral tests that it can happen, and they can lose them every turn. Maybe instead have the moral check at the end of their assault phase for units not in close combat that have succumbed, and have it just a pass/fail rather than including the doubles. I've updated my original post to reflect this.

Why don't you make them take one at the beginning of the war with a minus 2 modifier, then just take a regular one for the rest of the game at the end of the turn.

I think they should lose fleet at lease, and maybe even FNP.

You mean a Ld check at the beginning (or end) of every turn for each unit, and if they fail they are thirsty? Then do a modifier on the first turn of -2 on their Ld? That could be a lot of leadership tests, but that might work.

You really think Fleet and FNP make it too OP? FNP isn't as powerful as it was in 5th, and you can easily enough give everyone FNP with priests. The fleet helps get them into close combat, something that most armies that want to assault can struggle with. If they don't make the assault, FC and Rage are useless, so they become Fearless models that you can't control.

Alright, I hear what you are saying.

Anyway, at the beginning of the game take a leadership test.

Then do another test at the end of each friendly turn with no modifier.

That sound a little better?

Very simple. Assume these changes are for the Vanilla codex.

Chapter Tactics Blood Angels

The Red Thirst (as is)

Descent of Angels.



Dante, Mephiston, Seth, Astorath, Sanguinor and Tycho rolled in as is with a "BA detachment only" badge.

Death Company and DCD added to Troops with same restrictions.
Dreadnoughts may upgrade to a Furioso or Librarian Dreadnought for the points difference as now, but not a Venerable if so.
Sang Guard are alternate to Honour Guard, one for each Chapter Master including Dante and Seth, but no regular HG, in a BA detachment.
Mephiston, Astorath, Cpt Tycho all unlock a Command Squad, no more independent priests and Chaplains.
Any BA vehicle may take Lucifer Pattern Engines (Fast vehicle) at +10pts.
A JP Captain or CM, including Dante, makes Assault Squads troops.



Other than that, enough with the Deep striking Land Raiders and move them back to HS where they belong. Crying for individuality? Suck it up and swallow the Centurians, Stalkers and Hunters being forced down your throat.

Have a good day.

The above is one of the most stupid things I have ever heard.

No troop assault squads? No Deep Striking Land Raiders? No Lucifer Pattern Engines? If you really aren't good enough to know how to beat BA (One of the least competitive armies) then you should get some personal tutoring.

If you want to play space marines, play space marines.

 Glorywarrior wrote:
The above is one of the most stupid things I have ever heard.

No troop assault squads? No Deep Striking Land Raiders? No Lucifer Pattern Engines? If you really aren't good enough to know how to beat BA (One of the least competitive armies) then you should get some personal tutoring.

If you want to play space marines, play space marines.

Deadshot wrote:Any BA vehicle may take Lucifer Pattern Engines (Fast vehicle) at +10pts.
A JP Captain or CM, including Dante, makes Assault Squads troops.

???
Deep striking Land Raiders is the stupidest thing I have ever head. A heavy assault vehicle being limited to being dropped from orbit? And since when did the BA find enough Land Raiders to outfit every squad in the chapter? Mind sharing with the rest of us? Leave them in heavy support, where they belong, like every other chapter. Even the GK don't have enough resources to give everyone a Land Raider.

And, I do.

Oh, and I have a couple mates who play BA, and aside from cheesy-rolling on Sang Guard (roll one save at a time), I win every single time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, to prove my suggestions are beneficial;

Gains for BA being rolled into the 6th Ed Marine codex

Gain access to;
Stormtalon
Centurians
Ironclad Dreadnought
Thunderfire Cannon
Master of the Forge
Command Squads for Chaplains and Librarians (ie, Mephiston and Astorath)
Cheaper squads
Legion of the Damned
Fast vehicles now cheaper and Fast and therefore, Fast Tax (the sequel to F&F 7) is not mandatory.



Losses

Deep Striking Land Raider DTs (dumb idea imo)
Cheesy Sang Priests running around solo
Chaplains running around solo and in 2 slots. Probably gonna lose in next codex anyway.
Sang Guard as an Honour Guard rather than a squad, as they should be.
Vanguard Veterans lose Deep Strike assault. Will be lost in next codex anyway.

Or...Leave 'em alone instead of apparently complaining about them? I'll take what I got now over simply gaining access to the C:SM stuff.

 troa wrote:
Or...Leave 'em alone instead of apparently complaining about them? I'll take what I got now over simply gaining access to the C:SM stuff.

Could do. I'm just chucking in my input as to how they could effectively be rolled in. I was entirely against BA getting rolled in when the 6th Ed rumours started, but after seeing how simple it would be, it would be a simple task.

I don't give a flying monkeyfeth either way, just giving my ideas.

I'm no where near a BA expert but wouldn't It be better to give Decent of Angels something like:

Any Blood Angel unit equipped with jump packs May chose to either scatter 1d6 less when arriving from deep strike or attempt a charge (no unit may benefit from hammer of wrath)

Gives the opportunity for some of the heavy hitters to get into combat but there is still a chance of failing the charge roll oh as well as receiving a decrease in points for certain units?

I do think Red Thirst needs a tweak but for every bonus there should be a draw back, maybe like Mephiston used to "feed" on the fallen afterward, FNP wouldn't be a good option as it would make the sanguinary priest a redundant option if there is a chance of getting it on a die roll.

Again I'm only just getting back into them but it's my thoughts....

GW doesn't want to have units assaulting from deep striking.

I updated it so it's more based on their leadership value. Slightly different, where the penalty is based on if they're locked in combat.

I doubt they'll lose the priests or guard.

As for the Land Raiders, I'm impartial. The deep striking is to represent them coming in via Thunderhawk, which is a Forgeworld unit. As for dedicated, I prefer the option of taking it as a dedicated, rather than having to or not being able too. At least for the Terminator units.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

PastelAvenger wrote:

I do think Red Thirst needs a tweak but for every bonus there should be a draw back, maybe like Mephiston used to "feed" on the fallen afterward, FNP wouldn't be a good option as it would make the sanguinary priest a redundant option if there is a chance of getting it on a die roll.

Again I'm only just getting back into them but it's my thoughts....

The major drawback is that you can't control them, or shoot Bolters or Heavy/Salvo weapons at all. Could maybe make it so they can't shoot at all. The other is that they're fearless, which isn't always better than ATSKNF, although is a benefit a little as well.

You can control them... You know what rage does now right?

Just because the thunderhawk is a forge world unit doesn't mean it doesn't exist in 40k world.

 Glorywarrior wrote:
You can control them... You know what rage does now right?

Just because the thunderhawk is a forge world unit doesn't mean it doesn't exist in 40k world.

Yes, that's why I wrote in basically what rage was in 5th after the USR's.

The Thunderhawk is in the 40k world... what?

Ah, I missed that.

Well, you said that Land Raiders might not be able to Deep Strike because the thunderhawk is forge world. But just because it is forge world doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the imaginary 40k universe.

Why not just keep blood angels as codex:blood angels, but reduce the cost of their units to be in line with codex:space marines? (With + 10 points on their vehicles that have the fast type)

For BA to be viable, they need to have lots of assault marines as a viable army.
The Raven Guards tactic of being able to use the jump pack for both moving and charging is good, but I wouldn't want to copy an existing chapter.
As long as bikes remain stupidly better than jump packs, BA will struggle to have a themed niche.


What about giving BA assault marines Jink, and have captains with jump packs unlock full sized assault squads as troops; kind of like how captains on bikes unlock full bike squads as troops for every other chapter.

I'd make Decent of Angels the Warlord trait for Dante.

You could make test for Red Fury take place every time you win an assault; leadership -2; gaining furious charge, feel no pain and rage, while losing 2 points of leadership.

Mech BA is fairly competitive. I just played a game today and they did well.

And I agree with EvilEyes.

 Glorywarrior wrote:
Mech BA is fairly competitive. I just played a game today and they did well.

And I agree with EvilEyes.

Mech BA is competitive, but doesn't really capture the feel of Blood Angels.

IMO, the defining aspect of BA should be assault squads first. If the codex allows for an effective mech build too, great. But first and foremost, assault squads.

Ah, if assault squads become viable then I will be very happy.